dhb at CRC

Anonymous

Seems chain reaction are stocking wiggles DHB brand.

My guess is CRC take the orders and Wiggle do fulfilment

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobi ... launchwk42

imposter2.0

Wiggle and CRC merged earlier in the year, so it shouldn't really be a surprise...

Anonymous

Oh yeah
Excuse the brain fart

ugo.santalucia

The merger shows once again how fuxxed up the world is and how little basic concepts like competition law really apply to modern capitalism... the two largest retailers owned by the same people selling you the same stuff at the same price... how totally pointless is that?

Anonymous

Do you know what market penetration means?

ugo.santalucia

coriordan wrote:

Do you know what market penetration means?

Are you defending the indefensible? There used to be some value in the concept of anti trust, something that over the years has been overlooked, as the politicians become less and less powerful and corporations more and more influential. It is everywhere and only in some sporadic cases we finally see some interventions, typically and always in the same sectors... aviation springs to mind.

Governments flag the meagre revenue that large corporations manage to leech out of their massaged balance sheets as if they were something to be proud of and we make do with a grossly underfunded public sector, blaming each other for not doing enough, not spending enough, not being competitive enough, while shareholders enjoy huge profits for doing basically nothing.

Obviously none of this might apply to Wiggle/CRC, but I do not understand how this was allowed to happen. It would be outrage if Tesco bought out Asda.

Anyway, we keep buying from Amazon, so clearly we don't care...

NeXXus

Buying DHB kit(which I have began to love) is easier for me now. 15min drive, no post, try stuff on etc etc

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Obviously none of this might apply to Wiggle/CRC, but I do not understand how this was allowed to happen. It would be outrage if Tesco bought out Asda.

Have you looked at how many online retailers claim to the biggest in the UK? How Tredz/Wheelies do in the market (now Halfords), a shop called Evans, Halfords being the actual leader? Allowed to happen? I'm shocked it was even referred.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Obviously none of this might apply to Wiggle/CRC, but I do not understand how this was allowed to happen. It would be outrage if Tesco bought out Asda.

Have you looked at how many online retailers claim to the biggest in the UK? How Tredz/Wheelies do in the market (now Halfords), a shop called Evans, Halfords being the actual leader? Allowed to happen? I'm shocked it was even referred.

I was under the impression Wiggle and CRC were the two largest cycling online retailers in Europe. Read somewhere Wiggle was actually the world largest, as it branches out in virtually any country... add them up and they should take a fairly significant chunk of the UK market... probably not far off 50%

bendertherobot

Wiggle revenues are £179m. Halfords profits are just under half of Wiggle's turnover. Halfords sales exceed £1billion. Now, obviously, a load of that is other stuff but they dominate the market. Yet they were allowed to buy Tredz and Wheelies.

Tredz and Wheelies have revenue of around £39 million. I was shocked they had such a big share.

What is shocking is that Evans has a smaller revenue than Wiggle. And, consequently, much less profit.

Now the combined revenue of CRC and Wiggle is going to be big. Circa £300 million or so. That certainly makes them the biggest player right now. But there's still plenty of choice out there. It's a little too early to say what the effect of the merger will be on availability of similar products or whether there will be a slow death of CRC. Way too early. There is undoubtedly some strategy.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

Wiggle revenues are £179m. Halfords profits are just under half of Wiggle's turnover. Halfords sales exceed £1billion. Now, obviously, a load of that is other stuff but they dominate the market. Yet they were allowed to buy Tredz and Wheelies.

Tredz and Wheelies have revenue of around £39 million. I was shocked they had such a big share.

What is shocking is that Evans has a smaller revenue than Wiggle. And, consequently, much less profit.

Now the combined revenue of CRC and Wiggle is going to be big. Circa £300 million or so. That certainly makes them the biggest player right now. But there's still plenty of choice out there. It's a little too early to say what the effect of the merger will be on availability of similar products or whether there will be a slow death of CRC. Way too early. There is undoubtedly some strategy.

What percentage of Halfords business is bicycle? And what percentage of it is online sales?

To give you an idea, over the years I have probably spent something in the two figure region at Halfords and something in the high 4 figures at Wiggle + CRC. Tredz and Wheelies have never been in my radar... they have hardly any stock, I don't think they even compare with Wiggle. £ 179 million seem very small, is that UK revenue or global?

bendertherobot

It's revenue. All revenue.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

It's revenue. All revenue.

I don't understand... they have 180 million revenue, yet they built a distribution centre that has a sales capacity of 750 million... so basically they could stock 4 years worth of sales in a market where a product is obsolete after one or two years...

Logic?

kingrollo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

coriordan wrote:

Do you know what market penetration means?

Are you defending the indefensible? There used to be some value in the concept of anti trust, something that over the years has been overlooked, as the politicians become less and less powerful and corporations more and more influential. It is everywhere and only in some sporadic cases we finally see some interventions, typically and always in the same sectors... aviation springs to mind.

Governments flag the meagre revenue that large corporations manage to leech out of their massaged balance sheets as if they were something to be proud of and we make do with a grossly underfunded public sector, blaming each other for not doing enough, not spending enough, not being competitive enough, while shareholders enjoy huge profits for doing basically nothing.

Obviously none of this might apply to Wiggle/CRC, but I do not understand how this was allowed to happen. It would be outrage if Tesco bought out Asda.

Anyway, we keep buying from Amazon, so clearly we don't care...

Is that you Jeremy ?

ugo.santalucia

kingrollo wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

coriordan wrote:

Do you know what market penetration means?

Are you defending the indefensible? There used to be some value in the concept of anti trust, something that over the years has been overlooked, as the politicians become less and less powerful and corporations more and more influential. It is everywhere and only in some sporadic cases we finally see some interventions, typically and always in the same sectors... aviation springs to mind.

Governments flag the meagre revenue that large corporations manage to leech out of their massaged balance sheets as if they were something to be proud of and we make do with a grossly underfunded public sector, blaming each other for not doing enough, not spending enough, not being competitive enough, while shareholders enjoy huge profits for doing basically nothing.

Obviously none of this might apply to Wiggle/CRC, but I do not understand how this was allowed to happen. It would be outrage if Tesco bought out Asda.

Anyway, we keep buying from Amazon, so clearly we don't care...

Is that you Jeremy ?

Possibly... on the topic, off topic, but since you started, I don't understand why standing for equality and social justice has become something to be ashamed of...

Tashman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Obviously none of this might apply to Wiggle/CRC, but I do not understand how this was allowed to happen. It would be outrage if Tesco bought out Asda.

Have you looked at how many online retailers claim to the biggest in the UK? How Tredz/Wheelies do in the market (now Halfords), a shop called Evans, Halfords being the actual leader? Allowed to happen? I'm shocked it was even referred.

I was under the impression Wiggle and CRC were the two largest cycling online retailers in Europe. Read somewhere Wiggle was actually the world largest, as it branches out in virtually any country... add them up and they should take a fairly significant chunk of the UK market... probably not far off 50%

Joe public have no concept of Wiggle and CRC though, if they want something cycling related they'll wander down to Halfords, or maybe Evans if they have one, or maybe even Amazon if they can be bothered to try and navigate it.

fenix

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I don't understand... they have 180 million revenue, yet they built a distribution centre that has a sales capacity of 750 million... so basically they could stock 4 years worth of sales in a market where a product is obsolete after one or two years...

Logic?

Well if you fill a warehouse with say, pinarellos - then the sales capacity is going to be a lot higher than if you fill the warehouse with BSO's....

stueys

ugo.santalucia wrote:

coriordan wrote:

Do you know what market penetration means?

Are you defending the indefensible? There used to be some value in the concept of anti trust, something that over the years has been overlooked, as the politicians become less and less powerful and corporations more and more influential. It is everywhere and only in some sporadic cases we finally see some interventions, typically and always in the same sectors... aviation springs to mind.

Governments flag the meagre revenue that large corporations manage to leech out of their massaged balance sheets as if they were something to be proud of and we make do with a grossly underfunded public sector, blaming each other for not doing enough, not spending enough, not being competitive enough, while shareholders enjoy huge profits for doing basically nothing.

Obviously none of this might apply to Wiggle/CRC, but I do not understand how this was allowed to happen. It would be outrage if Tesco bought out Asda.

Anyway, we keep buying from Amazon, so clearly we don't care...

Think it's moot now to compare anti-trust in a global trading, internet world (well assuming we actually don't become little isolated Britain which seems to be the current direction..). The internet means that price transparency and global shopping options are very easy to achieve, for a mail order outfit it's very hard to artificially lift prices which was the main concern of anti trust. Wiggle operate at pretty low margins so consolidation makes sense for them.

Equally I think having many competitors doesn't naturally equate to a free market. Especially when the government has historically demonstrated very little appetite to go after quite obvious price cartels (look at utilities).

Re company tax I agree that lots of what we see is immoral at best. But it's impossible for governments to do much whilst they are competing with other countries for companies to do business here. Ultimately the revenue made from VAT and employment taxes are the main income and they happily trade corp tax for that. Fortunately we're addressing this problem by just blanket making it very unattractive to invest or be based in the UK

kingofthetailwind

NeXXus wrote:

Buying DHB kit(which I have began to love) is easier for me now. 15min drive, no post, try stuff on etc etc

Are they stocked in Boucher? Or Ballyclare?

mac9091

I'd state the point that the CRC and Wiggle merger is more reason to go to your LBS, but as with everything we are driven by money.

Its all well and good supporting your LBS but in reality a jacket (for example) can be bought instore for £99 and you refrain from purchasing there and then. You then go home and see the same jacket for £75, all best intentions towards the LBS but your buying it online and yes giving that big corporate monster that annoys you more revenue but thats £24 that could be spent on your family. Take it as a percentage you'd be giving 25% of your money that you spend on cycling to or companies/councils in the form of "overheads"

I do support my LBS though in areas where there is bigger profit margins....Cakes and Coffee

imposter2.0

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I don't understand why standing for equality and social justice has become something to be ashamed of...

It isn't. But this is neither.

bendertherobot

mac9091 wrote:

I'd state the point that the CRC and Wiggle merger is more reason to go to your LBS, but as with everything we are driven by money.

Its all well and good supporting your LBS but in reality a jacket (for example) can be bought instore for £99 and you refrain from purchasing there and then. You then go home and see the same jacket for £75, all best intentions towards the LBS but your buying it online and yes giving that big corporate monster that annoys you more revenue but thats £24 that could be spent on your family. Take it as a percentage you'd be giving 25% of your money that you spend on cycling to or companies/councils in the form of "overheads"

I do support my LBS though in areas where there is bigger profit margins....Cakes and Coffee

Much depends on what jacket mind. I don't really have a LBS depending on what the term means. When in work I have 3-4 and, sadly, Evans has the most choice. I don't even buy from there. Getting what you want is often quite hard. I have spent more at my cycling cafe to make up for it though.

fenix

I do a lot of my shopping online - as you grow up you seem to have less free time - so I hardly ever visit the LBS.

I'm trying to make up for it though by getting them to do repairs I would normally have done myself in the past - gives them a bit of money and saves me a bit of time.

ugo.santalucia

mac9091 wrote:

I'd state the point that the CRC and Wiggle merger is more reason to go to your LBS, but as with everything we are driven by money.

The closest LBS for me is probably 10 miles away (with traffic)... maybe Halfords a bit less... hard to resist the power of a click combined with infinite more choice

Dorset_Boy

On the Corporation Tax issue, governments around the globe haven't caught up with global businesses. They all try to tax profit on global / multi nationals, but these companies shift their profits to the lowest tax areas. The solution is simple, tax the revenue these companies generate in your jurisdiction, and not the profit...

gweeds

I'd love to know how being able to buy a brand in two online retailers defeats social justice.

gweeds

Dorset Boy wrote:

On the Corporation Tax issue, governments around the globe haven't caught up with global businesses. They all try to tax profit on global / multi nationals, but these companies shift their profits to the lowest tax areas. The solution is simple, tax the revenue these companies generate in your jurisdiction, and not the profit...

Except it's not. The revenue is simply booked in the lowest tax area.

See Amazon, eBay et al. They all have large UK sales offices and staff. But none of the deals are 'signed' in those U.K. offices. Instead they're done in the lowest tax area (Ireland, Luxembourg etc) and thus the revenue is considered to land there.

Utter crap of course. But until the laws change that allow this it will continue. It's wrong.

chippyk

Gweeds wrote:

I'd love to know how being able to buy a brand in two online retailers defeats social justice.

It doesn't. But don't let the reverse McCarthyism of the left get in the way eh?

Anyway, WTAF is social justice? If big bad evil Wiggle/CRC closed down today, would the world be better? 1000's would be out of work, we'd all be listening to Neil in the LBS explaining and bemoaning the differences in bottom bracket standards/sealed vs cup and cones/carbon vs steel/mudguards all year round and Haribo would go bust.

PS. I have never actually bought anything from Wiggle. I might have bought some Sidi's 5 years ago from CRC but it might have been Cycle Surgery.

lbmxj560

Dorset Boy wrote:

The solution is simple, tax the revenue these companies generate in your jurisdiction, and not the profit...

Not really, though. That wouldn't work. In trying to get some more tax out of the likes of Amazon, 99% of companies would suffer. For example, in the motor trade the margins on the sales of new cars are incredibly low (the owner of Bristol Street Motors, for example, runs on a margin of about 2%). So, you tax revenue at 10%, Bristol Street Motors ends up paying 8% more in tax than any money it actually makes. That makes great sense. Not. And bearing in mind that profit is not cash. Not in any way shape or form. Cash is usually a hell of a lot lower than profit, so in real terms, taxing revenue results in significant losses in cash for almost all business. Lots of money lost, lots of jobs lost, lots of offices unoccupied, lots of landlords bankrupt etc. etc.

So, no, that's not the solution. The solution is not simple and never will be. Unless all countries in the world unite their tax setups, then there will always be countries that are more tax advantageous than others. Kind of like the commercial world. There will always be retailers who are cheaper than others. They tend to survive. If one country makes it tax systems such that it is uncompetitive, it loses out to others.

Whether people like it or not, running a country is no different to running a business, hence why politics and business are so intertwined.

And on the topic in question... I think it's great. More options to purchase for the consumer (good). A quality product at a great price (good). Competition for the likes of Castelli, Assos, Rapha, Endura et al (good). More people in jobs in the UK (good). More national insurance paid (good). More PAYE collected (good). The main potential downside is that Wiggle and CRC undercut everyone, put them out of business and then hike up prices. That isn't going to happen, though, as many of the other retailers (Planet X, Ribble, Halfords, Tredz, Wheelies) offer products that Wiggle and CRC do not.

ugo.santalucia

lbmxj560 wrote:

And on the topic in question... I think it's great. More options to purchase for the consumer (good). A quality product at a great price (good). Competition for the likes of Castelli, Assos, Rapha, Endura et al (good).

DHB was already available at Wiggle, same product, same price. It would be good if a competitor stocked DHB, otherwise there is zero benefit

lbmxj560

ugo.santalucia wrote:

lbmxj560 wrote:

And on the topic in question... I think it's great. More options to purchase for the consumer (good). A quality product at a great price (good). Competition for the likes of Castelli, Assos, Rapha, Endura et al (good).

DHB was already available at Wiggle, same product, same price. It would be good if a competitor stocked DHB, otherwise there is zero benefit

I'm not sure I said that anywhere? What I said was that the merger, in general, had the above positives. The original post was about CHb at CRC, and the response to that is surely "meh" - it makes no difference (zero benefit is a very negative way of looking at what is, in effect, the status quo). The post then moved onto a discussion regarding the Wiggle/CRC merger as a whole, which is what the poitns above reference (and what you had been bemoaning). However, there are no downsides that anyone has been able to point out yet.