New Groupset purchase - 105 or Ultegra

beak58

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time poster

I have been riding about three years on and off, mostly off, but am now getting more seriously into it. My current bike is still the 2013 Trek 1.5 with the Tiagra/FSA/generic component mix. My only upgrades so far have been spd pedals, lizard skin bar tape and some RS81 C24 wheels which I am very happy with.

I am looking to upgrade my groupset, mainly due to current stuff starting to wear and needing adjustment more regularly, and also for improved shifting, braking and general riding pleasure. I appreciate that any speed increases will come from "upgrading" my own engine through training, which is ticking along nicely....

I commute four days a week, 12 miles one way over rolling terrain on shocking british tarmac and want to keep to one bike if possible for weekend 60mile+ rides.

Eventually I want a "sunday best" bike, BMC SLR01 or similar being the plan in a couple of years or so, but for now I am eyeing up either a full 105 or Ultegra group upgrade to give myself a solid all-rounder in the Trek.

Has anyone got experience of running both 105 and Ultegra and can comment on whether the Ultegra is worth the extra £150ish?

Thanks in advance for any input,
Beak

jimwalsh

functionally the same

ultegra is lighter marginally.

more bling factor.

only worth getting if you feel you need to.

mrb123

I've got both. Ultegra on the summer bike and 105 on the winter bike.

The performance from both is pretty similar. I would say the Ultegra is slightly slicker but that could just be because I've got it set up better on that bike. Obviously Ultegra is a bit lighter if that's important to you.

Cost of replacement parts is obviously a factor to take into account.

For a bike to be used in all weathers and for commuting, I would say 105 is perfectly adequate. For a "best" bike, I'd probably say Ultegra is worth the small premium. There are some great deals around at the moment if you shop around.

bsharp77

Hi Beak,

Ive ran tiagra, 105, ultegra and dura ace (and SRAM Force and Red) and after installing 105 11 speed on my current bike, I am amazed at just how good it is. Over 10,000km so far and not as much as a missed shift. If you blindfolded me I don't think I could tell the difference between it or ultegra. There may be a slight weight penalty in comparison to ultegra, but its minuscule in the overall scheme of things.

For the price (I paid around £285 on offer), theres just no comparison - the best proof being, if I was building another bike tomorrow, id be choosing 105 in a heartbeat (unless someone offered me etap at a crazy price!)

daniel_b

I have Ultegra 6800 on my best bike, and 105 5800 on another bike.

The Ultegra, to my eye is slightly better looking, and has carbon levers (or at least mine does, which I like!) but the 105 does the job 99% as well I would suggest, just a minor weight penalty.

I think 105 has always been the perfect point for price meets reliability, and I don't think anything has changed.

So for my money, and for mostly commuting duties, I would save your cash and pick up a 5800 groupset.

Haven't checked recently, can they still be picks up for silly money of sub £300?
It might be worth your while taking out BC membership if you do not have it already, as that would give you 10% discount at CRC, they are quite often very competitive for groupset prices anyway.

Thanks

Dan

Anonymous

Ultegra is a horrible colour. I ride 105 on summer and winter bikes. Both perform faultlessly.

I generally run ultegra cassettes as I prefer the ratios.

furiousd

I went through this in October last year when building a new bike. In the end i went 6800, mainly because i knew i would upgrade to it at some stage so just do it in the beginning. I had 6700 on another bike and the 6800 is much better, having said that the difference between 5800 and 6800 is much smaller these days, for the price you can get 5800 it is a bargain.

beak58

Thanks for the comprehensive replies everyone, much appreciated.

105 it is then!

Now, as we all know in the cycling world, the ~£150 difference won't simply be "saved", but spent on something else cycling related...and given that my frame is at the lower end relatively speaking, and that the roads around Lancashire are pretty awful, I was thinking some upgrades to my contact-point-bits may help smooth my ride out? The lizardskin tape has really helped, I don't even need gloves now. Would I also see a discernible difference in ride comfort from say upgrading seatpost, stem etc., handlebars even, from the stock ones still on the bike, given that the SLR01 is still a couple of years of paydays away.....?

Anonymous

My personal experience is that Carbon seatpost makes a small difference.

Get wider tyres and run at a lower pressure

bsharp77

Comfort wise I think the only option you have other than bar tape is the tyres.

Don't know if you're running 23 or 25, but 25 at around 90psi would be close to the sweet spot for comfort in my experience (pressure may differ depending on weight etc.).
Tyre choice is also important - I will only use conti GP4000 now after going through a raft of different makes and models.

sniper68

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!
Going to replace the Ultegra with SRAM when the summer bike is off road for Winter and when I replace the CX bike next year I'll go for a SRAM specced model.

beak58

bsharp77 wrote:

Comfort wise I think the only option you have other than bar tape is the tyres.

Don't know if you're running 23 or 25, but 25 at around 90psi would be close to the sweet spot for comfort in my experience (pressure may differ depending on weight etc.).
Tyre choice is also important - I will only use conti GP4000 now after going through a raft of different makes and models.

Thanks for that, the GP4000 keeps coming up as the tyre to be on.
I am still on the 25mm specialised armadillos I bought when I got the bike (was paranoid about punctures, and to be fair none so far over glass, autumn twigs etc.)
How have you found the gp4000s for puncture resistance?

bsharp77

I'm asking for a visit from the puncture fairy with this......

I've been using my current set for over 5000km with no issues whatsoever, although I try to be as careful as possible picking out a clean line on the roads!
Its not always possible of course, but I've found the GP4000 to be just as good as other more resistant alternatives, while providing a lovely supple feel.

I've had michelin pro4 endurance, gatorskins (yuck yuck yuck), schwalbe duranos and panasonic panracers in the past and I've had more punctures on them than I've had on the GP4000! So I don't see the point in sacrificing lovely road feel for something that not providing any real life extra benefit.

Of course, everyones experiences will be different, but hopefully this gives you some help in deciding.

ayjaycee

ibbo68 wrote:

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

Back to the original question, IMHO Ultegra looks better and is maybe a bit slicker in operation but not by much. Is it worth the extra money? Common sense says probably not but when did common sense ever come into it? My view would be buy Ultegra as you will probably wish you had if you don't. One thing you might wish to note is that Ultegra 6800 brakes do not have as much room under them as the 105 5800 version - I can use 'proper' mudguards on my Allez with 105 brakes but not with the Ultegras. At the end of the day, it probably depends upon how much that £150 means to you.

keef66

"The lizardskin tape has really helped, I don't even need gloves now"

I'd still suggest you wear mitts. The Lizardskin tape won't do much if you come off and stick a hand out as you hit the deck.

optrexeyedrops

Whatever you can afford is the answer. They are both good and you won't notice much difference out on the road. I have both, 105 on my winter bike and Ultegra on my better bike.

As the old saying goes with any kit, buy the best you can afford at the time.

optrexeyedrops

bsharp77 wrote:

Comfort wise I think the only option you have other than bar tape is the tyres.

Don't know if you're running 23 or 25, but 25 at around 90psi would be close to the sweet spot for comfort in my experience (pressure may differ depending on weight etc.).
Tyre choice is also important - I will only use conti GP4000 now after going through a raft of different makes and models.

Ive had every tyre known to man and they all have their pros and cons but the one I've finally settled on is the Specialized Turbo S-Works in 26". Its not actually a 26, measures more like a 25. But it rolls like a Schwalbe with the puncture protection of the better Contis. Not had a single puncture in 1000 miles and still going strong.

http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Specia ... -2016/7ML1

bsharp77

Hmmm, thats one that never crossed my path before. Im due a new set soon, so may try them for research purposes!

beak58

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

Back to the original question, IMHO Ultegra looks better and is maybe a bit slicker in operation but not by much. Is it worth the extra money? Common sense says probably not but when did common sense ever come into it? My view would be buy Ultegra as you will probably wish you had if you don't. One thing you might wish to note is that Ultegra 6800 brakes do not have as much room under them as the 105 5800 version - I can use 'proper' mudguards on my Allez with 105 brakes but not with the Ultegras. At the end of the day, it probably depends upon how much that £150 means to you.

Thank you, I have gone and ordered the 105 now as Wiggle has it on at £285 which I think is pretty good value. I am still at the stage where I am relaying the actual price of things to the wife rather than understating things by 50-95% (this may change if and when I buy a power meter....;))

To be honest I have found Tiagra to absolutely be fine as I am now pretty good with adjustments, maintenance, cleaning etc. (thanks Youtube). Some of the stuff is just on the way out so I figured I may as well move up to the 105/ultegra level if I was upgrading to a whole matching groupset, (at 92kg I have no need, nor indeed perception, of the piddling weight savings of Dura-ace yet)

Thanks again for all input it really helps.

daniel_b

beak58 wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

Back to the original question, IMHO Ultegra looks better and is maybe a bit slicker in operation but not by much. Is it worth the extra money? Common sense says probably not but when did common sense ever come into it? My view would be buy Ultegra as you will probably wish you had if you don't. One thing you might wish to note is that Ultegra 6800 brakes do not have as much room under them as the 105 5800 version - I can use 'proper' mudguards on my Allez with 105 brakes but not with the Ultegras. At the end of the day, it probably depends upon how much that £150 means to you.

Thank you, I have gone and ordered the 105 now as Wiggle has it on at £285 which I think is pretty good value. I am still at the stage where I am relaying the actual price of things to the wife rather than understating things by 50-95% (this may change if and when I buy a power meter....;))

To be honest I have found Tiagra to absolutely be fine as I am now pretty good with adjustments, maintenance, cleaning etc. (thanks Youtube). Some of the stuff is just on the way out so I figured I may as well move up to the 105/ultegra level if I was upgrading to a whole matching groupset, (at 92kg I have no need, nor indeed perception, of the piddling weight savings of Dura-ace yet)

Thanks again for all input it really helps.

DID you go through Topcashback?!
if you are quick, you have time to cancel, sign up, and re-order.
£9ish is what you will get back I think, but better than a poke in the eye with a stick.

beak58

keef66 wrote:

"The lizardskin tape has really helped, I don't even need gloves now"

I'd still suggest you wear mitts. The Lizardskin tape won't do much if you come off and stick a hand out as you hit the deck.

Whoops. I genuinely didn't think of this, I always just thought of my mitts as a comfort thing. I guess it means i've been lucky so far, but definitely back to mitts now, cheers

beak58

Daniel B wrote:

beak58 wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

Back to the original question, IMHO Ultegra looks better and is maybe a bit slicker in operation but not by much. Is it worth the extra money? Common sense says probably not but when did common sense ever come into it? My view would be buy Ultegra as you will probably wish you had if you don't. One thing you might wish to note is that Ultegra 6800 brakes do not have as much room under them as the 105 5800 version - I can use 'proper' mudguards on my Allez with 105 brakes but not with the Ultegras. At the end of the day, it probably depends upon how much that £150 means to you.

Thank you, I have gone and ordered the 105 now as Wiggle has it on at £285 which I think is pretty good value. I am still at the stage where I am relaying the actual price of things to the wife rather than understating things by 50-95% (this may change if and when I buy a power meter....;))

To be honest I have found Tiagra to absolutely be fine as I am now pretty good with adjustments, maintenance, cleaning etc. (thanks Youtube). Some of the stuff is just on the way out so I figured I may as well move up to the 105/ultegra level if I was upgrading to a whole matching groupset, (at 92kg I have no need, nor indeed perception, of the piddling weight savings of Dura-ace yet)

Thanks again for all input it really helps.

DID you go through Topcashback?!
if you are quick, you have time to cancel, sign up, and re-order.
£9ish is what you will get back I think, but better than a poke in the eye with a stick.

Oh no didn't realise they do cashback, went through finance option so can't cancel and reorder (credit check interval thingy). Ah well.

I usually love anything moneysaving as well (seasoned matched bettor......... )

svetty

Some of the extra price associated with G/S hierarchy relates to durability in my experience. I also find that Ultegra chains and cassettes are more corrosion resistant than 105 (DA too expensive for consumables though).

sniper68

beak58 wrote:

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

I can assure you it IS correctly set up by the only bike mechanic I trust...me 8) It ran like a bag of nails when it came on the Bike and its 1000% better now but still not what I expect from a higher end system :roll:
ALL Shimano is clunky and industrial feeling IMO and that includes their MTB stuff which I stopped using years ago.I had a ride on my mates bike with Di2 and that's the same but electronic..press...clunk.
SRAM is and has been for years far,far smoother 8)
Never tried Campag so can't comment on it.
I've used SRAM for years on MTBs and just put up with the Ultegra on the Road bike as everyone says "That's Shimano and it isn't clunky"Well it is to me!
I had a test on a bike with SRAM Force and it just works.The Double-Tap system just makes perfect sense and it's very smooth and quiet 8)

optrexeyedrops

beak58 wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

Back to the original question, IMHO Ultegra looks better and is maybe a bit slicker in operation but not by much. Is it worth the extra money? Common sense says probably not but when did common sense ever come into it? My view would be buy Ultegra as you will probably wish you had if you don't. One thing you might wish to note is that Ultegra 6800 brakes do not have as much room under them as the 105 5800 version - I can use 'proper' mudguards on my Allez with 105 brakes but not with the Ultegras. At the end of the day, it probably depends upon how much that £150 means to you.

Thank you, I have gone and ordered the 105 now as Wiggle has it on at £285 which I think is pretty good value. I am still at the stage where I am relaying the actual price of things to the wife rather than understating things by 50-95% (this may change if and when I buy a power meter....;))

To be honest I have found Tiagra to absolutely be fine as I am now pretty good with adjustments, maintenance, cleaning etc. (thanks Youtube). Some of the stuff is just on the way out so I figured I may as well move up to the 105/ultegra level if I was upgrading to a whole matching groupset, (at 92kg I have no need, nor indeed perception, of the piddling weight savings of Dura-ace yet)

Thanks again for all input it really helps.

A few points:

1. NEVER tell the Mrs what anything costs for cycling kit. This is like Fight Club mate, you never talk about it. The most you can say is 'It was £xxx...reduced to £xxx in the sales' and thats it. She's happy. You're happy. She would never tell you the full price of a pair of shoes and this is our equivalent. If by some unfortunate event she finds out the price, you immediately hit her with "yes, but its a one off and I'm really into it to keep me healthy for you and a kids....'. if you don't have kids, say its all for her so you can grow old together. But remember. Never talk about Fight Club.

2. There are only two times you ever need to worry about weight. 1-your bodyweight. 2 rotational mass weight i.e.: wheels. The first you can reduce with diet and more cycling. The second you can spend money on and its one of the only areas where you will actually notice the difference on a ride with a lighter pair of wheels than a heavy set. You can save a few grams here and there on stems, bars..but you won't really notice the difference as you will with lighter wheels, tyres, hubs, cassettes or inner tubes. Theres no point worrying about a few grams on the bike and spending thousands trying to reduce it when you know you can lose half a stone and make a much bigger difference. Or if you've gone out on a sunday morning after a night on the curry and its still sitting in your stomach.

fat daddy

optrexeyedrops wrote:

beak58 wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

1-your bodyweight. 2.

yup

My bike + me + clothes weigh 85kg

Guess how I reduced this weight to 84.5 kg last week ? ... did I

(a) spend £1k and upgrade to a dura Ace group set.
(b) ate 500cal a day less for 7 days and lost 1lb of weight

as it turns out, neither are worth it as I can tell cock all difference going up hills !

optrexeyedrops

fat daddy wrote:

optrexeyedrops wrote:

beak58 wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

1-your bodyweight. 2.

yup

My bike + me + clothes weigh 85kg

Guess how I reduced this weight to 84.5 kg last week ? ... did I

(a) spend £1k and upgrade to a dura Ace group set.
(b) ate 500cal a day less for 7 days and lost 1lb of weight

as it turns out, neither are worth it as I can tell fool all difference going up hills !

But lose another 6lb and you will

fat daddy

optrexeyedrops wrote:

But lose another 6lb and you will

I have lost 10kg this year ... my riding is no better but I have spent a fortune on new clothing that now fits

Well that's not true, I have cut my commute time by 35-40% ... but how much of that is weight loss and how much is just general fitness

Perhaps I should strap a 10kg weight to the bike and see what times I get ?

mrb123

optrexeyedrops wrote:

beak58 wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

Back to the original question, IMHO Ultegra looks better and is maybe a bit slicker in operation but not by much. Is it worth the extra money? Common sense says probably not but when did common sense ever come into it? My view would be buy Ultegra as you will probably wish you had if you don't. One thing you might wish to note is that Ultegra 6800 brakes do not have as much room under them as the 105 5800 version - I can use 'proper' mudguards on my Allez with 105 brakes but not with the Ultegras. At the end of the day, it probably depends upon how much that £150 means to you.

Thank you, I have gone and ordered the 105 now as Wiggle has it on at £285 which I think is pretty good value. I am still at the stage where I am relaying the actual price of things to the wife rather than understating things by 50-95% (this may change if and when I buy a power meter....;))

To be honest I have found Tiagra to absolutely be fine as I am now pretty good with adjustments, maintenance, cleaning etc. (thanks Youtube). Some of the stuff is just on the way out so I figured I may as well move up to the 105/ultegra level if I was upgrading to a whole matching groupset, (at 92kg I have no need, nor indeed perception, of the piddling weight savings of Dura-ace yet)

Thanks again for all input it really helps.

A few points:

1. NEVER tell the Mrs what anything costs for cycling kit. This is like Fight Club mate, you never talk about it. The most you can say is 'It was £xxx...reduced to £xxx in the sales' and thats it. She's happy. You're happy. She would never tell you the full price of a pair of shoes and this is our equivalent. If by some unfortunate event she finds out the price, you immediately hit her with "yes, but its a one off and I'm really into it to keep me healthy for you and a kids....'. if you don't have kids, say its all for her so you can grow old together. But remember. Never talk about Fight Club.

2. There are only two times you ever need to worry about weight. 1-your bodyweight. 2 rotational mass weight i.e.: wheels. The first you can reduce with diet and more cycling. The second you can spend money on and its one of the only areas where you will actually notice the difference on a ride with a lighter pair of wheels than a heavy set. You can save a few grams here and there on stems, bars..but you won't really notice the difference as you will with lighter wheels, tyres, hubs, cassettes or inner tubes. Theres no point worrying about a few grams on the bike and spending thousands trying to reduce it when you know you can lose half a stone and make a much bigger difference. Or if you've gone out on a sunday morning after a night on the curry and its still sitting in your stomach.

Completely agree with point 1.

As for point two, you're a better man than I if you think you could notice the difference of having a lighter cassette! Isn't the whole rotational weight thing an urban myth?

optrexeyedrops

MrB123 wrote:

optrexeyedrops wrote:

beak58 wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

ibbo68 wrote:

I have Ultegra on my Summer bike and Claris on my CX/Winter bike and there's not much difference.
Both are clunky but that's Shimano for you!

For balance, that's certainly NOT my experience with Ultegra - properly set up, it is very smooth.

Back to the original question, IMHO Ultegra looks better and is maybe a bit slicker in operation but not by much. Is it worth the extra money? Common sense says probably not but when did common sense ever come into it? My view would be buy Ultegra as you will probably wish you had if you don't. One thing you might wish to note is that Ultegra 6800 brakes do not have as much room under them as the 105 5800 version - I can use 'proper' mudguards on my Allez with 105 brakes but not with the Ultegras. At the end of the day, it probably depends upon how much that £150 means to you.

Thank you, I have gone and ordered the 105 now as Wiggle has it on at £285 which I think is pretty good value. I am still at the stage where I am relaying the actual price of things to the wife rather than understating things by 50-95% (this may change if and when I buy a power meter....;))

To be honest I have found Tiagra to absolutely be fine as I am now pretty good with adjustments, maintenance, cleaning etc. (thanks Youtube). Some of the stuff is just on the way out so I figured I may as well move up to the 105/ultegra level if I was upgrading to a whole matching groupset, (at 92kg I have no need, nor indeed perception, of the piddling weight savings of Dura-ace yet)

Thanks again for all input it really helps.

A few points:

1. NEVER tell the Mrs what anything costs for cycling kit. This is like Fight Club mate, you never talk about it. The most you can say is 'It was £xxx...reduced to £xxx in the sales' and thats it. She's happy. You're happy. She would never tell you the full price of a pair of shoes and this is our equivalent. If by some unfortunate event she finds out the price, you immediately hit her with "yes, but its a one off and I'm really into it to keep me healthy for you and a kids....'. if you don't have kids, say its all for her so you can grow old together. But remember. Never talk about Fight Club.

2. There are only two times you ever need to worry about weight. 1-your bodyweight. 2 rotational mass weight i.e.: wheels. The first you can reduce with diet and more cycling. The second you can spend money on and its one of the only areas where you will actually notice the difference on a ride with a lighter pair of wheels than a heavy set. You can save a few grams here and there on stems, bars..but you won't really notice the difference as you will with lighter wheels, tyres, hubs, cassettes or inner tubes. Theres no point worrying about a few grams on the bike and spending thousands trying to reduce it when you know you can lose half a stone and make a much bigger difference. Or if you've gone out on a sunday morning after a night on the curry and its still sitting in your stomach.

Completely agree with point 1.

As for point two, you're a better man than I if you think you could notice the difference of having a lighter cassette! Isn't the whole rotational weight thing an urban myth?

It would take more than just a cassette, granted, but the point i make about rotational mass is a valid one. If you're going to try and lose weight off a bike to make a noticeable difference, then its widely accepted that if you spend money anywhere, it should be on rotational mass i.e.: wheels etc as i pointed out. Realistically, you would upgrade all of those things at the same time to really notice a difference or maybe just the wheels. But a cassette on its own, probably not. You might save a few watts because it runs a bit smoother over the course of a ride but thats a different story.

Reducing bodyweight is by far the best thing you can do, weight wise.

optrexeyedrops

fat daddy wrote:

optrexeyedrops wrote:

But lose another 6lb and you will

I have lost 10kg this year ... my riding is no better but I have spent a fortune on new clothing that now fits

Well that's not true, I have cut my commute time by 35-40% ... but how much of that is weight loss and how much is just general fitness

Perhaps I should strap a 10kg weight to the bike and see what times I get ?

Its probably both. 10kg is a lot, you said yourself your commute time has gone down and its probably a mix of losing weight and getting fitter. You need to push on now, don't rest up. You're probably capable of riding far quicker/better than you think you are due to the weight loss. You've still got your fat head on mate! push it!!