Refused warranty

Briggo

forest2003 wrote:

They are obviously trying it on as they obviously don't know what their looking at it or they'd know it's not been crashed, simply because it hasn't been.

Theres a difference between a crash and stones flicking up.

That stay has marks around the break, they don't occur because the carbon snaps to failure they are there because somethings hit or has rubbed on it.

Now it could be because it did just snap and you continued to ride on it at which point got caught in the spokes? But on a picture alone it looks like it's more than just a failure of the frame from their eyes. Something has happened and no it'd not obvious you haven't crashed it.

Edit - why is fli cking sensored eh?

forest2003

Soooo, long time no update but.....

Finally heard back from the manufacturer and the results of the scan and lab test. The material thickness is within tolerance and there is no creases in the layup of the carbon and therefore they say the damage is consistent with that of an impact.

Therefore they offered me a discount for a crash replacement.

I have replied to them saying I intend to take legal action and return my frame.

I'm still waiting to hear from my credit card company......

fenix

Have you investigated how much a repair would be ?

reformedfatty

So you've sent them a frame with damage around the site of the break, they've done more checking than most manufacturers would have, and declared it crash damage.

Versus

you saying 'I haven't crashed it'

I'm not saying you did crash it, but if you look at the balance of evidence, which argument do you think an adjudicator would find more compelling?

forest2003

In all honesty, I don't think I want a repair, the bike has broken under normal use and therefore I don't think it's fit for purpose.

fenix

A repair would make that chain stay stronger than before. You rode a bike with one seatstay for 7 minutes - that's pretty good going from the frame. The damage does look like an impact and they've reports that will say that everything is normal with the frame.

I admire your gumption but I'm not sure how long it will go on and how much riding you'll miss out on.

forest2003

The bike hasn't been crashed or impacted and that's why this case is not clear cut. If I had maybe if done something fair enough, take it on the chin, but I haven't! It annoys me that I have spent £1500 on a frame, it broke just through riding it and now I'm screwed! The companies own inspection procedures will always fall in favour of themselves, I'd have been extremely surprised if they had done a u turn and sent me a new frame. I still find it hard to believe how the alleged impact could have happened. If a rock had flew up and hit the frame, what are the chances it had completely missed my leg/foot/crank arm? i still have another 4 bikes to keep me going until it's resolved so I'm prepared to be patient.

rockmonkeysc

You've got no chance. There's evidence of crash damage with the abrasion marks and nothing but your word in your favour.

cooldad

You could have an independent inspection done. Or carry on via the bank. Or go to court.
But convincing people here won't achieve anything.

forest2003

RockmonkeySC wrote:

You've got no chance. There's evidence of crash damage with the abrasion marks and nothing but your word in your favour.

And the fact there isn't another mark anywhere on the bike or damage to any of the other components. Impossible for this magnitude of damage to happen in a crash without so much as a bent brake lever or buckled wheel. Abrasion on the underneath of a seat stay is not gonna happen in a million years through a crash, the only way that abrasion could have happened is someone intentionally damaging it.

Also look closely at the pictures, look at the direction of the abrasions. They are not all in the same direction as you would expect from one crash or impact, the abrasions look like multiple hits or rubbing, not the kind of damage i would expect to see from a fall.

Will see what happens, I have nothing more to lose, I ain't handing over another £700 to them for it to potentially happen again. if anything I will make them spend some money by taking them to court.

forest2003

cooldad wrote:

You could have an independent inspection done. Or carry on via the bank. Or go to court.
But convincing people here won't achieve anything.

I see what your saying, just feel like people are trying to call me a liar. But don't see what people think I have to gain by doing so......

apreading

cooldad wrote:

You could have an independent inspection done.

This is your only route forward - find an independant expert to disagree with them and back up your story. Whether its the truth or not, whether you are mistaken or not, your word wont have any legal standing against their expert inspection. So you will need to spend some money to pursue it and may or may not get the evidence you want to take the case forward.

If you have a report from an independant expert they may come up with a better offer - that would still be a better outcome for you than going to court.

Going to court is a lottery even when you have strong evidence, and takes time, effort and money.

apreading

forest2003 wrote:

cooldad wrote:

You could have an independent inspection done. Or carry on via the bank. Or go to court.
But convincing people here won't achieve anything.

I see what your saying, just feel like people are trying to call me a liar. But don't see what people think I have to gain by doing so......

I dont think people are saying that you are lying. More that you are maybe mistaken in your belief that because you werent aware of it there was no way in which an impact could have occurred to the bike. I try not to judge either way because I havent seen in the flesh for myself but it seems conceivable that an impact occured to this place without damage elsewhere, somehow. That is credible and seems consistent with the pictures we have seen. But we have only a few pictures on the web to judge it from so its easy to jump to conclusions. I think you believe what you say but I am not 100% sure that belief is correct - there is certainly room for doubt. An expert opinion from someone inspecting the bike first hand and seeing it properly and then backing you up is the way to assuage that doubt.

forest2003

maybe there is an instance where this could happen as an impact, but to me the evidence is not obvious and clear cut, the only way a crash could be proven in my opinion is by further markings or damage on the bike. I feel that in an ambiguous case such as this surely a reputable manufacturer would give the benefit of the doubt. My local bike shop have looked at it and stated that the damage is not clear cut as an impact, they also stated that most of the big brands that they deal with wouldn't have even questioned it, especially at 10 weeks old and covered around 150 miles.

forest2003

And even if there is no flaw in the manufacturing, it still doesn't prove that the bike design is fit for purpose.

fenix

So you'd expect lots of other owners to have problems with the same area of the bike ? Have you heard of any ?

Briggo

forest2003 wrote:

The bike hasn't been crashed or impacted and that's why this case is not clear cut.

To your own admission, you rode the bike without knowing it had broke.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that that statement is true, stop kidding yourself.

FishFish

apreading wrote:

cooldad wrote:

You could have an independent inspection done.

Going to court is a lottery even when you have strong evidence, and takes time, effort and money.

No it is not - judgement is not a random process like a lottery and a small claims court review is inexpensive. There is a strong case. It is a MOUNTAIN BIKE and it broke on a hill!

forest2003

Briggo wrote:

forest2003 wrote:

The bike hasn't been crashed or impacted and that's why this case is not clear cut.

To your own admission, you rode the bike without knowing it had broke.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that that statement is true, stop kidding yourself.

I stated that I knew something was wrong as the bike was squirming underneath me. Although I knew something was wrong I didn't expect it to be the frame. I know I didn't hear or feel anything hard hit the frame. If it was something that hit the frame it must have been the size of a pea.

The abrasions have no way been caused by a single impact.

I'm a mechanical engineer and the company I work for builds machines, part of my job is dealing with warranty claims and analysing why break downs and faults occur. There no way that I would to refuse to warranty one of our machines or parts with no additional evidence of misuse. I would always give the customer the benefit of the doubt, especially with such little use.....

forest2003

Fenix wrote:

So you'd expect lots of other owners to have problems with the same area of the bike ? Have you heard of any ?

No I haven't but I don't think this particular bike is one of the most popular lines this company supply. I certainly haven't seen many other riders on them. In addition most guys that ride these bikes are probably superlight xc racers. I'm a little heftier than them.

rockmonkeysc

FishFish wrote:

It is a MOUNTAIN BIKE and it broke on a hill!

It's an XC race bike, designed for riding which is far from extreme.
Can you prove that it broke on an xc trail and not on a jump. Plus, those abrasions can't be ignored if it goes to court and would probably be the main defence of the manufacturer. Something caused the abrasions and then most likely caused the failure. Abrasions would cause a stress raiser which would lead to a failure.

poah

abrasions would also be cause when he fell off due to the breakage though

rockmonkeysc

But he didn't fall off. He kept going.
It's fairly easy to see whether abrasions happened before or after the failure.

forest2003

There was no fall, the abrasions were caused after the break, by continuing to ride the bike. They are too inconsistent, they vary in direction, depth and length. Not consistent with a single impact. I decided to email the ceo of manufacturer on Thursday and received this reply from his secretary.

thank you very much for your message. We apologize for any difficulties concerning your bike and we absolutely understand your disappointment. This case will be checked by our support team and we are positive that we´ll find a solution to your satisfaction especially since you are so enthusiastic about our bikes. This is something we really appreciate. You are a valued customer and we want to give you the best service performance. You´ll be contacted by our support during the course of today, Monday the very latest.

Let's see what happens!

cooldad

If you've got through to Roman Arnold he'll probably give you a new frame. Decent guy and sees the big picture.

forest2003

Latest email from them.......

thank you for your e-mail from the 3rd of november 2016 to our management.

Your case is being taken care of and thank you bythe way for your feedback.

We will contact you, as soon as possible, to discuss about the mail you send
us, in particular to Mr. ######. It is truly a pity that you had such a
troubled purchasing experience with us and we will come back to you with an
answer and a viable solution for the time and inconveniences you had to
endure.

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

forest2003

Well a bit of a roller coaster of emotions today, the U.K. Customer services called me today, in a nutshell said why have you emailed our management? You're not getting a new frame! Make your mind up, crash replacement or broken frame back! After much swearing he eventually said we're going round in circles I have given you your options make your mind up! I told him to get the frame posted back to me but he hadn't heard the last of me! I then emailed the ceo again and told him what had gone off and if he agreed with his employees stance/attitude on the situation. Received an email back less than an hour later stating that the situation will be resolved to my satisfaction. Less than 15mins after, the attitudey customer service guy called back and apologised for his actions and said a new frame is on its way to me!!!! Success!!!

Moral of the story, persist and you will get there!

Question is do I press them for the fact it's taken 3 months to sort? And a lot of stress?

doomanic

Don't push your luck.

poah

forest2003 wrote:

Well a bit of a roller coaster of emotions today, the U.K. Customer services called me today, in a nutshell said why have you emailed our management? You're not getting a new frame! Make your mind up, crash replacement or broken frame back! After much swearing he eventually said we're going round in circles I have given you your options make your mind up! I told him to get the frame posted back to me but he hadn't heard the last of me! I then emailed the ceo again and told him what had gone off and if he agreed with his employees stance/attitude on the situation. Received an email back less than an hour later stating that the situation will be resolved to my satisfaction. Less than 15mins after, the attitudey customer service guy called back and apologised for his actions and said a new frame is on its way to me!!!! Success!!!

Moral of the story, persist and you will get there!

lol UK guy got told off

apreading

forest2003 wrote:

Question is do I press them for the fact it's taken 3 months to sort? And a lot of stress?

Definately dont do this until you have the replacement in your hands and have checked it over. After that, up to you really.

The more important question should be whether to ride the new bike or not? Is your confidence in the design's ability to stand up you your weight/type of riding etc shaken to the point that you wont feel comfortable in the future? If you have any doubts about whether the replacement might suffer a similar fate then will you sell it on? If not, do you want to maintain as good(!) a relationship as possible with the CEO in case you have to go through the same process again.