New Groupset purchase - 105 or Ultegra

mrb123

optrexeyedrops wrote:

MrB123 wrote:

optrexeyedrops wrote:

beak58 wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

Back to the original question, IMHO Ultegra looks better and is maybe a bit slicker in operation but not by much. Is it worth the extra money? Common sense says probably not but when did common sense ever come into it? My view would be buy Ultegra as you will probably wish you had if you don't. One thing you might wish to note is that Ultegra 6800 brakes do not have as much room under them as the 105 5800 version - I can use 'proper' mudguards on my Allez with 105 brakes but not with the Ultegras. At the end of the day, it probably depends upon how much that £150 means to you.

Thank you, I have gone and ordered the 105 now as Wiggle has it on at £285 which I think is pretty good value. I am still at the stage where I am relaying the actual price of things to the wife rather than understating things by 50-95% (this may change if and when I buy a power meter....;))

To be honest I have found Tiagra to absolutely be fine as I am now pretty good with adjustments, maintenance, cleaning etc. (thanks Youtube). Some of the stuff is just on the way out so I figured I may as well move up to the 105/ultegra level if I was upgrading to a whole matching groupset, (at 92kg I have no need, nor indeed perception, of the piddling weight savings of Dura-ace yet)

Thanks again for all input it really helps.

A few points:

1. NEVER tell the Mrs what anything costs for cycling kit. This is like Fight Club mate, you never talk about it. The most you can say is 'It was £xxx...reduced to £xxx in the sales' and thats it. She's happy. You're happy. She would never tell you the full price of a pair of shoes and this is our equivalent. If by some unfortunate event she finds out the price, you immediately hit her with "yes, but its a one off and I'm really into it to keep me healthy for you and a kids....'. if you don't have kids, say its all for her so you can grow old together. But remember. Never talk about Fight Club.

2. There are only two times you ever need to worry about weight. 1-your bodyweight. 2 rotational mass weight i.e.: wheels. The first you can reduce with diet and more cycling. The second you can spend money on and its one of the only areas where you will actually notice the difference on a ride with a lighter pair of wheels than a heavy set. You can save a few grams here and there on stems, bars..but you won't really notice the difference as you will with lighter wheels, tyres, hubs, cassettes or inner tubes. Theres no point worrying about a few grams on the bike and spending thousands trying to reduce it when you know you can lose half a stone and make a much bigger difference. Or if you've gone out on a sunday morning after a night on the curry and its still sitting in your stomach.

Completely agree with point 1.

As for point two, you're a better man than I if you think you could notice the difference of having a lighter cassette! Isn't the whole rotational weight thing an urban myth?

It would take more than just a cassette, granted, but the point i make about rotational mass is a valid one. If you're going to try and lose weight off a bike to make a noticeable difference, then its widely accepted that if you spend money anywhere, it should be on rotational mass i.e.: wheels etc as i pointed out. Realistically, you would upgrade all of those things at the same time to really notice a difference or maybe just the wheels. But a cassette on its own, probably not. You might save a few watts because it runs a bit smoother over the course of a ride but thats a different story.

Reducing bodyweight is by far the best thing you can do, weight wise.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/06/ ... ter_223209

mpatts

So, here is my reply, as it goes.

On my winter bike and my CX bike I run Shimano - ultegra and 105 respectively. Blindfolded you can tell the difference in quality in the levers (ultegra feels a bit nicer), howver the oerall performance is identical though. I'd struggle to justify paying 5p more for Ultegra, other than to feel better about it (which is more important than you think....). That said the '105' plastic bit did fall off one lever one race in, but suspect it was a fitting rather than quality issue.

I also have run SRAM in the past, and do so on the mrs bike, and I think it's excellent - but the double tap isn't for everyone.

However, if I were to choose on anything other than a CX bike I'd go for Campag every time. I have Veloce, Chorus, Record and Super Record and I chorus is all you ever need. The levers and hoods are just lovely - the change action is amazing, and for me it looks fantastic.

mpatts

MrB123 wrote:

Isn't the whole rotational weight thing an urban myth?

i think it's pretty well proven. A lot of this stuff is psychological, but I can accelerate quite a bit quicker using my Boras than my Khamsin training wheels. Approx 0.0000000000000001mph per £.

beak58

optrexeyedrops wrote:

beak58 wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

Back to the original question, IMHO Ultegra looks better and is maybe a bit slicker in operation but not by much. Is it worth the extra money? Common sense says probably not but when did common sense ever come into it? My view would be buy Ultegra as you will probably wish you had if you don't. One thing you might wish to note is that Ultegra 6800 brakes do not have as much room under them as the 105 5800 version - I can use 'proper' mudguards on my Allez with 105 brakes but not with the Ultegras. At the end of the day, it probably depends upon how much that £150 means to you.

Thank you, I have gone and ordered the 105 now as Wiggle has it on at £285 which I think is pretty good value. I am still at the stage where I am relaying the actual price of things to the wife rather than understating things by 50-95% (this may change if and when I buy a power meter....;))

To be honest I have found Tiagra to absolutely be fine as I am now pretty good with adjustments, maintenance, cleaning etc. (thanks Youtube). Some of the stuff is just on the way out so I figured I may as well move up to the 105/ultegra level if I was upgrading to a whole matching groupset, (at 92kg I have no need, nor indeed perception, of the piddling weight savings of Dura-ace yet)

Thanks again for all input it really helps.

A few points:

1. NEVER tell the Mrs what anything costs for cycling kit. This is like Fight Club mate, you never talk about it. The most you can say is 'It was £xxx...reduced to £xxx in the sales' and thats it. She's happy. You're happy. She would never tell you the full price of a pair of shoes and this is our equivalent. If by some unfortunate event she finds out the price, you immediately hit her with "yes, but its a one off and I'm really into it to keep me healthy for you and a kids....'. if you don't have kids, say its all for her so you can grow old together. But remember. Never talk about Fight Club.

2. There are only two times you ever need to worry about weight. 1-your bodyweight. 2 rotational mass weight i.e.: wheels. The first you can reduce with diet and more cycling. The second you can spend money on and its one of the only areas where you will actually notice the difference on a ride with a lighter pair of wheels than a heavy set. You can save a few grams here and there on stems, bars..but you won't really notice the difference as you will with lighter wheels, tyres, hubs, cassettes or inner tubes. Theres no point worrying about a few grams on the bike and spending thousands trying to reduce it when you know you can lose half a stone and make a much bigger difference. Or if you've gone out on a sunday morning after a night on the curry and its still sitting in your stomach.

Point 1 reminds me of a post I saw the other day -

"my wife thinks I spent £200 on a power meter.... "

Regarding point 2 I've done a bit of both lately, I upgraded to RS81 C24 wheels from the stock Trek 1.5 ones the same week I started commuting to work, so have been on better quality wheels and also been getting a minimum of 150 miles a week in, including weekend jaunts. All of which has seen my times for my 12 mile commute go from 55-58 minutes down to no more than 43 minutes and occasionally 39.xx depending on wind/sleep/hangover in the space of 15 weeks, I'm very happy so far and have at least another 22 kilos to go until i'm at my fighting weight (currently 6'1, 92kg and want to be a respectable climber)

beak58

mpatts wrote:

So, here is my reply, as it goes.

On my winter bike and my CX bike I run Shimano - ultegra and 105 respectively. Blindfolded you can tell the difference in quality in the levers (ultegra feels a bit nicer), howver the oerall performance is identical though. I'd struggle to justify paying 5p more for Ultegra, other than to feel better about it (which is more important than you think....). That said the '105' plastic bit did fall off one lever one race in, but suspect it was a fitting rather than quality issue.

I also have run SRAM in the past, and do so on the mrs bike, and I think it's excellent - but the double tap isn't for everyone.

However, if I were to choose on anything other than a CX bike I'd go for Campag every time. I have Veloce, Chorus, Record and Super Record and I chorus is all you ever need. The levers and hoods are just lovely - the change action is amazing, and for me it looks fantastic.

Thanks.
I hope to get some SRAM and Campag in my life over the next few years so I can form my own opinion, I think people including me can land up with Shimano due to the dominance and then just stick with it. I for instance have no basis whatsoever to compare Force/Ultegra/Chorus as I've never used any but in the pub I'll probably give some secondhand opinion that Ive read on a website. Although I will say that Campag looks by far the best of the three IMO.

ayjaycee

mpatts wrote:

and I chorus is all you ever need. The levers and hoods are just lovely - the change action is amazing, and for me it looks fantastic.

Having ridden a bike with Chorus, I agree that it's good as, indeed, it should be at nearly twice the cost of Ultegra!

beak58

Hello again folks I thought I'd better update since you were so kind to make the effort to give such good advice.

I installed my 105 (50-34, 11-28) group on Tuesday after having to wait for the LBS to remove my previous square taper BB as my cheapo BB tool had mangled it.
I'm well impressed obviously, coming from a mix of fsa, tiagra and unbranded.
In particular I would advise anyone still squeezing away on generic brakes to get some 105/similar as the difference is amazing. Feels like electronic braking for the amount of power you have to put in to slow/stop.

Shifting is also fantastic after taking time to get derailleurs just right. I actually need to get used to silent shifting now as I keep thinking I haven't hit the lever properly as it is so quiet compared to my clunky tiagra (which I still thought was good).

Overall thoroughly recommended as at 285 quid over the length of time you'll have it it works out at pennies a week for pure cycling pleasure!

Now to save up for summer 2017 and N+1 to kick in...

Tiesetrotter

ayjaycee wrote:

mpatts wrote:

and I chorus is all you ever need. The levers and hoods are just lovely - the change action is amazing, and for me it looks fantastic.

Having ridden a bike with Chorus, I agree that it's good as, indeed, it should be at nearly twice the cost of Ultegra!

Not tried the new Potenza which is apparently the Ultegra equivalent. But I did have Centaur on a bike whose life has just ended. As I am going disc for my winter/commuter I have been test riding Shimano Ultegra/105. There seems no difference in performance. What I will say is that both feel badly designed compared to the Campagnolo.

My comparison would be that the gear change is no different, except the sound between Campag and Shimano. But the hoods and gear change mechanism is crap compared to Campagnolo and is way too bulky. By the time I have swung those flappy gear levers over on Shimano to engage the gear change I'd have changed three gears on Campag. Also I can use my little finger on the button and change three gears before my hand even got near the Shimano plastic lumps I tried the mechanical levers just to see if it was the hydraulic system. Whilst there is a little improvement it still feels cheap, chunky and badly designed for changing up and down at pace. Trying to find SRAM system to compare that.

However when you look at after market/repair/replacement then at the higher group sets Campagnolo are stupidly expensive and their snobbish attitude means there is no disc's. I have a bike that came with Super Record which is an absolute nightmare in cost terms (but amazing to use).......... but it is the same as Chorus just made with incredibly more expensive bits which have no effect on performance and a micro level of difference in weight. Shimano have taken a much more practical approach to the materials.

It mattered back in the 80's and 90's and so Campagnolo was king with all of us back then .......... now the difference is so marginal as to be irrelevant, however the price difference is not irrelevant at all.

Swings and roundabouts. But Shimano has it right on the number of group-set levels, pricing, parts and materials. But I'd definitely say Campagnolo still have it on design, especially now they have made the button easier to use on the drops. So if I bought a top end bling bike, it'd have Chorus. However on a cheaper bike, the pricing just makes buying Campag no sense at all .............. although those crappy hoods might just make me change my mind!

mamil314

optrexeyedrops wrote:

bsharp77 wrote:

Comfort wise I think the only option you have other than bar tape is the tyres.

Don't know if you're running 23 or 25, but 25 at around 90psi would be close to the sweet spot for comfort in my experience (pressure may differ depending on weight etc.).
Tyre choice is also important - I will only use conti GP4000 now after going through a raft of different makes and models.

Ive had every tyre known to man and they all have their pros and cons but the one I've finally settled on is the Specialized Turbo S-Works in 26". Its not actually a 26, measures more like a 25. But it rolls like a Schwalbe with the puncture protection of the better Contis. Not had a single puncture in 1000 miles and still going strong.

http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Specia ... -2016/7ML1

You'd better have salt nearby when taking advice from folks who can't tell mm from ''. The tyre width will, also, depend on the rim.

MisterMuncher

I run full Ultegra on the best bike, Ultegra shifters and brakes/105 derailleurs on No 2/Race bike and 105/650 long-drop brakes on the beater. There's not a huge difference, but it is there. All things being equal, the mix is the best option, but I'd definitely take Ultegra brakes.

Vs. Campagnolo and SRAM is a matter of aesthetics and ergonomics.