Core Training

ajkerr73

Some of the core stuff I've looked at seems very complicated and time consuming (Tom D Core Advantage and the Bike Fit App for example)

Does anyone still just do sit ups, squats and the plank etc?

imposter2.0

Is there an option for none of the above?

sloppyschleckonds

Is there an option for core training with squats?

reacher

Core training is neither complicated or time consuming however it does take consistent effort and training to get results

fat daddy

lift the big 5 and you don't need any fancy core targeting ...... although have a 20kg child that you still pick up and move around and carry and you don't need the big 5

ajkerr73

fat daddy wrote:

lift the big 5 and you don't need any fancy core targeting ...... although have a 20kg child that you still pick up and move around and carry and you don't need the big 5

Apologies for the ignorance here..."The Big 5"??

fat daddy

Squat, Deadlift, Over head press, Bench and Row

Pretty much hits every muscle hard and because they are all compound lifts, uses a LOT of core and accessory muscles for stabilization.

guy.spartacus

I think he means

Squat - Deadlift - Bench Press - Overhead Press - Barbell Row/Power Clean (the last one can be a number of things)

edit: See above - these only really work your 'core' when the weights are heavy to be honest. Additional 'core' training is generally advised on top of this.

It really depends what you want to achieve though. I do the exercises mentioned above plus GHR, pull ups, ab wheel roll outs, sit ups on my GHR and various other things.

Thigh_burn

Just don't do situps they'll bugger up your back.

fat daddy

guy.spartacus wrote:

edit: See above - these only really work your 'core' when the weights are heavy to be honest. Additional 'core' training is generally advised on top of this..

I agree ..... the weights need to be heavy .. ie minimum of bench press 1 x body weight, squat 1.5 x bodyweight, deadlift 2 x body weight

follow something like the stronglifts 5x5 programme .... although at this sort of weight after squatting and deadlifting, your commute to work WILL be slow as your legs will be shot !

diy

Technique is everything when doing free weights. But there are plenty of days of the week that you don' just need to back to back the big groups. While I am a big weights fan, I do it for reasons other than to improve my cycling. Better core exercises (and there is nothing wrong with plank, crunches and leg raises) would be something like TRX ropes, which you can easily do as High intensity intervals. I do TRX running on the spot, pikes and side crunches to help improve the TVA muscles which wont get worked too well doing sit-ups. I do them as 20s on 10s recovery and you can get quite a sweat on.

"Just cycling" may work for some, but its not great for most people who also need to consider addressing the damage it causes to muscles.

guy.spartacus

fat daddy wrote:

I agree ..... the weights need to be heavy .. ie minimum of bench press 1 x body weight, squat 1.5 x bodyweight, deadlift 2 x body weight

follow something like the stronglifts 5x5 programme .... although at this sort of weight after squatting and deadlifting, your commute to work WILL be slow as your legs will be shot !

This sort of training is ideal for getting stronger - not so conducive to endurance work though and probably not beneficial for cycling.

Tashman

Pilates was great for me

fat daddy

endurance ... no, but at the level of a amateur cyclist it isn't going to reduce performance in anyway.

If you look at the sprinters in pro cycling, Saga, Cavendish Greipel, Kittel, they ALL do strength based work to improve performance and fast twitch response ... yet are still capable of completing a grand tour in the time limits, as well as pushing out over 1500w in sprints

did you see that episode of Guy Martins speed, it took him 6 seconds to reach 1000w ..... decent strength training could have seriously got that down to 1sec !

If nothing else a mate of mine put his back out lifting his bike off the roof of his car ..... at was a 11kg bike,I could have done that 1 handed, several times.

but yes, if your goal is to be no more than weekend, nice trip out on the bike with a club and bnot be knackered at the end of it, it wont help and you also probably don't need to train your core, just go cycling it will sort itself out

diy

fat daddy wrote:

If nothing else a mate of mine put his back out lifting his bike off the roof of his car ..... at was a 11kg bike,I could have done that 1 handed, several times.

This hasn't really got anything to do with how strong he is or isn't. I can bench twice my bodyweight, but I still put my back out lifting a 25kg water carrier. Why? because I'd been driving all day (sitting down puts 3 times the load on your back), picked it up badly, because it was only 25kg and I'm strong and my muscles were cold. Not to mention that I'm actually quite old now

EBEB

I did quite a lot of core stuff, but it was all symmetrical. E.g.. Front squats (more core than rear squats)/sit ups/leg raises etc.

High FPS running video showed one sided hip drop. Probably would have been able to see it on turbo, but exaggerated by running. I was good at anything that required both sides.

Now I do single legged squats without any weights. It has mostly gone. I will be adding some weights to it when I get better, but they'll still be a lot smaller than I usually squat. I'm also going to transfer them to a wobble board, but again i'm not good enough yet. I'd recommend that at least part of core exercises is unilateral and single legged squats are easy to to anywhere.

guy.spartacus

fat daddy wrote:

If nothing else a mate of mine put his back out lifting his bike off the roof of his car ..... at was a 11kg bike,I could have done that 1 handed, several times.

That doesn't mean he is weak though does it?

I deadlift north of twice bodyweight (200kg), squat twice my bodyweight (180kg) and bench nearly 1.5 times (135kg) - I still managed to hurt myself throwing my 3 year old, 20kg nephew into a pool

reacher

If your going to do cycling specific core work then deadlifts and bench press would be pretty near the bottom of the list in fact deadlifts probably wouldn't be on it their are far better ways to work the core than dragging huge amounts of weight off the floor not that it won't work the core, even more so as you age I would leave them alone so few people have developed the other muscles in older age to be able to do this lift correctly with heavy weights which is invariably the route people go down in gyms they want to see weights on the end of the bar regardless of proper form and deadlifts are notorious for this as are squats where people only go half way down

imposter2.0

Cycling gives the core muscles a pretty good workout for cycling

reacher

Depends, if you have the same genetics as Eddy Merckx then more than likely you don't need to do anything but ride a bike if your not one of the chosen few that nature has blessed with natural talent then your going to have to look at other ways to improve your performance this may or may not include doing stuff to strengthen parts of your physique that unfortunaly your inherited genes have not come up to the standard required to propel your bike at ungodly speeds, this could of course mean doing more cycling as well

reacher

On a more serious note if your 20 and riding for team sky then your training will be differant than if your a 55 year old who has worked in a office all his life the benifets of doing other training to supplement cycling as you age are well documented training as you age is differant to training when your young

fat daddy

reacher wrote:

On a more serious note if your 20 and riding for team sky then your training will be differant than if your a 55 year old who has worked in a office all his life

pretty much this !!!

there is no right or wrong, what you do is totally dependent on your level, age and goals.

imposter2.0

reacher wrote:

Depends, if you have the same genetics as Eddy Merckx then more than likely you don't need to do anything but ride a bike if your not one of the chosen few that nature has blessed with natural talent then your going to have to look at other ways to improve your performance this may or may not include doing stuff to strengthen parts of your physique that unfortunaly your inherited genes have not come up to the standard required to propel your bike at ungodly speeds, this could have course mean doing more cycling as well

Surely it's the same for everyone though, Merckx or otherwise. If you ride a bike, all the muscles involved in you riding a bike will get used according to the demands you place on them. That means the 'core' too, I would have thought.

That's not to say core training is not useful if you have a functional issue or previously diagnosed weakness or injury.

reacher

It is your right, but for a lot of average ability cyclists then doing additional gym work can reap quite a benifet but that's subjective theirs as many people who say its a waste of time as their are who say its usefull probably more who say its of no use at all to be fair but then you could argue that the ones who say it is a waste of time have no experience to base this assumption on because they don't do any because they consider it a waste of time

EBEB

Particularly at this time of year, quite a lot of people can't get out of town while it is still light and are resorting to training on a Turbo Trainer. I don't think using one works the core muscles enough.

I have a set of rollers too. It feels like it works core muscles, but I'm not sure they are the same ones as cycling properly. Trying to learn new tricks certainly makes then ache (e.g. One foot unclipped whilst no handed). I'd still do core exercises in addition though. And, there are only so many tricks to learn.

reacher

As an older cyclist myself I personally want to have longevity as a goal so for me gym work ie stretching and weights etc plays a very important role in my training if. It would be interesting to hear from older cyclists who have not done any additional training such as core work/gym work to supplement their cycling have they noticed any difference in performance as they have got older or from the ones that have, has it made a difference. I'm assuming rightly or wrongly that younger riders don't worry to much about this stuff or do they

dennisn

Anyone care to take a shot at explaining what, exactly, this core is? Where does it begin and end? Why is it that this core training didn't even exist 20 years ago? Could it be just a sort of scam to sell exercise programs? :?

smudgerii

dennisn wrote:

Anyone care to take a shot at explaining what, exactly, this core is? Where does it begin and end? Why is it that this core training didn't even exist 20 years ago? Could it be just a sort of scam to sell exercise programs? :?

Used to be your abs and lower back.

fat daddy

dennisn wrote:

? Why is it that this core training didn't even exist 20 years ago? Could it be just a sort of scam to sell exercise programs? :?

could be .... but cyclists are a crap lot faster these days due to advances in athletic training ... so one of those scams in the last 20 years is working

That said a lot of people just believe that you only need more time on the bike, perhaps cyclists pre 1996 just didn't cycle enough ???

DaveyO

The old adage of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" seems to hold true for a lot of folks. I prefer "Prevention is better than cure" especially now i'm getting older.
The core is your foundation for all the other muscle groups. I reckon if you cycle, after a while, everything strengthens up together, legs strengthen and core strengthens as a result and most folk will get by in life with this alone and no problems.
However, like weight training, you only strengthen the core in the way those exercises dictate as well as the type of muscle fiber recruited for that activity. I held the belief for the best part of 20 years of strength training that the basic exercises i carried out was enough to recruit the core sufficiently. Since performing 15 mins dedicated core work alone however over the last few weeks, i have noticed that some minor niggles as well as a long standing groin strain have all but disappeared and posture has improved, which is reason enough alone for me to carry on doing them.

diy

Core muscles start just below your moobs and finish just above your willie. On the back they start just below the shoulder blades and finish just above the knees but exclude the ham strings and lats.



20 years ago if you injured your back, you'd be told to rest it, today you are told to exercise. Knowledge changes - Also many many of us sit at a desk for 8-10 hours a day. Sitting is one of the worse things we do to our backs.

As you will see from the pic (or perhaps if you find a better one) all these little muscles are indirectly attached to each other. Working your quads will affect your glutes, your glutes are connected to the lower back etc..

Core strength is vital for many other sports, we've learned for example that sit ups don't do much for the TVA and that the TVA do a lot more work that we once thought.

How many cyclists bothered stretching post-ride 20 years ago. We know that cycling shortens muscles if you don't stretch.