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Blokes and sexism

haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,903
edited September 2016 in The cake stop
Apologies if this has been done before and apologies for opening this can of worms but I've been thinking about it for a while. Like most people I've always enjoyed a good sexist joke and I've always found hypersensitive feminists extremely annoying, it's always seemed a bit of a non-issue to me because I'm not often exposed to guys with openly sexist views. I assumed most guys thought the same

Recently I've noticed a few jokey conversations with some guys about women where I'm not actually convinced that they are joking, certainly one of them isn't. I don't know if it is relevant but we are all young ish, pretty middle class, degree educated with good jobs in a professional setting. I'm not talking about opinions on pay gaps and statistics which could be explained by lots of things, more "women have no work ethic" and "men can't stay away from home for work because their wives won't accept it anymore" type of thing. There are many more examples

Out of interest I wondered if it happens more than I think, do lots of people have generally derogatory opinions of women? Am I breaking ranks by not joining in with the 'there's no women around so we can say what we really think' group? Do any of you guys find yourselves doing it too?
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  • Any pics of any norks to supplement your post with?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,903
    Unfortunately the only two females (secretaries) who work for my company are based in a different office, sorry...
  • OP, you'd have to be more specific as to what kind of stuff these people are saying.

    Personally though I don't find feminists annoying, if I disagree with them I'd say so same as any other "ist" but often I might agree with them anyway. Neither do I find I mix with a lot of people who express shockingly sexist views though so no I don't think lots of people have derogatory views on women or at least if they do they don't express them around me.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • haydenm wrote:
    Unfortunately the only two females (secretaries) who work for my company are based in a different office, sorry...

    My precocious reply taken in the vein it was meant: i.e. Childish banter. Chapeau :)

    On a serious note, I work in (possibly) the most sexist organization in the world and some of it is very, very cringeworthy, but the ladies give easily (if not more) as good as they get. Can't condone any of it from eith sex but it does happen.....
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • Alex99Alex99 Posts: 1,407
    haydenm wrote:
    Apologies if this has been done before and apologies for opening this can of worms but I've been thinking about it for a while. Like most people I've always enjoyed a good sexist joke and I've always found hypersensitive feminists extremely annoying, it's always seemed a bit of a non-issue to me because I'm not often exposed to guys with openly sexist views. I assumed most guys thought the same

    Recently I've noticed a few jokey conversations with some guys about women where I'm not actually convinced that they are joking, certainly one of them isn't. I don't know if it is relevant but we are all young ish, pretty middle class, degree educated with good jobs in a professional setting. I'm not talking about opinions on pay gaps and statistics which could be explained by lots of things, more "women have no work ethic" and "men can't stay away from home for work because their wives won't accept it anymore" type of thing. There are many more examples

    Out of interest I wondered if it happens more than I think, do lots of people have generally derogatory opinions of women? Am I breaking ranks by not joining in with the 'there's no women around so we can say what we really think' group? Do any of you guys find yourselves doing it too?

    "women have no work ethic" - I don't recognise this sentiment at all. If anyone seriosuly tried to espouse that opinion in the company of men where I work, they would just seem like complete idiots detached from reality. No need for correction based on sexist sensibilities.

    Other conversations with friends outside of work would normally be along the lines of 'aren't women nuts, and men so reasonable and level headed' plus other general moans. Don't think that amounts to anything too offensive though.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 14,183
    For open sexism may I suggest partaking in a hen night.
    Opened my eyes forever more as an impressionable youth.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,903
    Alex99 wrote:
    haydenm wrote:
    Apologies if this has been done before and apologies for opening this can of worms but I've been thinking about it for a while. Like most people I've always enjoyed a good sexist joke and I've always found hypersensitive feminists extremely annoying, it's always seemed a bit of a non-issue to me because I'm not often exposed to guys with openly sexist views. I assumed most guys thought the same

    Recently I've noticed a few jokey conversations with some guys about women where I'm not actually convinced that they are joking, certainly one of them isn't. I don't know if it is relevant but we are all young ish, pretty middle class, degree educated with good jobs in a professional setting. I'm not talking about opinions on pay gaps and statistics which could be explained by lots of things, more "women have no work ethic" and "men can't stay away from home for work because their wives won't accept it anymore" type of thing. There are many more examples

    Out of interest I wondered if it happens more than I think, do lots of people have generally derogatory opinions of women? Am I breaking ranks by not joining in with the 'there's no women around so we can say what we really think' group? Do any of you guys find yourselves doing it too?

    "women have no work ethic" - I don't recognise this sentiment at all. If anyone seriosuly tried to espouse that opinion in the company of men where I work, they would just seem like complete idiots detached from reality. No need for correction based on sexist sensibilities.

    Straight from the horse's mouth. He sort of said it with a laugh as if we were all supposed to agree with him but it wasn't a joke
  • Alex99Alex99 Posts: 1,407
    haydenm wrote:
    Alex99 wrote:
    haydenm wrote:
    Apologies if this has been done before and apologies for opening this can of worms but I've been thinking about it for a while. Like most people I've always enjoyed a good sexist joke and I've always found hypersensitive feminists extremely annoying, it's always seemed a bit of a non-issue to me because I'm not often exposed to guys with openly sexist views. I assumed most guys thought the same

    Recently I've noticed a few jokey conversations with some guys about women where I'm not actually convinced that they are joking, certainly one of them isn't. I don't know if it is relevant but we are all young ish, pretty middle class, degree educated with good jobs in a professional setting. I'm not talking about opinions on pay gaps and statistics which could be explained by lots of things, more "women have no work ethic" and "men can't stay away from home for work because their wives won't accept it anymore" type of thing. There are many more examples

    Out of interest I wondered if it happens more than I think, do lots of people have generally derogatory opinions of women? Am I breaking ranks by not joining in with the 'there's no women around so we can say what we really think' group? Do any of you guys find yourselves doing it too?

    "women have no work ethic" - I don't recognise this sentiment at all. If anyone seriosuly tried to espouse that opinion in the company of men where I work, they would just seem like complete idiots detached from reality. No need for correction based on sexist sensibilities.

    Straight from the horse's mouth. He sort of said it with a laugh as if we were all supposed to agree with him but it wasn't a joke

    It sounds like he's paid a price already
  • Harry182Harry182 Posts: 1,096
    What's wrong with being sexy?

    ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3Qn1uH ... sucktastic )
  • crakercraker Posts: 2,060
    My wife is something of a feminist (that's not meant as a pejorative) and one standard she uses is - would it still be alright if you reversed the sexes? So a bunch of women declaiming that men have no work ethic is, well, sexist.

    Post this one on Mumsnet and see what they say ;-)
  • craker wrote:
    My wife is something of a feminist (that's not meant as a pejorative) and one standard she uses is - would it still be alright if you reversed the sexes? So a bunch of women declaiming that men have no work ethic is, well, sexist.

    Post this one on Mumsnet and see what they say ;-)

    We tried that about 3 years - well some burd called Yossina did. Do a search on here for the results (or can someone please post a link to our thread).

    It went quite well if I remember correctly.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • Alex99 wrote:
    haydenm wrote:
    Alex99 wrote:
    haydenm wrote:
    Apologies if this has been done before and apologies for opening this can of worms but I've been thinking about it for a while. Like most people I've always enjoyed a good sexist joke and I've always found hypersensitive feminists extremely annoying, it's always seemed a bit of a non-issue to me because I'm not often exposed to guys with openly sexist views. I assumed most guys thought the same

    Recently I've noticed a few jokey conversations with some guys about women where I'm not actually convinced that they are joking, certainly one of them isn't. I don't know if it is relevant but we are all young ish, pretty middle class, degree educated with good jobs in a professional setting. I'm not talking about opinions on pay gaps and statistics which could be explained by lots of things, more "women have no work ethic" and "men can't stay away from home for work because their wives won't accept it anymore" type of thing. There are many more examples

    Out of interest I wondered if it happens more than I think, do lots of people have generally derogatory opinions of women? Am I breaking ranks by not joining in with the 'there's no women around so we can say what we really think' group? Do any of you guys find yourselves doing it too?

    "women have no work ethic" - I don't recognise this sentiment at all. If anyone seriosuly tried to espouse that opinion in the company of men where I work, they would just seem like complete idiots detached from reality. No need for correction based on sexist sensibilities.

    Straight from the horse's mouth. He sort of said it with a laugh as if we were all supposed to agree with him but it wasn't a joke

    It sounds like he's paid a price already

    He may be saying it with the narrow-minded view of only equating hard work with the physically demanding menial jobs which still seem to be the preserve of men, some people do think like that. Doesn't sound like we can credit him with such a mistake though from what you say.
  • pblakeney wrote:
    For open sexism may I suggest partaking in a hen night.
    Opened my eyes forever more as an impressionable youth.


    In what capacity?
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 44,009
    craker wrote:
    Post this one in Commuting Chat and see what they say ;-)
    FTFY.
    Whippet
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    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 14,183
    pblakeney wrote:
    For open sexism may I suggest partaking in a hen night.
    Opened my eyes forever more as an impressionable youth.


    In what capacity?
    I happened to be in a pub with a pal when a hen night group including my sister came in.
    We were invited to join them and I learned a lot about the "fair" sex that night. Men are tame.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • SecteurSecteur Posts: 1,971
    haydenm wrote:
    Like most people I've always enjoyed a good sexist joke and I've always found hypersensitive feminists extremely annoying, it's always seemed a bit of a non-issue to me because I'm not often exposed to guys with openly sexist views. I assumed most guys thought the same

    I think you have shot yourself in the foot with your opening line, OP.

    And no, not all guys think the same.

    I'm certainly not a bleeding heart liberal, but I would (and have) interrupted "openly sexist" statements and challenged them. Partly out of bloody mindedness, I must admit, but partly because I like to think people who make strong views on any subject are willing to defend and argue their case.
  • I think you'll struggle to get guys to admit they're sexist, just as you would women.

    Did you ask this chap if he's being serious, or are you assuming? Sometimes it's better asking in an honest, non-judging way, and you may be pleasantly surprised.

    In life we are always going to come across sexist people, just as we will racists etc etc - it's ongoing.

    If you feel offended, ask what angle he's coming from.

    Edit: actually, if he said it whilst chuckling, which is what your post says, then he may actually be joking.

    I'm very dry and sarcastic, have often had laughs with women about childbirth saying things like 'you proper make a mountain of a molehill with it, don't you! If men had to do it we'd just crack on and get pushing it out..' with a straight face, but people know I'm joking.

    I guess it depends on this chaps character.
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,903
    Secteur wrote:
    haydenm wrote:
    Like most people I've always enjoyed a good sexist joke and I've always found hypersensitive feminists extremely annoying, it's always seemed a bit of a non-issue to me because I'm not often exposed to guys with openly sexist views. I assumed most guys thought the same

    I think you have shot yourself in the foot with your opening line, OP.

    And no, not all guys think the same.

    Why? Sexist jokes are funny if they are regarded as jokes and not take seriously. I shouldn't have said 'hypersensitive feminists', I certainly don't mean all feminists, I mean the odd few people I have on facebook who clearly aren't about equality and argue among themselves over who has the most radical standpoint.
    Chrisj22 wrote:
    Edit: actually, if he said it whilst chuckling, which is what your post says, then he may actually be joking.

    I know him rather well, he's a nice enough guy but has some pretty 'old fashioned' views about most things, probably out of being naive rather than nasty. I didn't actually feel personally offended and I won't be reporting anyone, I was just wondering if anyone else has come across the same thing and it happens more than I think
  • haydenm wrote:
    Like most people I've always enjoyed a good sexist joke and I've always found hypersensitive feminists extremely annoying

    Bit of a sweeper straight off the bat there
    Road - '10 Giant Defy 3.5
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  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,903
    edited September 2016
    haydenm wrote:
    Like most people I've always enjoyed a good sexist joke and I've always found hypersensitive feminists extremely annoying

    Bit of a sweeper straight off the bat there

    Clarified^

    Edit: Anyway, this post forms part of my feminist awakening, I need a good starting point to feel a larger sense of accomplishment
  • SecteurSecteur Posts: 1,971
    I doubt the OP realises, and education via t'internet fora never works!
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,903
    I'm fully aware... :wink:
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,755
    My daughter whilst not an our and out feminist is certainly one to point out incidents of sexism. Her favourite of late being observations on commentators durinng the Olympic and Paralympic games. Particularly how even some of the female presenters (BBC and C4) would refer to their own sex as "performing so well and they're glamorous too. Or Hasn't she done well since starting a family" etc etc. Yet never would there ever be comment about a male competitor being handsome or marriage has improved his performance.
    Whilst being an old git I've never thought of this but I do think my daughter has a point. In that what relevance does a females looks have to do with their competitiveness. My daughter and I'm sure many others just see it as a 'put down' on their sex and I do agree that perhaps we should have moved on from this.

    Don't get her started on Disney and Star Wars which she views as ultra sexist in their stereotyping of female heroines. Especially the lack of black female leads or older women.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • fat daddyfat daddy Posts: 2,605
    Mr Goo wrote:
    what relevance does a females looks have to do with their competitiveness..


    advertising for sponsors ????

    if you can stick an attractive athlete on TV, if you can get girls to want to look like her, men to fancy her .... then your product sells more.

    Sponsors pay more for athletes that perform AND look good ... the more sponsorship an athlete generates, the better teams they can get into, the better training and trainers they are privileged to and the better the results.

    In a perfect world, sport would be about sport ... unfortunately once you have left the school playground a lot of it becomes about money and more money
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 14,788
    I think "starting a family" (What a strange phrase btw. Why don't people just say "having a baby"?) affects a woman's body a bit more than the father's. So for a mother to come back to the same or better level of performance is noteworthy.
    I seem to remember many sly reference to "Linford's lunchbox" but can't remember any camel toe references for female athletes. :wink:
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 14,788
    fat daddy wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    what relevance does a females looks have to do with their competitiveness..


    advertising for sponsors ????

    if you can stick an attractive athlete on TV, if you can get girls to want to look like her, men to fancy her .... then your product sells more.

    Sponsors pay more for athletes that perform AND look good ... the more sponsorship an athlete generates, the better teams they can get into, the better training and trainers they are privileged to and the better the results.

    In a perfect world, sport would be about sport ... unfortunately once you have left the school playground a lot of it becomes about money and more money

    Kournikova?
  • sort of...yes, depending on how you look at it. Women often choose having a life outside of work. Men often have no choice.

    Companies have more incentives to hire women, the "bar" is set lower.

    Also men tend to say censored all the time, so you might be taking this a bit too seriously (typical white people with their first world problems of being offended)
  • ProssPross Posts: 25,437
    Having previously worked in a small company where about 20% of the staff were female I certainly came across the opinion expressed quite often by colleagues (not management) that they wouldn't employ female staff if they had their own small business as we seemed to regularly have one or more team member off on maternity leave while everyone else was left covering their workload (in a couple of cases they were off for 12 months and then after a couple of months back in work announced they were pregnant again and one of those then resigned before coming back the second time). Whilst this is view is clearly sexist and if put into practice would be illegal I can understand the frustration.

    On the other hand, I think a lot of the so called sexist issues in the workplace that get regular attention are overblown, the main one being the pay gap. Everywhere I have worked there has been parity to an extent between everyone doing the same level of job (I say to an extent as in the private sector it is generally what an individual can negotiate but I've seen no trend towards females getting less). There will sometimes be a slower career progression for women when they take time off as described above as effectively they are taking a couple of 1 year sabbaticals. However, I don't think that's sexism - it's their choice and if their partner took the leave rather than them or any man took a couple of years out of work then I would suggest that their career trajectory would react in a similar way.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 23,446 Lives Here
    ballysmate wrote:
    I think "starting a family" (What a strange phrase btw. Why don't people just say "having a baby"?) affects a woman's body a bit more than the father's. So for a mother to come back to the same or better level of performance is noteworthy.
    I'd agree with that. Pregnancy and childbirth put the woman's body through a hell of a lot and it must be hard to work your way back to peak performance. For a father to lose a bit of sleep isn't quite so dramatic.
    I've heard it mentioned in motorcycle racing when a racer becomes a father that can knock the edge off their performance. If that was said about a woman would it be considered sexist?
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