Relegation from WT

2

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  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    edited September 2016
    Am I right in thinking that it's only "WT" classified races that award riders (and thus their teams) points towards the "WorldTour" ranking? If that's case, what with the ToB being a 2.HC classification, Steve Cummings' win counts for absolutely nothing for DD in that regard.

    That seems to be what this chart suggests:

    http://www.uci.html.infostradasports.co ... ID=1444805

    Edited to add: KingstonGraham beat me to it!
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    edited September 2016
    RichN95 wrote:
    (*in case you hadn't noticed - no reason you should - the UCI now have two rankings. A rolling World Ranking (1st Sagan) and an annual World Tour Ranking (1st Quintana))

    Isn't the "World Ranking" the points accumulated for all UCI events and the "WorldTour Ranking" is the points accumulated in just the 27 WT-classified events? Not sure what you meant by "rolling", but I think both are based only on this season's races.

    Each team's "WorldTour Ranking" is the sum of the "WorldTour Ranking" points of it's top 5 riders, so it doesn't pay at all to show up to "small shyte" races as someone else put it, it pays to put all your eggs in the WT-classified races and sack the rest off. Obviously that's probably not what your sponsors want and it sounds (from the inrng article) that few DSs would've anticipated this as a major issue earlier in the season, because it's only since Bahrain-Merida decided to go solo (i.e. without Lampre) that the scrabble for WT spots became apparent. It was only the season before last that the UCI were struggling to fill all 18 spots!

    As for the ranking points for stage race stage wins vs general classifications vs one-day races, it does seem that the former is rather under-weighted. The UCI website is clear-as-mud obviously, but it has lots of different numbers and tables on!

    http://uci.ch/road/ranking/
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    BuckMulligan wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    (*in case you hadn't noticed - no reason you should - the UCI now have two rankings. A rolling World Ranking (1st Sagan) and an annual World Tour Ranking (1st Quintana))

    Isn't the "World Ranking" the points accumulated for all UCI events and the "WorldTour Ranking" is the points accumulated in just the 27 WT-classified events? Not sure what you meant by "rolling", but I think both are based only on this season's races.
    The new World Ranking started at the beginning of this year - but it will be on going after this year and based on the previous twelve month period rather than starting back at zero at the start of each season. Some come next February Sagan will probably still be number 1 rather than the Tour Down Under winner. (A bit link the CQ or PCS rankings - which were based on old UCI rankings).
    The World Tour ranking starts back at zero at the start of each season.

    (And as you say. the World Ranking is calculated from many more races)

    Inner Ring's blog about it, which is far easier to read than anything the UCI put out: http://inrng.com/2016/01/new-uci-rankings-system/
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    Nice, the "World Ranking" makes sense and the rolling 12-months (or whatever period) is how lots of other sports go about their overall rankings (e.g. tennis, golf).

    But at the end of the day, what is that actually used for anything other than bragging rights and rider's wage negotiations?! As we've already discussed, the "WorldTour ranking" is what Dimension Data are struggling with and it seems dumb to penalise them based on their performance in what is only a fraction of their season.

    Edited to add: Hahaha, this comment from the inrng article you linked is priceless:
    As a fan, cycling is more enjoyable if you pretend the UCI doesn’t exist.
  • dish_dash
    dish_dash Posts: 5,558
    BuckMulligan wrote:
    Nice, the "World Ranking" makes sense and the rolling 12-months (or whatever period) is how lots of other sports go about their overall rankings (e.g. tennis, golf).

    But at the end of the day, what is that actually used for anything other than bragging rights and rider's wage negotiations?! As we've already discussed, the "WorldTour ranking" is what Dimension Data are struggling with and it seems dumb to penalise them based on their performance in what is only a fraction of their season.

    Edited to add: Hahaha, this comment from the inrng article you linked is priceless:
    As a fan, cycling is more enjoyable if you pretend the UCI doesn’t exist.

    Eh? If the WT isn't the majority of their season then they should drop out of the WT...
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    It's only a hunch, but I'd guess that the WT-classified events probably only account for maybe 50% of the race-days of most World Tour teams.

    It's probably a valid point that they should be targeting those events more aggressively though.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Dimension Data are struggling with the fact they don't have a GC man and haven't done well enough in one day races. They have won plenty of stages in races. Unlike Cannondale who've won next to nothing all year but have accumulated plenty of top 10s when it matters.

    It's a bit broken IMO.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    BuckMulligan wrote:
    It's only a hunch, but I'd guess that the WT-classified events probably only account for maybe 50% of the race-days of most World Tour teams.

    It's probably a valid point that they should be targeting those events more aggressively though.
    Going by Sky's race schedule (as it's easy to look at on their website) they have about 145 race days in the World Tour and around 80 other races days
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    200 points for winning the WCRR, 100 for the ITT.

    TDD are 120 ish behind TGA, and a few more off AGR. TGA have Dumoulin and Degenkolb, TDD only really have Cav, and AGR don't really have anyone although they have a couple of options for Lombardia.
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    RichN95 wrote:
    Going by Sky's race schedule (as it's easy to look at on their website) they have about 145 race days in the World Tour and around 80 other races days
    Hmmm, that's very interesting, cheers for looking that up!

    Joelsim wrote:
    200 points for winning the WCRR, 100 for the ITT.
    TDD are 120 ish behind TGA, and a few more off AGR. TGA have Dumoulin and Degenkolb, TDD only really have Cav, and AGR don't really have anyone although they have a couple of options for Lombardia.
    Again, you're confusing World Ranking points with WorldTour Ranking points, they're different and the UCI Road World Championships don't offer any of the latter, which TDD need. The only WorldTour Ranking points still available are for the currently ongoing Eneco Tour and then Il Lombardia
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    Does seem a bit warped when a team that was as visible as Dimension Data is so far behind Cannondale who have done almost nothing this year. Pretty sure Cannondale's sole contribution at WT level has been to get their awful helmet and glasses combos into breakaways which they then fail to win from.

    I get the need for a system like this but the way they have set it up seems to lead to some perverse incentives.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,230
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Does seem a bit warped when a team that was as visible as Dimension Data is so far behind Cannondale who have done almost nothing this year. Pretty sure Cannondale's sole contribution at WT level has been to get their awful helmet and glasses combos into breakaways which they then fail to win from.

    I get the need for a system like this but the way they have set it up seems to lead to some perverse incentives.

    They are obliged to send a team to every WT event, this should make sure they try in them as well.

    However, it doesn't coincide with the visibility the sponsors would want.
  • Crozza
    Crozza Posts: 991
    Relegation should be decided by cycling fans globally via an x-factor style vote
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Crozza wrote:
    Relegation should be decided by cycling fans globally via an x-factor style vote

    In which case you know exactly which team would get relegated.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    Joelsim wrote:
    Crozza wrote:
    Relegation should be decided by cycling fans globally via an x-factor style vote

    In which case you know exactly which team would get relegated.
    It depends if it's a vote to 'save' or a vote to 'evict'
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Bo Duke
    Bo Duke Posts: 1,058
    Thats very disappointing if true, TDD have been exciting to watch, some brave stage wins, great fun.
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    I'm in 2 minds about this:

    1. If they knew about the points system (which you would hope so) and wanted to stay in the world tour they should have had a different strategy

    2. Cannondale did this and they've been as dull as ditchwater. Team DD were a joy to watch but didn't "play the game"
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  • Crozza
    Crozza Posts: 991
    Paul 8v wrote:
    I'm in 2 minds about this:

    1. If they knew about the points system (which you would hope so) and wanted to stay in the world tour they should have had a different strategy

    2. Cannondale did this and they've been as dull as ditchwater. Team DD were a joy to watch but didn't "play the game"

    me too

    its reasonable to think that their sponsors have told them that they would value the exposure of stage/race wins (particularly at TdF) above consistent mediocrity and being associated with a boring WT team
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    I think we can all agree that any ranking system that places Cannondale above TDD based on this year's racing is w@nk. It's surely not above the wit of mankind to do something better than this?
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Crozza
    Crozza Posts: 991
    That's where Frenchie's gone - on secondment to the UCI to develop their new points system.

    Consistent, but boring, racing will result in automatic relegation. As will being British.

    If you hail from the Iberian peninsula and have a whiffy past you will likely score well, but ultimately the champion will be decided on the basis of sock colour and length.
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    Crozza wrote:
    That's where Frenchie's gone - on secondment to the UCI to develop their new points system.

    Consistent, but boring, racing will result in automatic relegation. As will being British.

    If you hail from the Iberian peninsula and have a whiffy past you will likely score well, but ultimately the champion will be Alberto Contador.

    FTFY :lol:
  • onyourright
    onyourright Posts: 509
    Bahrain – Merida manager Brent Copeland:

    “Right now, to buy a rider with more points than 70 would cost a fortune.”

    It’s a peculiar situation.
  • kleinstroker
    kleinstroker Posts: 2,133
    So a riders value is locked up in the points he has amassed?
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,230
    kleinstroker wrote:
    So a riders value is locked up in the points he has amassed?

    And it could be a one off final payday for Purito, without any requirement to do any actual riding next year? Or am I reading that wrong?
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    kleinstroker wrote:
    So a riders value is locked up in the points he has amassed?

    For a team hoping to get in the WT, yes.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,612
    The principle of the WT I wholeheartedly agree with - forcing the big teams to race all year around if they want to stay in the WT.

    Dimension Data basically turned up for the Tour - but I can't really remember them being a force the rest of the year.

    Cannondale were present at least in the sense I saw them trying all year around.

    So i'm a bit more sympathetic. Cannondale really gave the Giro & Vuelta GC a decent stab - they just weren't up to it.
    _
  • kleinstroker
    kleinstroker Posts: 2,133
    And points are transferred with riders, so a team like Bahrain_merida can have more points than Dimension Data even though they have never had a race.

    Seems a bit mental does it not?
  • onyourright
    onyourright Posts: 509
    What’s the alternative, though?
  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    Surely just total all the points the team has amassed in the year?
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    Paul 8v wrote:
    Surely just total all the points the team has amassed in the year?
    The problem is that the sport works on an economic model which relies on team sponsors. The system has to be such that it attracts those sponsors. A World Tour level sponsor wants value for its money and won't be satisfied relying on wildcards and goodwill to get into big races.
    Twitter: @RichN95

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