Vuelta stage 21 *spoiler*

pinno

No tA Doctor wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

Here's... status.

This...rare.

The Vuelta and the Giro take advantage of the fact that teams just aren't as bothered with a stage win or a top 15 GC placing. Unexpected stuff can happen.

That's precisely why I love the Giro and the Vuelta more than the TdF.

You don't need the top GC guys or the top sprinters to make a good race. In fact, it's much better that they aren't there (to a certain extent). I don't watch cycling to ogle at the 'stars' like a celebrity cat walk expecting celebrity style performances - which you rarely get, what you get is dominance by the strongest team. I much prefer the unexpected.
The sprints were no less interesting because of the absence of the Greipel's and the Cav's. The MTF's were no less exciting (in fact they were more exciting) just because the Froome's, the Nibali's and the Quintana's didn't sprout wings and dominate them.

I am biased because on the whole, bunch sprints bore the hell out of me and have little or no effect on the overall. Further, so many breakaways succeeded in the Vuelta (probably because of the route) that it gave the like's of Latour and other wannabe's a win.

Great Vuelta, loved it.

ocdupalais

Pinno wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

Here's... status.

This...rare.

The Vuelta and the Giro take advantage of the fact that teams just aren't as bothered with a stage win or a top 15 GC placing. Unexpected stuff can happen.

That's... loved it.

It's all perspective which governs opinion, innit.

My old man is a jazz/blues pianist (I know, I know...) and he's often mentioned how all the new mainstream jazz fans back in the day would chat about the brilliance of Oscar Peterson. How he would dazzle the audience with his incredible keyboard gymnastics... Yet for a lot of the "real" jazz fans who had been into it for years (and, you know, were slightly dismissive of the new crowd), Oscar Peterson started to leave them cold because he was too good/too perfect- it was show over content - and it was the likes of Thelonious Monk and Art Tatum (much more quirky/challenging) who the true fans were more enamoured with.
To couch things in terms of marketplace lingo, the general consensus round these parts is that Le Tour holds market dominance despite providing an inferior package for the more discerning consumer of professional cycling. Around here, we're all about the racing! Don't matter if we ain't heard of the riders - it's the racing!
Well... Nonsense! If that was the case we'd all be watching juniors and women racing as much as these hairy-arsed geezers... But we're not. And why not? Because we want to see who's the best - the absolute best. Nothing in cycling has been able to challenge the Tour as the defining measurement of that.

pinno

I see:
Django Reinhardt, Satchmo, Bix Beiderbecke: The Giro, The Vuelta
Courtney Pine - TdF ?

Does put the Classics in the realms of Ragtime and Dixieland?

FWIW: I have a different theory but you'd have to PM me as it would be even more off topic.

chrisday

Pinno wrote:

I see:
Django Reinhardt, Satchmo, Bix Beiderbecke: The Giro, The Vuelta
Courtney Pine - TdF ?

Does put the Classics in the realms of Ragtime and Dixieland?

(Loving this analogy)

I see the Cobbled Classics as big, loud Swing with Buddy Rich going mental.

DeVlaeminck

OCDuPalais wrote:

Pinno wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

Here's... status.

This...rare.

The Vuelta and the Giro take advantage of the fact that teams just aren't as bothered with a stage win or a top 15 GC placing. Unexpected stuff can happen.

That's... loved it.

It's all perspective which governs opinion, innit.

My old man is a jazz/blues pianist (I know, I know...) and he's often mentioned how all the new mainstream jazz fans back in the day would chat about the brilliance of Oscar Peterson. How he would dazzle the audience with his incredible keyboard gymnastics... Yet for a lot of the "real" jazz fans who had been into it for years (and, you know, were slightly dismissive of the new crowd), Oscar Peterson started to leave them cold because he was too good/too perfect- it was show over content - and it was the likes of Thelonious Monk and Art Tatum (much more quirky/challenging) who the true fans were more enamoured with.
To couch things in terms of marketplace lingo, the general consensus round these parts is that Le Tour holds market dominance despite providing an inferior package for the more discerning consumer of professional cycling. Around here, we're all about the racing! Don't matter if we ain't heard of the riders - it's the racing!
Well... Nonsense! If that was the case we'd all be watching juniors and women racing as much as these hairy-arsed geezers... But we're not. And why not? Because we want to see who's the best - the absolute best. Nothing in cycling has been able to challenge the Tour as the defining measurement of that.

Yeah true it's not all about the racing but it's not all about the best either and I'd rather watch an exciting chipper than a TdF time trial. I tend to rate the Giro as close to the Tour anyway in sporting terms, I know it doesn't carry half the financial clout but in sporting terms it's a huge race and Im not convinced Groomed would find it much easier to win than the Tour.

DeVlaeminck

Groomed is my phone's name for Froome

phreak

I reckon Froome would struggle with the weather at the Giro. Being quite so thin can't be good when it's cold and wet.

Richmond Racer 2

phreak wrote:

I reckon Froome would struggle with the weather at the Giro. Being quite so thin can't be good when it's cold and wet.

Some riders need the sun on their backs. Some love the crap weather (Nibs, Stan etc)

TheBigBean

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

. Some love the crap weather (Nibs, Stan etc)

Kelly has a quote about that. Something along the lines of not liking bad weather, but not disliking it as much as others.

Richmond Racer 2

TheBigBean wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

. Some love the crap weather (Nibs, Stan etc)

Kelly has a quote about that. Something along the lines of not liking bad weather, but not disliking it as much as others.

A Master of bad weather, too

rick_chasey

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

phreak wrote:

I reckon Froome would struggle with the weather at the Giro. Being quite so thin can't be good when it's cold and wet.

Some riders need the sun on their backs. Some love the crap weather (Nibs, Stan etc)

Who's stan?

Richmond Racer 2

Stan Kubrick

ocdupalais

chrisday wrote:

Pinno wrote:

I see:
Django Reinhardt, Satchmo, Bix Beiderbecke: The Giro, The Vuelta
Courtney Pine - TdF ?

Does put the Classics in the realms of Ragtime and Dixieland?

(Loving this analogy)

I see the Cobbled Classics as big, loud Swing with Buddy Rich going mental.

Actually, the GTs are going to be more like big composed pieces - jazz or classical - where the composers (ASO, RCS) have done what they think is the best they can with an arrangement and its up to the band/orchestra (teams/riders) not to f*ck it up.
A good GT will be more Duke Ellington/Debussy - a poorer one, more Richard Clayderman.
Sometimes though, the composition just plain doesn't work as hoped; and over 3 weeks, it's impossible not to hit a few bum notes.
Most of the fans in the general public are too busy thumping the hoardings to notice, though.
For the cooler cats with more sophisticated tastes who like to think that they're paying more attention (or snobbish ponces, as they riff-raff would have 'em), pretty soon the aggregation of bum notes (or "uneventful bits" or "disappointing performances") gets too much... But, as ever, the biggest turn off for the "discerning fan" is when their favourite becomes the popular choice.
All the while, the rabble keep thumping the hoarding...

ocdupalais

I think the cobbled and Ardennes classics are more blues and soul - perhaps less subtlety involved than jazz/classical - but a craving for raw authenticity...

Garry H

OCDuPalais wrote:

I think the cobbled and Ardennes classics are more blues and soul - perhaps less subtlety involved than jazz/classical - but a craving for raw authenticity...

A bit of Miles perhaps...

Richmond Racer 2

Garry H wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

I think the cobbled and Ardennes classics are more blues and soul - perhaps less subtlety involved than jazz/classical - but a craving for raw authenticity...

A bit of Miles perhaps...

Kilometres, shirley?

pinno

OCDuPalais wrote:

chrisday wrote:

Pinno wrote:

I see:
Django Reinhardt, Satchmo, Bix Beiderbecke: The Giro, The Vuelta
Courtney Pine - TdF ?

Does put the Classics in the realms of Ragtime and Dixieland?

(Loving this analogy)

I see the Cobbled Classics as big, loud Swing with Buddy Rich going mental.

A good GT will be more Duke Ellington/Debussy - a poorer one, more Richard Clayderman.

Excellent.

So what you are saying is that when it all comes together, it's harmonic counterpoint as opposed to dis-harmonic counterpoint?
Is there any room for some Janice Joplin or a good old fashioned 'Stride' battle?

ocdupalais

Janice Joplin and stride? You mean her uncle Scott, Shirley?

If Janice Joplin and ODB from Wu Tang Clan had done a duet - that would've been a Peter Sagan victory and podium celebration from 5 years ago... Now he's settled down and embracing the quirk etc, it would probably be more like a Peter Gabriel and Fish from Marillion collaboration - but with a searing Richard Thompson solo. With Eric Cantona playing lead role in the video...
Something like that.

RichN95.

I know nothing of jazz, but I personally see parallels between the Grand Tours and stand-up comedy.

The Tour is a bit like Live at the Apollo on BBC. It's big names doing their best material. It's tight and well honed through many performances. Not a word is out of place. Because this is where the general public see them. It's the calling card to the world. In essence - business.

Now go and see the same acts in their own show and while there's a general structure to the show with written routines, there's also improvisation and interaction with the audience. It's looser and more unpredictable. Well that's the Vuelta.

The Giro is the up and comers and more avant garde acts at the Edinburgh festival.

pinno

OCDuPalais wrote:

Janice Joplin and stride? You mean her uncle Scott, Shirley?

Shirely I do and please stop calling me Shirley. I'll escape quick but could go quicker if someone had bought me a Mercedes Benz.

No_Ta_Doctor

OK. I'm with OCDuPalais on this.

The cobbled classics are Canonball Adderley. Hard, fast, dirty, and bluesy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_YW_xhyCUw

joelsim

phreak wrote:

I reckon Froome would struggle with the weather at the Giro. Being quite so thin can't be good when it's cold and wet.

They're all thin.

As Froome is from the Death Star, perhaps he could wrap himself in foil to insulate himself against the cold.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... OUqUmL.jpg

pinno

Joelsim wrote:

phreak wrote:

I reckon Froome would struggle with the weather at the Giro. Being quite so thin can't be good when it's cold and wet.

They're all thin.

As Froome is from the Death Star, perhaps he could wrap himself in foil to insulate himself against the cold.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... OUqUmL.jpg

I dunno but he looks like he would use a lot of WD40.

We used to put a cut up Marigold glove on the distributor of Mini's - unreliable in really cold weather. Perhaps Froome could wear one on his head.