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May and MOD investigations!

mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
edited October 2016 in The cake stop
Shocking that this woman Teresa May, can stand up at her party conference stating her dislike at British troops being subject to MOD investigations into so called "war crimes" in Iraq and yet a week later a former Sargent in the SAS is subject to one.

have these people ever been in a war zone? this guy killed people who were dying, i guess he could have put his own life at risk and held their hand as they did so?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37670794

it is disgraceful that our own Government are persecuting these guys, the UK Gov send them into a questionable war, then try to jail them.........
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  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,701
    mamba80 wrote:
    Shocking that this woman Teresa May, can stand up at her party conference stating her dislike at British troops being subject to MOD investigations into so called "war crimes" in Iraq and yet a week later a former Sargent in the SAS is subject to one.

    have these people ever been in a war zone? this guy killed people who were dying, i guess he could have put his own life at risk and held their hand as they did so?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37670794

    it is disgraceful that our own Government are persecuting these guys, the UK Gov send them into a questionable war, then try to jail them.........


    Go on then Mamba, I'll bite.
    She actually said

    we will never again in any future conflict let those activist left-wing human rights lawyers harangue and harass the bravest of the brave the men and women of our armed forces.”

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/there ... 61716.html

    No mention of MoD investigating credible evidence of wrong doing is there?

    The guy's actions were very similar to the RM NCO who was found guilty in court for his actions. Both soldiers' actions were contrary to the Geneva convention and ECHR.

    she announced the move to opt out of parts of the European Convention on Human Rights, meaning troops fighting abroad in times of war will be protected from lawsuits.

    So to protect such troops we should opt out of ECHR, is that what you're advocating? Or are you vexed that she said troops shouldn't be pursued for wrongdoing? :wink:

    I'm pretty sure that her speech was targeting the ambulance chasing lawyers and not acts which could lead to a murder trial.

    That all said, I don't believe that this soldier belongs in court, but we won't know for certain until an investigation has taken place will we?

    PS I don't think the RM should have gone to prison either.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 46,744 Lives Here
    Murder doesn't cut it these days does it bally?

    :roll:
  • fat daddyfat daddy Posts: 2,632
    It's only an investigation ????

    Bit like when you go to the fridge and discover there is no milk .... You investigate by saying "hey wifey, did you finish the milk?" .... It's not calling the police and demanding the flying squad be dispatched to hunt down international theives
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,701
    Murder doesn't cut it these days does it bally?

    :roll:

    From a legal standpoint it was murder/manslaughter. But morally... ?
    If the meagre facts that are available turn out to be accurate, man in the middle of nowhere with his insides hanging out with no prospect of treatment, begging to be put out of his misery? In those circumstances, I would have a hard job convicting someone of murder.
    I dare say your moral compass points truer than mine, but that is honestly as I see it. Always difficult when laws drafted in peacetime are applied to surreal situations.

    The scene from Full Metal Jacket when the grievously wounded sniper pleads to be killed springs to mind. The hardened troops standing around watching her die whilst the soldier with the largest spark of humanity wrestles with his conscience before shooting her.

    BTW I still don't know if Mamba objects to ECHR or TM saying troops should be shielded from spurious allegations.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    ECHR can be suspended in war, france does it, a left wing socialist country..... and May is completely 2 faced, she shouldnt say she ll protect soldiers, she should do it, investigations should only take place in the most heinous of allegations, such as those that are not in combat situations.... for example the Soldiers that took the time to drive some iraqis 8miles to a canal and let one of them drown.

    MOD investigations are very thorough, they are not a set of a few simple questions and can take years and even when found innocent, the whole thing can be opened up again, long after the event.

    the fact that Rick calls it Murder before the guy has even had the investigation, shows what these soldiers are up against.

    the consequences of making the wrong decision and being captured whilst giving a mortally wounded combatant Morphine, holding his hand etc would be torture and a beheading but so long as you do the right thing eh?
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,701
    mamba80 wrote:
    ECHR can be suspended in war, france does it, a left wing socialist country..... and May is completely 2 faced, she shouldnt say she ll protect soldiers, she should do it, investigations should only take place in the most heinous of allegations, such as those that are not in combat situations.... for example the Soldiers that took the time to drive some iraqis 8miles to a canal and let one of them drown.

    MOD investigations are very thorough, they are not a set of a few simple questions and can take years and even when found innocent, the whole thing can be opened up again, long after the event.

    the fact that Rick calls it Murder before the guy has even had the investigation, shows what these soldiers are up against.

    the consequences of making the wrong decision and being captured whilst giving a mortally wounded combatant Morphine, holding his hand etc would be torture and a beheading but so long as you do the right thing eh?

    Is the Geneva Convention to be suspended as well?
    She said soldiers were to be protected from ambulance chasing lawyers. The MoD is duty bound to investigate reports of serious misconduct. Should the MoD turn a blind eye and not investigate?

    Murder? If the soldier is found to have acted unlawfully, what should be the charge?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 46,744 Lives Here
    I thought it was in reference to that guy who was already found guilty fwiw
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 5,900
    General point, not on specifics of a case. Not much to do with ECHR, more to do our very own judicial and political system which permits bottom feeding, ambulance chasing, no win no fee so-called lawyers to operate, with seemingly minimal sense and reality checks to prevent waste of state resources dealing with spurious claims. Can't blame 'Europe' for that, unless one is a rabid 'Kipper nutter.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 9,289
    Everyone should be accountable for their actions and soldiers are no exception.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Everyone should be accountable for their actions and soldiers are no exception.

    there is a chain of command and war zones esp behind enemy lines and with an enemy who do not recognise GC or HR's are not circumstances where you can apply peacetime norms.

    an example would be someone i used to know, in Rhodesia, came across a white farmer who had been set on fire and very badly burned but still alive, miles from anywhere no means of extracting him, it looked like he had seen his family wiped out, they killed him......

    you would obviously have left him to die, taken many hours or perhaps he might have been eaten alive or the gooks would have come back and continued their work on him.

    or maybe they all should have stayed and been killed by a much larger enemy force, maybe you could suggest what to write in their letters of condolence to their mothers?

    situations like this, should be dealt with (in the first instance) by their commanding officer not by civvies and government officials.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    Who are the gooks?
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    coriordan wrote:
    Who are the gooks?

    your education is sadly lacking :lol:

    it was a term used by Rhodesian soldiers for the enemy they were fighting, not certain but i think its origins were in the Korean war.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    I know what it is. Isn't it a little derogatory?
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 9,289
    mamba80 wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Everyone should be accountable for their actions and soldiers are no exception.

    there is a chain of command and war zones esp behind enemy lines and with an enemy who do not recognise GC or HR's are not circumstances where you can apply peacetime norms.

    an example would be someone i used to know, in Rhodesia, came across a white farmer who had been set on fire and very badly burned but still alive, miles from anywhere no means of extracting him, it looked like he had seen his family wiped out, they killed him......

    you would obviously have left him to die, taken many hours or perhaps he might have been eaten alive or the gooks would have come back and continued their work on him.

    or maybe they all should have stayed and been killed by a much larger enemy force, maybe you could suggest what to write in their letters of condolence to their mothers?

    situations like this, should be dealt with (in the first instance) by their commanding officer not by civvies and government officials.

    What do you write in the letters of condolences? The same as every other letter of condolence to the terminally ill that are deprived the right to die. There's nothing different about being a soldier.

    Situations like this should be dealt with by the law not by a commanding officer who has no regard for the law.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    I kinda agree wth mamba
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    coriordan wrote:
    I know what it is. Isn't it a little derogatory?

    sorry but you did ask!

    yes i think its a racially offensive term to Asians but wasnt used in that way in Zim, anyhow, the enemy is the enemy and i doubt zapu and zanu were offended, but maybe they were and some legal type will find the Soldiers that used this term and sue them.

    BB, i respect your opinion, i just fundamentally disagree and i doubt we ever will see eye to eye.

    Personally i d like to see the people who sent these guys and gals into Iraq charged with Murder, infact mass murder.
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,809
    "Our motives were entirely humane. I'll happily go to court, I'll happily go to jail, if you think I've done wrong. But people should put themselves in my position first. Walk around in my boots, then judge me."

    Is the quote from the soldier in question.
    And God created the bicycle, so that man could use it as a means for work and to help him negotiate life's complicated journey.
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,809
    slowmart wrote:
    "Our motives were entirely humane. I'll happily go to court, I'll happily go to jail, if you think I've done wrong. But people should put themselves in my position first. Walk around in my boots, then judge me."

    Is the quote from the soldier in question.



    So if you were in that position what would you do. Kill the individual and end their suffering or watch them die in agony. That's the choice, no prevarication or mis direction. What would you do?

    Me, I'd kill them but I wouldn't tell the world about the fact by writing a book.
    And God created the bicycle, so that man could use it as a means for work and to help him negotiate life's complicated journey.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 9,289
    mamba80 wrote:

    BB, i respect your opinion, i just fundamentally disagree and i doubt we ever will see eye to eye.

    I suspect that is very true.

    It's not the first time I have disagreed with some army related matters. I know quite a few people in the army.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,701
    ECHR can be suspended in war, france does it, a left wing socialist country..... and May is completely 2 faced, she shouldnt say she ll protect soldiers, she should do it, investigations should only take place in the most heinous of allegations, such as those that are not in combat situations.... for example the Soldiers that took the time to drive some iraqis 8miles to a canal and let one of them drown.

    At this stage it is only a MoD investigation into a claim made in a soldiers book. As I understand it, the root of your ire is that any investigation is taking place at all as the matter was too trivial to warrant one. The only way any sense of the seriousness of the incident can be established is by someone looking at the facts around it, like in an... er....um

    Investigation! That's the word I was looking for. :wink:
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    ballysmate wrote:
    ECHR can be suspended in war, france does it, a left wing socialist country..... and May is completely 2 faced, she shouldnt say she ll protect soldiers, she should do it, investigations should only take place in the most heinous of allegations, such as those that are not in combat situations.... for example the Soldiers that took the time to drive some iraqis 8miles to a canal and let one of them drown.

    At this stage it is only a MoD investigation into a claim made in a soldiers book. As I understand it, the root of your ire is that any investigation is taking place at all as the matter was too trivial to warrant one. The only way any sense of the seriousness of the incident can be established is by someone looking at the facts around it, like in an... er....um

    Investigation! That's the word I was looking for. :wink:

    MOD investigations are never "only"

    tbh i m surprised at you Bally.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,701
    Surprised? In what way? I have already said that if the facts are as outlined then I support this soldier's actions and he doesn't belong in court. But to determine that, someone needs to investigate don't they?
  • FishFishFishFish Posts: 2,238
    Well it happened in the Falklands when a medic shot a prisoner who got blown up by a booby trap. No investigation. If you read Peter deLa Billieres book there is section when he was on patrol as a junior officer in Oman and they came across a shepherd who they 'had to kill'. No investigation because it was the SAS . Again in the Falklands there was a disturbing revelation about murder of so called American mercenaries. (prob Argentine servicemen who learned English by watching American TV). Investigated by the police - not the Military Police - not the MOD - just a whitewash - leaving a trace of uncertainty that the author (3 Para - at the scene) of the book went in to hiding.

    On the other hand Pte Chris Alder - from the Parachute Regiment was killed by the police and the internal investigation absolutely villified the police. The judge ordered the jury to return a not guilty verdict in the prosecution of the police.

    Police and MoD investigations started after NI and internment when British citizens were getting hurt. On reflection not a bad thing but maybe going too far.

    The system is anti Army - because it is the Army - because the Army can fark the government if it chooses.
    ...take your pickelf on your holibobs.... :D

    jeez :roll:
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,701
    Chris Adler died as a result of neglect of duty as found by the IPPC.
    According to Wiki( :roll: I know)

    In November 2011 the government formally apologised to Alder's family in the European Court of Human Rights, admitting that it had breached its obligations with regard to "preserving life and ensuring no one is subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment". They also admitted that they had failed to carry out an effective and independent inquiry into the case.

    I rest my case m'lud
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,034
    ballysmate wrote:
    Chris Adler died as a result of neglect of duty as found by the IPPC.
    According to Wiki( :roll: I know)

    In November 2011 the government formally apologised to Alder's family in the European Court of Human Rights, admitting that it had breached its obligations with regard to "preserving life and ensuring no one is subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment". They also admitted that they had failed to carry out an effective and independent inquiry into the case.

    I rest my case m'lud
    He died because of a well-known and common problem - head-injured people tend to look and behave like they're drunk; head-injured people who have drunk half a pint of beer tend to look, behave, puke and smell like they're drunk. If they've just been involved in a bar fight then that doesn't exactly make it look less likely.
    Mrs Bomp, who is an A&E trained medic, knows this well, as do all emergency personnel. The police in the the Alder case were rightly criticised because they should certainly have known this and followed appropriate procedures: but to jump from that to "killed by the police" is quite seriously foil-hatted.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,701
    bompington wrote:
    ballysmate wrote:
    Chris Adler died as a result of neglect of duty as found by the IPPC.
    According to Wiki( :roll: I know)

    In November 2011 the government formally apologised to Alder's family in the European Court of Human Rights, admitting that it had breached its obligations with regard to "preserving life and ensuring no one is subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment". They also admitted that they had failed to carry out an effective and independent inquiry into the case.

    I rest my case m'lud
    He died because of a well-known and common problem - head-injured people tend to look and behave like they're drunk; head-injured people who have drunk half a pint of beer tend to look, behave, puke and smell like they're drunk. If they've just been involved in a bar fight then that doesn't exactly make it look less likely.
    Mrs Bomp, who is an A&E trained medic, knows this well, as do all emergency personnel. The police in the the Alder case were rightly criticised because they should certainly have known this and followed appropriate procedures: but to jump from that to "killed by the police" is quite seriously foil-hatted.

    Killed by the police was the previous poster's phrase. Certainly not mine.
    As well as the condition yoiu outline, there is the condition known as "Excited delirium" which is also a killer.
  • fat daddyfat daddy Posts: 2,632
    FishFish wrote:
    Well it happened in the Falklands.

    that was what 35 years ago ???? .... 5hit changes in 35 years .... you wouldn't expect the same military laws that were effective in WW2 to be applicable in the Falklands ..... and by the same reasoning, Military law in the Falklands has probably moved on a bit now
  • FishFishFishFish Posts: 2,238
    Well the point is that the 'law' has not changed - it is just exercised more judiciously. But the circumstances have not changed - mercy killings go on and always have done.

    But on the original point it was pretty stupid to publish the act and even more stupid of the MoD lawyers to let it pass uncensored.
    ...take your pickelf on your holibobs.... :D

    jeez :roll:
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 46,744 Lives Here
    fat daddy wrote:
    FishFish wrote:
    Well it happened in the Falklands.

    that was what 35 years ago ???? .... 5hit changes in 35 years .... you wouldn't expect the same military laws that were effective in WW2 to be applicable in the Falklands ..... and by the same reasoning, Military law in the Falklands has probably moved on a bit now

    What are you, Adolf Eichman's lawyer?
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,701
    Didn't realise the soldier concerned was on the telly. It now appears that he may have fabricated and embellished events.
    I'm sure any other members of his unit, who may have been tainted by the story, would welcome an investigation to restore their reputations.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... roics.html

    What do you think Mamba?
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