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Vuelta stage 21 *spoiler*

TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,631
edited September 2016 in Pro race
Magnus Cort Nielson wins after Bennati goes too early. Meersman 3rd.

No action in GC other than a mechanical for Contador, but he got back on.

Valverde didn't get the three points required to go back in green.
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  • Hmmmm....

    Surely a spoiler thread starter should put a profile pic in? ;-)
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

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  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,618
    Under-the-radar top 10 for George Bennett. First top 10 for a Kiwi in a GT?
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Well done to Teeny but those widescreen red shades sported by Movistar are a disgrace
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  • JSCLJSCL Posts: 1,259
    Well done to Teeny but those widescreen red shades sported by Movistar are a disgrace

    You think?

    Strange. I was actually googling for them during the stage to see where I could buy a set :(
    Follow me on Twitter - http://twitter.com/scalesjason - All posts are strictly my personal view.
  • Well done to Teeny but those widescreen red shades sported by Movistar are a disgrace

    Missed the stage so had to look them up. Not for me, but I'm not a big fan of jersey matching gear in recent years anyway.

    202208_616918653.jpg
  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,618
    Fair play to Valverde, too.
    Giro: 3rd
    Tour: 6th
    Vuelta: 12th

    I know he's not everyone's favourite, but that's an immense effort. Add that to Castile e Leon, Fleche Wallone and placings in other races then that's a hell of a season. And he'll probably still be giving it some in the autumn.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,631
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    Fair play to Valverde, too.
    Giro: 3rd
    Tour: 6th
    Vuelta: 12th

    I know he's not everyone's favourite, but that's an immense effort. Add that to Castile e Leon, Fleche Wallone and placings in other races then that's a hell of a season. And he'll probably still be giving it some in the autumn.

    I'm surprised he didn't finish higher than 48th on the stage given that he only needed 3 points for green.
  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,183
    The Vuelta a Espana 2016 consisted of 20 race stages:-
    6 (official) mountain stages
    10 MTFs
    1 TTT
    1 ITT

    Considering the route favoured Quintana hugely, I wasn't that impressed with his performance. If he didn't have an enormous slice of luck with Brambilla and Contador launching the attack on stage 15 and Froome/Sky being half asleep, I doubt if he would have won.

    I can't see him winning a TdF any time soon, not if Froome is around and rubber side down. There are plenty of other young riders coming through who could give him a hard time as well if their teams decide they are prepared to mount a serious GC challenge.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,150
    GO Nairo!

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    210123_616709296.jpg

    But love Chaves
    205321_616728582.jpg
  • Hmmm, I think he has a valid claim to be clearly the second best stage racer around at this moment and possibly the best climber though Froome may dispute the latter. Whether this Vuelta was a good performance depends on the standard you are judging him against I suppose - you've been questioning his ability all Summer so I'd have thought him beating Froome would be a good performance given you don't think he's very good ! I do agree though he hasn't shown that he should be the favourite over Froome for the Tour.
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  • ProssPross Posts: 27,106
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    Fair play to Valverde, too.
    Giro: 3rd
    Tour: 6th
    Vuelta: 12th

    I know he's not everyone's favourite, but that's an immense effort. Add that to Castile e Leon, Fleche Wallone and placings in other races then that's a hell of a season. And he'll probably still be giving it some in the autumn.

    Have to agree. He also rode hard for Quintana in this race whilst people have (rightly) criticised him for failing to do in the past. He's gone up a lot in my opinion this season.
  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,183
    Hmmm, I think he has a valid claim to be clearly the second best stage racer around at this moment and possibly the best climber though Froome may dispute the latter. Whether this Vuelta was a good performance depends on the standard you are judging him against I suppose - you've been questioning his ability all Summer so I'd have thought him beating Froome would be a good performance given you don't think he's very good ! I do agree though he hasn't shown that he should be the favourite over Froome for the Tour.

    Three stage wins for Froome in this Vuelta (including the TTT) and only one for Quintana shows he's not exactly a class act. I'm not even sure I agree on the second best stage racer if you count Nibali. Lucky to win the Giro in 2014 and lucky to win this one too I'd say.

    He was obviously under par in the TdF so Bardet beat him but Adam Yates wasn't far behind and Richie Porte would have been closer given a bit more luck (and less TVG). Given another year I'm sure some of the younger pros will be a lot closer to him so he will have his work cut out finishing on the podium in future I would say.
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 5,150
    hypster wrote:
    Hmmm, I think he has a valid claim to be clearly the second best stage racer around at this moment and possibly the best climber though Froome may dispute the latter. Whether this Vuelta was a good performance depends on the standard you are judging him against I suppose - you've been questioning his ability all Summer so I'd have thought him beating Froome would be a good performance given you don't think he's very good ! I do agree though he hasn't shown that he should be the favourite over Froome for the Tour.

    Three stage wins for Froome in this Vuelta (including the TTT) and only one for Quintana shows he's not exactly a class act. I'm not even sure I agree on the second best stage racer if you count Nibali. Lucky to win the Giro in 2014 and lucky to win this one too I'd say.

    He was obviously under par in the TdF so Bardet beat him but Adam Yates wasn't far behind and Richie Porte would have been closer given a bit more luck (and less TVG). Given another year I'm sure some of the younger pros will be a lot closer to him so he will have his work cut out finishing on the podium in future I would say.

    If we're talking about luck then discount the BMC riders now...

    Quintana's a class act... he climbed well in the mountains and when it mattered he delivered the winning blow. He was playing his part in that break and he basically soloed to his victory.
  • hypster wrote:
    Three stage wins for Froome in this Vuelta (including the TTT) and only one for Quintana shows he's not exactly a class act. I'm not even sure I agree on the second best stage racer if you count Nibali. Lucky to win the Giro in 2014 and lucky to win this one too I'd say.

    He was obviously under par in the TdF so Bardet beat him but Adam Yates wasn't far behind and Richie Porte would have been closer given a bit more luck (and less TVG). Given another year I'm sure some of the younger pros will be a lot closer to him so he will have his work cut out finishing on the podium in future I would say.


    Stage wins are irrelevant if you are going for GC so that shows nothing. I can't think of any other rider who has outclimbed Froome over the course of a grand tour - that is what makes Quintana the main threat to Froome above Nibali and anyone else.
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  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,183
    Nairo Quintana weighs 58kg to Chris Froome's 71kg, he should be a bloody good climber! My contention though he just isn't. He is consistently beaten by other climbers and he can't time trial for toffee so he is not the complete stage racer by any stretch of the imagination. He relies on a heavily loaded mountain parcours to do well including the several mental 20% climbs we have seen in this Vuelta.

    As far as stage wins are concerned it shows a certain class that all the great riders have had and Quintana just doesn't. He just wheel sucks in the extreme and then pops out to take a few seconds here or there and hopes that will be enough. Stage 15 showed that admirably where he just sat on the wheels until the last climb and then was forced to lead out because he had the most the gain and the rest of the breakaway were sick of him having free ride and doing censored all. Contador won the Vuelta not Quintana.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,631
    Contador is / was quite a good rider. He hasn't won that many stages.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,917
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Contador is / was quite a good rider. He hasn't won that many stages.
    In fact Froome has won more GT stages in the last three months than Contador has since his ban.

    (Also Froome has won more stages in World Tour races this year than Sagan, which surprised me)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • joe2008joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    hypster wrote:
    Nairo Quintana weighs 58kg to Chris Froome's 71kg, he should be a bloody good climber! My contention though he just isn't. He is consistently beaten by other climbers and he can't time trial for toffee so he is not the complete stage racer by any stretch of the imagination. He relies on a heavily loaded mountain parcours to do well including the several mental 20% climbs we have seen in this Vuelta.

    As far as stage wins are concerned it shows a certain class that all the great riders have had and Quintana just doesn't. He just wheel sucks in the extreme and then pops out to take a few seconds here or there and hopes that will be enough. Stage 15 showed that admirably where he just sat on the wheels until the last climb and then was forced to lead out because he had the most the gain and the rest of the breakaway were sick of him having free ride and doing censored all. Contador won the Vuelta not Quintana.

    B**locks... my missus weighs 58kg and she can't climb for toffee.
  • JSCLJSCL Posts: 1,259
    joe2008 wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    Nairo Quintana weighs 58kg to Chris Froome's 71kg, he should be a bloody good climber! My contention though he just isn't. He is consistently beaten by other climbers and he can't time trial for toffee so he is not the complete stage racer by any stretch of the imagination. He relies on a heavily loaded mountain parcours to do well including the several mental 20% climbs we have seen in this Vuelta.

    As far as stage wins are concerned it shows a certain class that all the great riders have had and Quintana just doesn't. He just wheel sucks in the extreme and then pops out to take a few seconds here or there and hopes that will be enough. Stage 15 showed that admirably where he just sat on the wheels until the last climb and then was forced to lead out because he had the most the gain and the rest of the breakaway were sick of him having free ride and doing censored all. Contador won the Vuelta not Quintana.

    B**locks... my missus weighs 58kg and she can't climb for toffee.

    Yeah. My legs weigh 58kg and they can't climb for toffee either!

    But in all seriousness, just because you're light, doesn't mean you're the monster climber. You need to have the right VO2 Max and if Quintana wasn't peaked properly, he wouldn't be able to climb well.

    It's not all about the weight and we all know that.
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  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,183
    JSCL wrote:
    It's not all about the weight and we all know that.

    As far as pro cycling is concerned that is just patently nonsense otherwise why does Froome look like a stick insect with anorexia? Basically Quintana is supposed to be this classic climber but he just doesn't show it.

    Pantani may be a bad comparison because he was drugged up to the eyeballs (but then again so were most he was competing with) and he managed to show panache that Quintana could only dream about.
  • JSCLJSCL Posts: 1,259
    hypster wrote:
    JSCL wrote:
    It's not all about the weight and we all know that.

    As far as pro cycling is concerned that is just patently nonsense otherwise why does Froome look like a stick insect with anorexia? Basically Quintana is supposed to be this classic climber but he just doesn't show it.

    Pantani may be a bad comparison because he was drugged up to the eyeballs (but then again so were most he was competing with) and he managed to show panache that Quintana could only dream about.

    You need to read. It's not ALL about the weight.

    Froome could be 5kg lighter if he wanted, but he wouldn't have the power he needs. It's a science.

    Just because someone is lightweight, doesn't mean they can climb. Cav weighs roughly 70kg.. whatchya gonna say about that?

    I don't think Movistar have their figures game where it should be. A rider like Chris rides as well as he does because of the people around him (not just on the saddle). If he were a lone cannon in his current condition, it'd be slightly different.
    Follow me on Twitter - http://twitter.com/scalesjason - All posts are strictly my personal view.
  • ProssPross Posts: 27,106
    Someone seems to have added 5kg to Froome's official weight too. Maybe it's compensation for when he was having a kg deducted every day by a well known poster last season.
  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,183
    edited September 2016
    JSCL wrote:
    You need to read. It's not ALL about the weight.

    Froome could be 5kg lighter if he wanted, but he wouldn't have the power he needs. It's a science.

    Just because someone is lightweight, doesn't mean they can climb. Cav weighs roughly 70kg.. whatchya gonna say about that?

    I don't think Movistar have their figures game where it should be. A rider like Chris rides as well as he does because of the people around him (not just on the saddle). If he were a lone cannon in his current condition, it'd be slightly different.

    OK, now I understand. Quintana just needs to beef up 12kg and he will be outsprinting Cav and outclimbing Froome. With all that power he should probably be faster in the time trials as well. I imagine once he gets up to speed he'll just roll along with all that extra inertia.

    Chaves and Atapuma are wildly underweight as well. Somebody needs to get on to their respective DSes and feed them up in the off-season.

    Obviously this is all nonsense because I do realise it's not just about weight but my whole point is that at 58kg Quintana should be a devastating climber but he just doesn't show it.
  • JSCL wrote:
    .............................
    Just because someone is lightweight, doesn't mean they can climb. Cav weighs roughly 70kg.. whatchya gonna say about that?

    I don't think Movistar have their figures game where it should be. A rider like Chris rides as well as he does because of the people around him (not just on the saddle). If he were a lone cannon in his current condition, it'd be slightly different.


    Can you explain what you mean by all that ?
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  • I think using phrases like "Quintana is not a devastating climber" and that "Contador won the Vuelta" are disingenuous.

    Quintana was paying attention at the right time to respond to the attacks of his rivals, Froome wasn't. This is as much a part of being a stage racer as being a good time triallist.

    Also, the argument that Porte would have beaten Quintana in the Tour "with better luck" seems slightly flawed to me. It's no coincidence that Porte seems to suffer from "bad luck" in each GT he competes in (some call it bad luck, I say bad positioning/bike handling)

    It's also easy to rewrite history after the fact. Quintana knew he needed time on Froome before the time trial. Once he had that his tactics changed to marking him. If he was only 1'30" ahead going into the final week no doubt you would have seen him racing differently.

    Similarly, Richie would have been marked closer than he was in the Tour if he was closer to Froome.
  • Equally, you could say that Contador was lucky that Quintana got in that break. Otherwise it might not have been able to stay away without Movistar pushing as well.
  • Bo DukeBo Duke Posts: 1,058
    Quintana is a good race rider however nowhere near the top riders of all time whereas Froome, Berti and possibly Nibbles are up there. Quintana is kinda similar to Cadel Evans, a work horse but not a stand out winner.
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • ProssPross Posts: 27,106
    I'm really struggling with suggestion by several people in this thread that Nibali is a better GT rider than Quintana. Nairo may not be the exciting type of climber we traditionally associate with Colombia (which is probably why he actually wins GTs) but to me he is not far off Contador at his best and well ahead of Nibali and the others. It''s really only Froome who stands out in comparison (and that is really only at the Tour).
  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,618
    edited September 2016
    Pross wrote:
    I'm really struggling with suggestion by several people in this thread that Nibali is a better GT rider than Quintana. Nairo may not be the exciting type of climber we traditionally associate with Colombia (which is probably why he actually wins GTs) but to me he is not far off Contador at his best and well ahead of Nibali and the others. It''s really only Froome who stands out in comparison (and that is really only at the Tour).

    Agree with all that. I think you've got Froome, then a little gap, then Quintana, then Nibali, then Contador/Chaves/Aru.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,618
    Dup post
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
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