Poo tin... Put@in...
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Many Macron wants to revitalise the Normandy Format, negotiations involving France, Germany, Ukraine and Russia.
The Germans have already shown their hand haven't they?0 -
See, this is what I don't get about the EU. If you want to show a united, powerful front/image, at least try and sing from the same hymn sheet. I can understand why Russia don't want Ukraine to be a part of NATO though, with the potential of nukes kicking about on their boarder, especially when it used to part of the USSR.ballysmate said:Many Macron wants to revitalise the Normandy Format, negotiations involving France, Germany, Ukraine and Russia.
The Germans have already shown their hand haven't they?0 -
Should probably stop annexing massive parts of it then ffsfocuszing723 said:
See, this is what I don't get about the EU. If you want to show a united, powerful front/image, at least try and sing from the same hymn sheet. I can understand why Russia don't want Ukraine to be a part of NATO though, with the potential of nukes kicking about on their boarder, especially when it used to part of the USSR.ballysmate said:Many Macron wants to revitalise the Normandy Format, negotiations involving France, Germany, Ukraine and Russia.
The Germans have already shown their hand haven't they?0 -
The USA weren't too keen when Russia tried to put nukes in Cuba.0
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Russia has very recently invaded and annexed part of Ukraine. It is still conducting a war in its most eastern provinces.
Of course Ukraine is looking for protection.0 -
Very recently you say, the Ukraine want to progress with relation to joining the EU/Nato in 2024. Like I said, the USA weren't keen on the idea of Russian nukes in Cuba.rick_chasey said:Russia has very recently invaded and annexed part of Ukraine. It is still conducting a war in its most eastern provinces.
Of course Ukraine is looking for protection.0 -
I mean yes it's understandable that Russia doesn't want NATO on its borders but does it justify annexing large parts of Ukraine and effectively doing similar in Georgia ?
Which came first - countries wanting to join NATO or the threat of Russia trying to dictate to or annex parts of them ? Russia will claim they are just responding to Western expansionism but nobody is forcing Ukraine to choose NATO over whatever that Russian equivalent is.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I suggest you go read the UK’s minister of defence recent explanation of why Putin’s arguments are nonsense.focuszing723 said:
Very recently you say, the Ukraine want to progress with relation to joining the EU/Nato in 2024. Like I said, the USA weren't keen on the idea of Russian nukes in Cuba.rick_chasey said:Russia has very recently invaded and annexed part of Ukraine. It is still conducting a war in its most eastern provinces.
Of course Ukraine is looking for protection.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/an-article-by-the-defence-secretary-on-the-situation-in-ukraine0 -
rick_chasey said:
I suggest you go read the UK’s minister of defence recent explanation of why Putin’s arguments are nonsense.focuszing723 said:
Very recently you say, the Ukraine want to progress with relation to joining the EU/Nato in 2024. Like I said, the USA weren't keen on the idea of Russian nukes in Cuba.rick_chasey said:Russia has very recently invaded and annexed part of Ukraine. It is still conducting a war in its most eastern provinces.
Of course Ukraine is looking for protection.
Interesting article.0 -
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I will. Look, I'm not completely silly I'm just trying to play devils advocate and see it from Putin/Russia's perspective. Having someone in a so say democracy keeping themselves in power is never a good thing.0
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Thanks for that - seems a cogent statement of the situation.rick_chasey said:
I suggest you go read the UK’s minister of defence recent explanation of why Putin’s arguments are nonsense.focuszing723 said:
Very recently you say, the Ukraine want to progress with relation to joining the EU/Nato in 2024. Like I said, the USA weren't keen on the idea of Russian nukes in Cuba.rick_chasey said:Russia has very recently invaded and annexed part of Ukraine. It is still conducting a war in its most eastern provinces.
Of course Ukraine is looking for protection.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/an-article-by-the-defence-secretary-on-the-situation-in-ukraine
Wilier Izoard XP0 -
Biden appears to have signalled that a small Russian incursion into Ukraine would get a pass.
"Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and we (in Nato) end up having to fight about what to do and what to not do, etcetera.
"But if they actually do what they're capable of doing, it is going to be a disaster for Russia if they further invade Ukraine."
Leader of the free world, my ar5e.0 -
Devil's advocate but I suppose he gets asked what will you do if they invade and he doesn't want to paint himself into a corner promising the metaphorical nuclear option if it's not a full on invasion[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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What would you want Biden to do?ballysmate said:Biden appears to have signalled that a small Russian incursion into Ukraine would get a pass.
"Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and we (in Nato) end up having to fight about what to do and what to not do, etcetera.
"But if they actually do what they're capable of doing, it is going to be a disaster for Russia if they further invade Ukraine."
Leader of the free world, my ar5e.0 -
Well bearing in mind that the Budapest Memorandum was supposed to give guarantees to Ukraine's security in response to them giving up their nuclear weapons, I would expect him to talk tough and ensure that Putin knew there would be crippling consequences, accepting that a sufficiently robust military response is presently not available.
The fullest available sanctions would be imposed.0 -
So Ukraine gave up their nukes on the understanding that their security would be protected. What chumps.DeVlaeminck said:Devil's advocate but I suppose he gets asked what will you do if they invade and he doesn't want to paint himself into a corner promising the metaphorical nuclear option if it's not a full on invasion
Good luck in the future trying to get somebody to unilaterally nuclear disarm.
They didn't agree to give them up on the basis that if invaded, they would only have to relinquish x% of their country.
Kazakhstan and Belarus must be looking at their copy of the Budapest Memorandum and wondering whether to hang it on a nail behind the khazi door.0 -
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f... things up." Barack Obama.0
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I thought that was what he said?ballysmate said:Well bearing in mind that the Budapest Memorandum was supposed to give guarantees to Ukraine's security in response to them giving up their nuclear weapons, I would expect him to talk tough and ensure that Putin knew there would be crippling consequences, accepting that a sufficiently robust military response is presently not available.
The fullest available sanctions would be imposed.0 -
Did he? He drew a distinction between a full invasion and a more limited incursion. How do you think Putin may interpret that or the Ukrainians?rick_chasey said:
I thought that was what he said?ballysmate said:Well bearing in mind that the Budapest Memorandum was supposed to give guarantees to Ukraine's security in response to them giving up their nuclear weapons, I would expect him to talk tough and ensure that Putin knew there would be crippling consequences, accepting that a sufficiently robust military response is presently not available.
The fullest available sanctions would be imposed.
They gave up their nukes on the understanding that they would be given full protection. Sleepy Joe now appears to be saying "When we said full protection, we obviously didn't mean that we would protect all of your country"
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I might have misunderstood but all the reporting I read made it fairly clear they'll give Russia full sanctions etc but they won't shoot them.ballysmate said:
Did he? He drew a distinction between a full invasion and a more limited incursion. How do you think Putin may interpret that or the Ukrainians?rick_chasey said:
I thought that was what he said?ballysmate said:Well bearing in mind that the Budapest Memorandum was supposed to give guarantees to Ukraine's security in response to them giving up their nuclear weapons, I would expect him to talk tough and ensure that Putin knew there would be crippling consequences, accepting that a sufficiently robust military response is presently not available.
The fullest available sanctions would be imposed.
They gave up their nukes on the understanding that they would be given full protection. Sleepy Joe now appears to be saying "When we said full protection, we obviously didn't mean that we would protect all of your country"0 -
So the FT tomorrow suggesting Biden is “hardening”0 -
If he is hardening, he is either taking viagra or he has not yet stated that the fullest available sanctions will be imposed. It suggests there is still a way to go.0
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All sorted now, Truss has told him to behave.0
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Thank feck for that, part of me could see the problem escalatingPross said:All sorted now, Truss has told him to behave.
Wilier Izoard XP0 -
On Thursday, Liz Truss, the UK foreign secretary, warned Russia that any invasion of Ukraine would only lead to a disaster on the scale of the Soviet-Afghan war. Speaking at the Lowy Institute in Sydney, Australia, Truss framed the conflict in Ukraine as part of a wider dispute between what she saw as liberal states and autocracies, including Russia and China.Pross said:All sorted now, Truss has told him to behave.
She urged Putin to “desist and step back from Ukraine before he makes a massive strategic mistake”. The Kremlin, she said, “has not learned the lessons of history” and an “invasion will only lead to a terrible quagmire and loss of life, as we know from the Soviet-Afghan war and conflict in Chechnya.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/21/russia-and-us-to-meet-in-geneva-as-ukraine-war-fears-grow
Only in cake stop could fault be found with a UK Foreign Sec saying that and trying to show Putin a united front.
Meanwhile the new German Chancellor, Herr Scholz refuses to even discus the Ukraine with Biden. Too busy apparently.1 -
Who's finding fault? Mine was a tongue in cheek comment that after comments from world leaders our heavyweight foreign secretary spoke out (and more the way it was reported as though it was a major move).ballysmate said:
On Thursday, Liz Truss, the UK foreign secretary, warned Russia that any invasion of Ukraine would only lead to a disaster on the scale of the Soviet-Afghan war. Speaking at the Lowy Institute in Sydney, Australia, Truss framed the conflict in Ukraine as part of a wider dispute between what she saw as liberal states and autocracies, including Russia and China.Pross said:All sorted now, Truss has told him to behave.
She urged Putin to “desist and step back from Ukraine before he makes a massive strategic mistake”. The Kremlin, she said, “has not learned the lessons of history” and an “invasion will only lead to a terrible quagmire and loss of life, as we know from the Soviet-Afghan war and conflict in Chechnya.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/21/russia-and-us-to-meet-in-geneva-as-ukraine-war-fears-grow
Only in cake stop could fault be found with a UK Foreign Sec saying that and trying to show Putin a united front.
Meanwhile the new German Chancellor, Herr Scholz refuses to even discus the Ukraine with Biden. Too busy apparently.0 -
@Pross
In which case, mea culpa.1 -
We are a cosignatory on the Budapest memorandum and as such obligated to play our part in assuring Ukraine's security. Would be odd if our Foreign Sec said nothing wouldn't it?laurentian said:
Thank censored for that, part of me could see the problem escalatingPross said:All sorted now, Truss has told him to behave.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGNzYEj_BrQ
