Road Rage Protection

mr_eddy

I have been commuting to work for about 8 years on my bike. Over the last few years I have noticed a sharp increase in the amount of abuse that gets thrown at me and my fellow cyclists either on my way to or from work.

This can't be a reflection of my road manners as my route is the same and I am a firm believer in being especially courteous. I genuinely feel that to lose some of the bad rap that cyclists get we must hold ourselves in higher regard than others and to that end I am ALWAYS cycling in textbook fashion, I stop at every red light and give plenty of room when required, I don't squeeze through gaps and wherever possible I use cycle lanes. My bike is lit up with lights even in the day time and I even put on a narrow 40cm drop handle bar to reduce my width.

Despite all this as mentioned I have been spat at / Sworn at / had apple cores thrown at me etc. Not just me I have seen it happen to other cyclists etc. Normally I have just been the bigger person and just ignored it but the other day I was trying to negotiate a car that had stopped in traffic slap bang in the middle of a traffic crossing. I negotiated past him as I was on green, Next thing I see is him getting out of the car and running up to me and pushing me. He then said " F**k you cycling tw*t I have the right of way on the road so f**k off before I cut your f**cking throat" !!

Clearly an upstanding and well educated pillar of society, Whilst I was a little shaken I just rode off swallowing the urge to kick him in the balls.

Basically this has led me to the point where I really think I should have something on me as some sort of protection. Obviously as a non-violent person I genuinely do not want to ever hurt anyone seriously and as such I would never dream of carrying a knife etc but I do think I need something if some lunatic motorist (or anyone else for that matter) decides that I need a good kicking. I thought about taping my old flat handlebar under the top tube with one end slightly sticking out. This would allow me to quickly grab it and defend myself if some moron gets the red mist just because they see me going faster than them or whatever.

NOTE - At this point you must think I am unlucky but I work in Nottingham - It has a rep for a reason, Whilst there are many nice areas on the verges of Nottingham (I live in one) the city itself is a hideous pit of depravity occupied mostly by little englander's who would not know how to spell 'contemptuous recidivist reprobate' let alone know what it means.

Any other ideas of suggestions of what I could carry and/or do to diffuse a situation. I refuse to stop cycling so that is off the cards.

fat daddy

you want to carry a weapon to diffuse the situation ? ..... good luck with that one. the sort of person that gets out a car and threatens to cut your throat ... or even wants to start a fight in the middle of the street, is the sort of person who is also carrying a "weapon" in their car ...... Pull a handle bar on him, he will pull a hammer on you

you prepared to go that far ?

sometimes it pays off to be a meek little pussy, hang your pride on the office coat rack before stepping out and commuting home

I have yet to be a victim of road rage, but I accept its going to happen .... and when it does I hope I apologise profusely then run (ride) away as quickly as possible taking as many shortcuts through bollards and crossings, before I get mowed down ...... then I will go home to my wife and kid, kiss them both and pretend nothing happened

fenix

You really need to avoid confrontation in these cases. Having something to protect yourself won't work - it can easily be turned round against you. You should be faster and more mobile than someone in or getting out of a car.

Going in tooled up would probably only make the situation worse and you could even end up in Jail.

What about getting one of those Hi Viz 'Polite' vests -that come in those chequer patterns ? May give you a bit more space on the roads ?

fat daddy

or a Wig and fake boobs ... no one shouts at ladies do they ?

mr_eddy

I already have Hi Vis - My back pack is luminous yellow and my helmet is bright orange. I have my lights in Daytime mode everyday and they are very bright so visibility is not my problem.

OK maybe diffuse the situation was the wrong wording my point is if some nutter decides he wants to kick my head in then I can't rely on anyone around me to help. If the worst came to the worst and its just me and some lunatic gets out his car with or without a weapon then surely its not entirely unacceptable to not defend myself.

What do I do if he grabs something from his car and I am cornered or otherwise unable to get out the way fast enough, Am I just expected to get beaten to a pulp and not do anything to stop it in the hope that I don't get killed and I can get the police on the case ?

I am talking about a situation that is either me or them / major injury or death etc.

As I said I really am not a violent person and the last physical altercation I had was in the primary school playground but seeing some of lengths some people go to just to vent their frustration on me and fellow cyclists genuinely scares me.

I can't just accept that. Police carry protective gear / weapons not because they want to attack anyone its because they are in the firing line and to some extend commuter cyclist are too.

tenohfive

You're also committing an offence by having something - even something not inherently weapon-like - for 'self defence.' Using something that you happened to have to hand as a weapon is (depending on the circumstances) fine - but having something specifically for the purpose falls into the bracket of an offensive weapon. Not worth the agro.

As others have said, the chances are high of such a weapon being turned on you as well.

You've got two things in your favour as a cyclist - you can make a quick exit, and if the worst comes to worst you're riding something that can be used to block/keep someone back. Unless it's a 2 grand carbon-framed beauty, in which case I'd just take the kicking and save the bike.

fenix

Actually looking back at your other posts - remember this one :

"In response to some of the above I agree that cyclist should be courteous but I refuse to accept that pedestrians have the right of way, The tow path is clearly marked as a dedicated cycle path so we have just as much right as walkers."

Not giving way to the more vulnerable pedestrian on the canalpath ?

So you refuse to believe you have to give way to pedestrians and you're in turn getting hassle off motorists ?


You're now looking for incidents where you can't get away and asking is it ok to tool up. No it's not. Don't escalate it any more. Isn't Nottinghan the gun capital of Britain or something ?

Avoid Confrontation.
Get away from the area.


Having something ready to smack someone with and you'll be in court. And I think you missed the point of the Polite Hi Viz.....

fat daddy

mr_eddy wrote:

As I said I really am not a violent person and the last physical altercation I had was in the primary school

probably even more reason not to carry a weapon .. if you are not violent, haven't been in an altercation, what makes you think an FSA 36mm flat bar is going to help you .... you think you know how to use it in a fight ??? after the first swing at him is he going to then kick your head in.

Seriously the sort of person that is going to try and assault you is the sort of person that does this on a regular basis, gets in fights, been in trouble with the police, carries a weapon himself. ... don't go there

mr_eddy

I do see your point although carrying a spare handlebar on a bike I reckon would be hard to prove was an intentional weapon, I would just claim I was bringing home some spares from work and its too tall for my bag (which is true).

Maybe I just need to be a bit more Ghandi about it all. It is hard tho and I suspect anyone from a smaller less agro town may not understand how bad it can be. Nottingham is a total sh*t hole and at some point I am moving.

I suppose I am just sick and tired of having to justify myself to people who see me as a nuisance. My only hope is that Karma is real and the idiot that attacked me gets totally screwed up and his nasty missus leaves him and he ends up losing his license and has to ride a bike to whatever crap hole house he lives in, that would be karmic irony.

fenix

Dude - you've just told us all of your plans - In Nottingham with the 'spare' handlebars....

This is the easiest game of Cluedo ever.

mr_eddy

Lol - Yep I would make a very bad criminal mastermind!

Does anyone else feel that some people out there are basically a mistake and there very existence is contaminating the gene pool. If these people just disappeared as harsh as it sounds the world would be a better place for it.

Reading fat daddy's post and in truth I think he is right so I will forget the whole idea, I realize that by going ahead with a defensive weapon ultimately would just make me as bad as him. The difference is however that I chose to discuss the issue first on this forum.

Thanks for the advice - Lets just hope that these scum bags end up killing each other and die out

Ta.

fenix

99.99% of people are fine - focus on the nice people - and not the dregs.

Unless you're american and end up voting for that 0.01% into power.

slowbike

I really wouldn't have a weapon to go against someone threatening you - unless you're prepared to go the whole way ... If you really want a weapon - you're riding one. I used my bike a good few years ago when threatened outside the school gates (a long long time ago) - I got off, picked up my bike - threw it at him - picked up my bike, got on and rode off - he didn't bother me after that - that's the thing with bullys - bark is often worse than their bite ...

mr_eddy wrote:

I already have Hi Vis - My back pack is luminous yellow and my helmet is bright orange. I have my lights in Daytime mode everyday and they are very bright so visibility is not my problem.

Ok - perhaps you're looking too much like a dweeb ... so you're appearing vulnerable to other road users who take advantage of that.
Keep the lights - but ditch your hi-vis - swap your helmet to a muted colour - look more like a "proper cyclist" and see if that makes a difference?

RutlandGav

You have my sympathies. I have also lived and worked in that city, had abuse shouted at me from drivers but honestly I was far more worried about the pedestrians, to the extent that I'd rather take my chances on the road than risk cycle paths after dark.

Of course the particular kind of pedestrian that poses a threat associates in groups, is fond of headgear and man made fibres, likes to cover their face with ski masks and bandanas, and tends to acquire ABSOs and non-custodial sentences for "petty crimes" such as assault, ABH, robbery and possession of an offensive weapon.

I got lucky - my job moved outside the city and so did I. I no longer worry about secluded pathways, cycling into cul-de-sacs (getting cornered !) and am quite happy to walk to my local shop with headphones on.

BobMcbob

Buy yourself a stab vest, and have your D-Lock close by just in case you need to use it (to lock the bike up of course).

tangled_metal

I worked with a die-hard cyclist. Him and his mate carried certain tools to take revenge on drivers who they thought needed re-educating. One guy had a metal frame pump and the other had a chain whip with extra links on the end. Both tools they thought would get around dangerous weapons laws. Although they said the most they'd do was catch them at the next lights and take some lights out before sprinting through the next set of lights before the motorist. I told him he was a prat and Mr eddy so are you!

Several points, unless you know how to use weapons, even improvised ones it'll probably get taken off you. Once taken away from you do you not think it'll.be used against you?

Second, legally if it's used as a weapon and you have no genuine reason to.carry it then you could very easily be in the sh1t. BTW just carrying it home isn't a good excuse because they'll probably ask for a receipt to show you were only carrying home. I've heard of a guy getting stopped with a knife in a fishing and gun shop bag. Nearly got arrested but had the receipt for it so could prove he was taking it home. Still got told to go straight home instead of getting the rest of his shopping.

Third, you need self defence lessons. That'll give you more confidence. However you'll not like the most important advice. This is run away! Either don't get yourself into a situation but if you do run. If you can't get away do as little as you have to in the way of fighting in order to give.yourself a chance of getting away.

BTW I got told that no matter how well you've been trained in.self defence and martial arts there's always the lucky shot to drop you. That's from a guy who was something like 5th Dan in ju-jitsu, similar in karate, aikido and judo. He's now 7th Dan and head of a certain martial arts style as registered in Japan by an international martial arts body.

I've only had 2 years training (several months of injury though which is to be expected with ju-jitsu). My priorities are to avoid confrontation at any cost. Then run away, or cycle away. Last resort is to take legs out then run away.

Round here there's a load of, how can I not sound prejudiced, travellers of Irish origin. Their culture includes fighting. Well round here that's true. There's history of bare knuckle fights and a few make a living as cage fighters. So personally I'm relying on being faster or more agile on my bike. But mostly on keeping my head down and avoiding trouble.

shaun668

I'm lucky and have had no confrontations yet but i'm sure this will change in the future, personally I wouldn't back down but can understand those who will as i'm confident in my own ability to look after myself having practised Muay Thai boxing for a number of years and had a number of fights.
In my experience a lot of people are more than happy to insult and intimidate you thinking that you won't react and will gain confidence from this and will vent their anger at you even more if you don't say or do anything. If you stand your ground and front it out they will usually back down if they don't I would be more than happy to take things further.

fenix

Nah mate - just get out of there. You can't outpunch a car.

ben@31

1. Ignore them. Don't say a word. Some are just fishing for a reaction. If you gob off and retaliate it doesnt look good in video evidence, it'll do you more harm than good. If a car driver said something to me I'd only reply "I dont give a fuck about your opinion" and cycle off.
2. Buy a helmet cam or blatantly take their photo with you phone, with flash on. Try to get the registration and make sure they know it, if theres photo footage this will make them think twice about assaulting someone.

If you act in any violent way, you open yourself up to prosecution by the police or may cause the car driver to smash you up. And you'll always lose against a nutter in 2 tonnes of metal.

tangled_metal

I knew a guy who broke the arm of a mugger with a knife. On a train so confined space to move. He got arrested, interviewed and released on police bail with the clear understanding this was going to trial because he was a very skilled martial artist. His skills counted against him.

If you have martial arts skills and get into a fight then even if you weren't the aggressor it is likely to end up with you being prosecuted not the less skilled aggressor.

In the above case there wasn't any action taken against the drug addict mugger. The defender was not prosecuted but only because a senior police officer in the local constabulary who had worked with him (not the transport police who wanted to prosecute) had a word in the right ear. Happy ending but expected considering the guy's job involved training police instructors and recruits in unarmed restraint techniques. It's who you know that gets you out of trouble i guess.

So isn't it better to distance yourself from trouble than risk involvement in the wrong end of the law? Irrespective of the risk your opponent could be a professional cage fighter trained in several forms of martial arts. BTW near me there is a bit of a hotspot for boxing and especially cage fighting. Also bare knuckle but that's in a certain subset of society so less of an issue I think.

BTW I learnt ju-jitsu, highly regarded as an effective material art well suited to.self defence. I'd still get out of there if trouble found me. Then I guess that's what our instructor used to teach. Muay Thai instructors are teaching controlled aggression in their sport just like boxing I reckon. Having trained with a muay Thai boxer (apparently several sashes up or whatever the ranking system his coach had). We were training in ju-jitsu and I was belts up on him. I taught him a lesson because at our dojo we pull our punches a bit for safety reasons. Since he wasn't i stopped pulling them and knocked him on his @are. He pulled his punches after that. Point is you'd be surprised who is trained in martial arts too and you never know who could hurt you badly. Trust me, a 4 foot something lass I sparred with, if I couldn't get out of it first, used to totally batter me in training. We had the same belt so should have been equal. It's just in her naturally to be good.

fat daddy

Fenix wrote:

Nah mate - just get out of there. You can't outpunch a car.

most road cyclists couldn't out punch an 8 year old girl .... now repeatedly kicking really quickly for about 6 hours solid .... that would be a doable form of defence

tangled_metal

I've seen a ballerina kick the sh1t out of a mugger once. They have seriously strong legs and it doesn't help the mugger trying to take the bag while he's in perfect striking range of her legs.

So there could be some physiological strength the cyclist has to his advantage in a fight. You just have to be in a position to make it work. Play to your strengths. Lie on your back and kick like you're in a sprint! BTW if you know what you're doing it's not even a weakness of position being on your back with your opponent standing over you. You just need to know what you need to do.

Indeed fighting a big enough boxer you're probably better off taking it to the ground as you'll not out punch in a boxer unless you're a better one. Plus they know how to take a punch. Now their legs are definitely fair game. It's just a matter of working out how much damage you want to do!

fenix

Given an option of lying down or getting away - I know what I'm going for......

ben@31

Tangled Metal wrote:

I've seen a ballerina kick the sh1t out of a mugger once. They have seriously strong legs and it doesn't help the mugger trying to take the bag while he's in perfect striking range of her legs.

So there could be some physiological strength the cyclist has to his advantage in a fight. You just have to be in a position to make it work. Play to your strengths. Lie on your back and kick like you're in a sprint! BTW if you know what you're doing it's not even a weakness of position being on your back with your opponent standing over you. You just need to know what you need to do.

Indeed fighting a big enough boxer you're probably better off taking it to the ground as you'll not out punch in a boxer unless you're a better one. Plus they know how to take a punch. Now their legs are definitely fair game. It's just a matter of working out how much damage you want to do!

No mention of the police turning up to see you hitting someone.
At worst you will get charged with assault, at best BOTH get charged with a public order offence like affray or breach of the peace. Just because you have a disagreement doesnt mean you can hit someone in public.

fat daddy

Fenix wrote:

Given an option of lying down or getting away - I know what I'm going for......

damn right ... if nothing else having your body filled with the fight or flight adrenalin is going to do wonders for your Strava segments as you launch up the road in the big cog

tangled_metal

Too bloody right. Flight not fight IMHO every time.

My lying down comment was in response to.a.previous post about using a cyclists ability to make rapid feet movements for 6 hours as a defence. The example of playing to one's strength was the case of a.ballerina sat in the car seat so tyre legs were free to defend to her strengths against an attacker. I was postulating that if unable to flee a cyclist could only use his leg strengths as a defence if on the floor. Certain martial arts teach defence from the floor and it isn't as weak a position as you'd think. Not where or be of course, any sign of trouble I'll be scooting off trying to get to where cars can't.go as quick as I could.

Then again I'm not like the belligerent poster talking about carrying a spare handlebar in case of road rage.

Leon4646

Hey, here is my advice, am a black belt in bjj under carlson gracie, i would never fight for pride i would never fight over traffic, i would never fight anyone unless they insisit and basicly come in my space. what i do is ask them to let it go and just move on and that its not worth it if they keep insisting i would try and keep space if they walk into that space with an intend to attack then just do what you have to do to deffend yourself, once you done stopping him or if you notice that he stopped leave as fast as possible.

ManiaMuse

Here's my advice from cycling in Manchester for the last couple of years which has its fair share of twattish drivers (I'm from Nottingham though so feel your pain about cyclist hating drivers).

If someone is aggressively beeping or swearing:

1. Ignore them and don't say/gesticulate anything
2. Ignore them and don't say/gesticulate anything
3. If you catch up with them at the next set of lights/queue of traffic don't bother overtaking and sitting in front of them, it just tends to wind them up more
4. Ignore them and don't say/gesticulate anything

If someone is consciously trying to scare/attack you with their vehicle (swerving at you, brake checking etc), for whatever reason:

1. Mount the pavement as soon as possible, stop and point your bike in the opposite direction
2. If they actually stop and get out of their vehicle then you can just cycle off and leave them for dust while they waste their breath running and shouting
3. If they try to do a U-turn and chase after you in their vehicle then remember you can easily out manoeuvre them on a bike, just keep changing direction or aim for a queue of traffic or pedestrianised area if there is one nearby.

Honestly starting a fight, either with words or fists, really isn't worth the effort. You won't change their point of view and you will spend the whole day feeling angry about it but if you just ignore it you can bask is the smug satisfaction that whoever it is has angry man/woman syndrome and you don't.

Namanari

Avoidance at all costs is the safest option, considering how physical disputes can escalate out of all proportion to their origin.

Speaking from a policing perspective, the whole issue of use of force (even in self defence) is a legal minefield ideally entered into only when you have no choice.

Although people assume that if they are decent people doing their best then the criminal justice system will recognise that, the unfortunate reality is that 'the law is an ass'.

It's possible for a 'nonsense' incident to escalate into something where criminal offences are disclosed that will take months or years to resolve, and that's aside from the potential civil aftermath.

A significant factor is that the use of force in self defence is measured by awkward yardsticks, and retrospectively (meaning much monday morning quarterbacking goes on). An incident can unfold in a totally unforeseen way, and it's possible for one party to be the aggressor at the outset of an incident, and for minor offences to be disclosed by them, only for them to become the injured party if it is later deemed that the force used on them was disproportionate or unecessary.

Any use of ad hoc 'just happened to have them with me, officer' items is a fool's game and is likely to be seen through almost immediately.

The last suggestion I would make is that it's worth considering that if you are regularly in disputes of any kind then it's worth evaluating whether there is a pattern of behaviour on your part that is a factor. The common denominator in all the incidents being yourself. Yes, some people are genuinely unlucky and some areas are rougher than others, but just as the victims of mugging are self-selected through their own behaviour some road users, whether cyclists or pedestrians, seem to consistently find themselves involved in avoidable incidents. That's not to victim-blame or sound preachy - I have to rein myself in as much as anyone else.

tangled_metal

That makes sense to me. I've never been near such an altercation whether in the car or on.the bike. At most a horn or swear word hurled at me then instantly forgotten by both sides, as we have already moved on down the road.

A mate at university got beaten up. He then started to carry a knife. He got beaten up a few times. I never saw any trouble like that. I'm not sure being a 6'5" tall bloke compared to his 5'8" height had anything to do with it because I was a streak of p1ss who probably looked easy target. I think it was down to attitude and body language.

Another guy defended.himself against a knife attack injuring his attacker. He nearly got persecuted because he was the weapon being a high level martial artist. The knife wielder was a glue sniffing drug addict desperate for his next fix. That guy was.lucky he didn't get any further action taken.

So I see a lot of sense in the view that our behaviours can influence others significantly and violence can very easily end up in the defender getting into.trouble as well as the aggressor.

Keep safe, keep your distance if trouble is brewing.

dodgy

Echo the above, just get out of there, play the grey man as they say in certain circles, make yourself non-rememberable.

Some of these nutters have nice cars. Serve it cold...