Help with wheel rim depth

NateTheGreat

Hey guys and gals!

I'm looking to upgrade my wheels to a set of carbon clinchers, but I'm having a problem figuring out which rim depth would suit my use. I'm in a mountainous area, but with a valley that is pretty flat. So I know I need an all around wheel but I can't decide between 3 depth sizes 45mm vs 50mm vs 58mm. They are almost all within the same price range and the weight difference isn't a lot (+- 10-20g). Which pair would be best for my situation?

Thanks!

ugo.santalucia

Pretty much all PROs are giving up on very deep wheels but for the flattest races, there must be a reason... I vote 45

dennisn

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Pretty much all PROs are giving up on very deep wheels but for the flattest races, there must be a reason... I vote 45

Could that reason be that the manufacturers are now pushing shallower rims for no other reason than to sell new stuff? Couple of years from now they will be back pushing a deep rim(as the greatest thing), and of course the pros will ride them and praise them until they are told to ride and praise something else.

cougie

How windy is it there?

I had 50mm rims but when I had to replace them I went conventional. Not looking as sexy but better for windy days.

Matthewfalle

I use 50mm and 60mm in the Abruzzo with no weight or wind issues at all. Giro climbs.

ugo.santalucia

dennisn wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Pretty much all PROs are giving up on very deep wheels but for the flattest races, there must be a reason... I vote 45

Could that reason be that the manufacturers are now pushing shallower rims for no other reason than to sell new stuff? Couple of years from now they will be back pushing a deep rim(as the greatest thing), and of course the pros will ride them and praise them until they are told to ride and praise something else.

There is an element of that, but if you race for a living the first rule is to bring the skin back home... PRO riders are very conservative and tend to choose the safest equipment they can use, just look at the all disc brakes saga... I suspect if they prefer to use shallower rims whenever the road is lumpy, it's because they are safer to ride in case of cross winds

charlie_potatoes

I live on an island and ride mostly 50mm. Wind is hardly ever an issue. More of a concern for me would be mountainous descents if you're thinking carbon clinchers. When I travel abroad for the lumpy stuff I opt for standard depth exalith rims as I value the braking over any aero benefit.

imposter2.0

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

I live on an island

As do most of us here, I suspect...

NateTheGreat

cougie wrote:

How windy is it there?

I had 50mm rims but when I had to replace them I went conventional. Not looking as sexy but better for windy days.

Up in the climbs there isn't really any wind, but then in the valley it can get windy. Actually seems like there is always a constant slight wind.

chippyk

Which one looks best on your bike?

mamil314

Find front 38 and rear 50

NateTheGreat

ChippyK wrote:

Which one looks best on your bike?

I found some stealth black ones that should look good on my bike. All three pairs look the same. They are all from the same brand.

cycleclinic

Wide u shaped 50mm deep rim are just fine. I dont travel to moutains so heat build up is an non issue. The upside carbon rims take alot of km to wear out. On windy days the wheels behave themselves.

dennisn

ChippyK wrote:

Which one looks best on your bike?

Strangely enough this is probably the best reason to buy a set of wheels. None of them are going to make you faster or slower than any of the rest of them. At least, in your own opinion, you'll look better while going as fast or slow on them.
I'll stick to my theory that people want to look like the pros and this is why new stuff(not necessarily better stuff) is coming on the market at a frantic pace and pros immediately start riding it. The manufacturers, meanwhile, know you're going to see it on a pro bike and / or in an ad and will have to have it. So, if you're hooked on looking like a pro and spending the money to do it then it's gonna cost ya but you'll be pretty. And that's what you wanted in the first place.

sloppyschleckonds

Go for 38mm, wont be affected by the wind, and probably offer zero aero benefit.

Look nice though.

mfin

As above.

If you're not racing it doesn't matter, if you are racing it still won't make barely any difference at all.

So, I'd assume you might have bought into the marketing of the aero advantages, or you love the look of them, or a bit of both, and because you're worried about side winds, just go for 38mm.

You live in a mountainous area though you say, so be prepared for the fact you are buying a compromised design when going for a carbon clincher and that you live in an area more likely to bring out those compromises - poor heat dissipation which could lead to blow outs, and of course inferior braking.

If you aren't spending a lot, say £500-600 then duff the idea off and get some shallower wheels and you'll get some seriously good ones for the same money.

dennisn

I'm thinking that the words "carbon clinchers" says it all. This is strictly a vanity purchase. Nothing to do with performance.

ugo.santalucia

Maybe this article will help

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/11/06/c ... and-power/

dennisn

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Maybe this article will help

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/11/06/c ... and-power/

I think the last two words says it all. "...Typically exaggerated....".

NateTheGreat

dennisn wrote:

I'm thinking that the words "carbon clinchers" says it all. This is strictly a vanity purchase. Nothing to do with performance.

It actually is to do with performance because the wheels I'm looking at are both clincher and tubeless (though the latter I didn't say). And also my current wheels are at least 10 years old and have thousands of Kms on them, so I though it would be nice to come into the modern age of wheels.
Performance side, I know they won't add much, but I did just get a more aero bike fit and some skin tight jerseys which help a lot more then wheels. But a 28mm rim will make my ride more comfortable and make cornering a lot bettter.
And you could cut the hypocrisy because I'm pretty sure you have made a lot of "vanity purchases" in the past too...

NateTheGreat

dennisn wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Maybe this article will help

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/11/06/c ... and-power/

I think the last two words says it all. "...Typically exaggerated....".

Yeah aero wheels don't do much in terms of aerodynamics. After carbon wheels allow for a better power transfer due to the more ridgid material and thus less power is lost in terms of vibration even though you give up some breaking power and confort.

NateTheGreat

mfin wrote:

As above.

If you're not racing it doesn't matter, if you are racing it still won't make barely any difference at all.

So, I'd assume you might have bought into the marketing of the aero advantages, or you love the look of them, or a bit of both, and because you're worried about side winds, just go for 38mm.

You live in a mountainous area though you say, so be prepared for the fact you are buying a compromised design when going for a carbon clincher and that you live in an area more likely to bring out those compromises - poor heat dissipation which could lead to blow outs, and of course inferior braking.

If you aren't spending a lot, say £500-600 then duff the idea off and get some shallower wheels and you'll get some seriously good ones for the same money.

I'm probably gonna go with like a 40-45mm wheel. After when I'm descending, I tend to not lay on the brakes. I can also go tubeless with these wheels because they provide rim tape and all for the conversion.

stueys

Personally I think my aero wheels make a difference, especially felt when you're battling into a head wind. I ride enve 4.5 (48mm front/56mm rear) which I think is about the perfect do-it-all wheel (other than stopping in the wet...). The current wider rim shape are fine in a strong wind. They are also very stiff, which makes them a nice climbing wheel.

Re carbon clinchers, they are fine as long as you understand the limitations inherent in the design. If I lived at the top of the Lancets de Montverniera I'd probably stick alloy ;-)

ugo.santalucia

NateTheGreat wrote:

dennisn wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Maybe this article will help

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/11/06/c ... and-power/

I think the last two words says it all. "...Typically exaggerated....".

Yeah aero wheels don't do much in terms of aerodynamics. After carbon wheels allow for a better power transfer due to the more ridgid material and thus less power is lost in terms of vibration even though you give up some breaking power and confort.

None of what you say makes much sense. Losses due to lack of "rigidity" are fractional and typically ignored in any calculation. The industry that sells stiffness is another one and generally doesn't back up their claim with any evidence.
At no point I claim that aero wheels don't do their job... however if you calculate the job they do, it might be less than you would be happy to pay money for... unless you race against the clock, in which case every second counts.

Hence, back to my advice, if you want carbon wheels, get the ones that are less likely to give you grief or the ones you like the most, because literally you are looking at seconds over several miles between them and fractions of a second over a Strava segment or similar pointless metric

imposter2.0

NateTheGreat wrote:

Yeah aero wheels don't do much in terms of aerodynamics. After carbon wheels allow for a better power transfer due to the more ridgid material and thus less power is lost in terms of vibration even though you give up some breaking power and confort.

Maybe they should change the name from 'aero wheels' to 'power transfer wheels' then? Seriously, I think you just made all that up.

NateTheGreat

ugo.santalucia wrote:

NateTheGreat wrote:

dennisn wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Maybe this article will help

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/11/06/c ... and-power/

I think the last two words says it all. "...Typically exaggerated....".

Yeah aero wheels don't do much in terms of aerodynamics. After carbon wheels allow for a better power transfer due to the more ridgid material and thus less power is lost in terms of vibration even though you give up some breaking power and confort.

None of what you say makes much sense. Losses due to lack of "rigidity" are fractional and typically ignored in any calculation. The industry that sells stiffness is another one and generally doesn't back up their claim with any evidence.
At no point I claim that aero wheels don't do their job... however if you calculate the job they do, it might be less than you would be happy to pay money for... unless you race against the clock, in which case every second counts.

Hence, back to my advice, if you want carbon wheels, get the ones that are less likely to give you grief or the ones you like the most, because literally you are looking at seconds over several miles between them and fractions of a second over a Strava segment or similar pointless metric

I was basing my claims of lack of ridgidity off of personal experience where I would loose a lot of power and control in turns and accelerating either in biking or skiing. I could actually feel a difference when I went from a flexible material to a more ridgid one.
Though I completely agree with the whole marginal gains part of your statement.
I am mainly looking for something with a wider rim just to replace my acient wheels that I think might have seen the war.

sloppyschleckonds

NateTheGreat wrote:

I am mainly looking for something with a wider rim just to replace my acient wheels that I think might have seen the war.

Maybe start a new thread asking 'what rim width would you recommend'

HTH

ugo.santalucia

NateTheGreat wrote:

I was basing my claims of lack of ridgidity off of personal experience where I would loose a lot of power and control in turns and accelerating either in biking or skiing. I could actually feel a difference when I went from a flexible material to a more ridgid one.

What do you mean by material? It's not the rim material that gives stiffness to a wheel... it's the rim depth, or if you prefer the bracing angle and spoke count, combined with a few other (minor) factors. The fact that deep rims are made of carbon is just down to the density of the material being more appealing to a weigh obsessed industry

mfin

ugo.santalucia wrote:

NateTheGreat wrote:

I was basing my claims of lack of ridgidity off of personal experience where I would loose a lot of power and control in turns and accelerating either in biking or skiing. I could actually feel a difference when I went from a flexible material to a more ridgid one.

What do you mean by material? It's not the rim material that gives stiffness to a wheel... it's the rim depth, or if you prefer the bracing angle and spoke count, combined with a few other (minor) factors. The fact that deep rims are made of carbon is just down to the density of the material being more appealing to a weigh obsessed industry

This is pretty much bang on.

Nate, your science is actually just your own logic and it doesn't really work with wheels.

That said, if you want wider rims fair enough, there's a lot of fuss over wider rims which is a bit 'meh' too, but if your current ones are so narrow you are stuck with 23's tops then maybe there's logic there. It's not logic that's going to improve your cornering though, not really, just a touch more comfort from the bigger tyres.

Mind you, you could well buy some and feel you were vindicated by your guesses as they might feel they bring what you wanted to the party even if they haven't, a lot of people fall into this trap. Don't worry though, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having nice wheels and for all we know your existing ones are a bit crap, and new wheels will certainly feel a bit different and you might well like the look of them and that can be reason enough to want some.

It sounds like 38's are right if you do go for deep section, so you've probably got the answer you were looking for. Happy purchasing.

mamil314

It's uncanny how most of carbon clincher issues go away with disc brakes. Almost as if it's meant to work that way..

Bobbinogs

Manc33, is that you?