Strange heart rate

joe2008
joe2008 Posts: 1,531
edited September 2016 in Training, fitness and health
A friend who doesn't train often, decided that she wanted to find her heart rate zones.

So, she starts running on a treadmill and her heart rate gradually climbs to 150, then suddenly plummets to 80 as she continues to run, it only rises to 90 over the next 10 minutes, even though she is clearly finding the effort hard.

This happens every time we try the test. We try it with a polar heart rate strap and treadmill monitor, and with my Garmin strap and a Garmin 500.

We thought the straps may be slipping as she ran, so, we tried on my turbo trainer using the Polar heart rate strap and Tacx monitor... again, her heart rate gets to 150 and plummets to 80. We immediately take her pulse and it is, indeed, at 80.

She went to the GP this morning and he said, as she had experienced not other effects such as dizziness, breathlessness etc, it was a technology failure, and that her heart was normal. She had an ECG which came back as perfectly normal. So, that's good.

However, we think it's not the tech; I tried all the same tests just after her and my heart rate was consistent with what I'd expect.

Any thoughts?
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Comments

  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    When you say you took her pulse - you took it manually - removing the tech from the equation ?

    If that's so then she needs to go back to the doctor and have another check.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    Can you print out a graph of the Heart Rate - should be able to get it from Strava or Garmin connect etc, then you can show the doctor what you're talking about. Ideally with a consistent effort level.

    It may well be nothing but HR being at a hard effort level, and suddenly going down to resting type levels isn't normal at all.

    If I was going to make any bets I would still say it's a tech issue mind.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    Fenix wrote:
    When you say you took her pulse - you took it manually - removing the tech from the equation ?

    If that's so then she needs to go back to the doctor and have another check.

    Yes, we did it manually and it was 80 despite it being 150 just seconds before on the Tacx... and she was sweating and had clearly been working hard, for her.
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    That has got to be a tech issue if she feels no difference in dizziness etc with the effort being the same. Imagine you were climbing a hill and your heart rate suddenly cut in half, you would feel the effects of that pretty quickly.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    Can you print out a graph of the Heart Rate - should be able to get it from Strava or Garmin connect etc, then you can show the doctor what you're talking about. Ideally with a consistent effort level.

    It may well be nothing but HR being at a hard effort level, and suddenly going down to resting type levels isn't normal at all.

    If I was going to make any bets I would still say it's a tech issue mind.

    Unfortunately, with a print out the doctor will just say tech failure.

    Because she is healthy, and has a normal ECG they won't refer her for an NHS treadmill test.

    It's a strange one, and what's really odd is that she can keep running at a hard effort, what I would say is above 170 type level, after her heart rate has fallen to 80, but no matter how hard she tries it won't go back above 90, until she stops and recovers.

    A new effort 10 minutes later and the same scenario happens all over again, 150 drop to 80 etc.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    In addition to using the HR straps etc can you use an optical sensor? Just a smartphone with a heart rate app would do the job, just to get two different measuring sources.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    Craigus89 wrote:
    That has got to be a tech issue if she feels no difference in dizziness etc with the effort being the same. Imagine you were climbing a hill and your heart rate suddenly cut in half, you would feel the effects of that pretty quickly.

    I would yes, for sure, but she doesn't and, judging by her pulse, her heart rate really is plummeting while exercising hard.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    edited August 2016
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    In addition to using the HR straps etc can you use an optical sensor? Just a smartphone with a heart rate app would do the job, just to get two different measuring sources.

    We've tried it with 3 different measuring sources, Polar strap / treadmill, Garmin strap / Garmin 500 and a different Polar strap / Tacx. Plus, taking her pulse manually. All consistently showed the drop at around 150 to 80.

    Unfortunately, neither of us owns a smart phone.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Was her ECG static or on a treadmill?
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    Imposter wrote:
    Was her ECG static or on a treadmill?

    Unfortunately, static, they won't give her a treadmill one without a reason that they can see.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    edited August 2016
    joe2008 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Was her ECG static or on a treadmill?

    Unfortunately, static, they won't give her a treadmill one without a reason that they can see.

    I'm thinking it may be worth paying for a private test.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    I went to the docs a couple of weeks ago. I was having bouts of palpitations lasting for several hours. Resting HR is normally 70 bpm but during the episodes dropped to 60 and I could feel the skipped beats at the radial pulse.
    Twice they hooked me up to a multi-lead ECG and by the time they switched it on everything was normal which was very frustrating. All they managed to record was a single ectopic beat. Bloods were taken for testing and I go back to discuss the results on Friday.

    I can't imagine a cardiologist thinking your friend's heart rate is normal if it is actually suddenly falling despite exertion, but how to get to see one??
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    keef66 wrote:

    I can't imagine a cardiologist thinking your friend's heart rate is normal if it is actually suddenly falling despite exertion, but how to get to see one??

    Say you're experiencing chest pains, that's the usual way!
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    No other symptoms apart from the apparent drop in HR? I'd have thought if exercising hard, having your HR suddenly halved would quickly induce fatigue, dizziness etc.

    Could dehydration have been a factor?
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    keef66 wrote:
    No other symptoms apart from the apparent drop in HR? I'd have thought if exercising hard, having your HR suddenly halved would quickly induce fatigue, dizziness etc.

    Could dehydration have been a factor?

    She was drinking some water, but we can't rule it out, but still seems very odd.

    She's reminded me that the last time she tried to use a heart rate monitor, about 2 years ago, she couldn't get her heart rate up above 90 no matter how much she tried on the treadmill, she put that down to lack of fitness (I know) and or, tech failure at the time; it put her off heart rate monitors.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    That's concerning in itself. As you no doubt know lack of fitness would generally cause the opposite. Again it's probably nothing but your heart is controlled by your own internal pacemaker sending it electric impluses and if that's going wrong it's not something that you want to leave to chance.
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    Is she on any meds?
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    What is her resting HR, what is her recovery rate like, was she running on an empty stomach? Can you get her on a watt bike or similar and show power, cadence etc as well as HR.. Most gyms will give you a free trial Your garmin should pick it up as a power meter. a 20 minute FTP test would be perfect.

    I think you need other data lines to see if this is a problem or just a bit of slacking off.

    This could be nothing more than not understanding "hard".
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  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    Presumably the treadmill is running at a constant speed, so it's not like she could slack off even if she wanted to?

    The equivalent on a bike would be a trainer with ERG mode which could be set to require you to output (say) 200 watts and will always adjust the resistance so you do that no matter what.
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    Without seeing more data nobody can say if she was working hard to start with, plus with running its so easy to be inefficient and then get in to the grove as you get going. I'm thinking a bike would show up any other changes better.

    They wont normally do a treadmill test for anyone who is remotely fit as your fitness can mask the problem.
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  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    I've been using HRM's for about 30 years now.

    It is not normal to go from 150 bpm to 80bpm, No way. Not in cycling. Not in running. Not at the same effort.

    A lot of doctors won't know anything about sports medicine so you should ask for a referral to a specialist.

    What speed was she running at ? I cant imagine any running speed that could give me a HR of 80.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    My HR is generally higher than 80bpm as I wheel the bike out of the garage. Can't imagine running at any speed is compatible with that!
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    Fenix wrote:
    I've been using HRM's for about 30 years now.

    It is not normal to go from 150 bpm to 80bpm, No way. Not in cycling. Not in running. Not at the same effort.

    A lot of doctors won't know anything about sports medicine so you should ask for a referral to a specialist.

    What speed was she running at ? I cant imagine any running speed that could give me a HR of 80.

    Thanks for all the replies.

    She is not on any meds.

    Her resting heart rate recorded at the docs today was 80 bpm - probably a bit of white coat syndrome, so maybe a bit lower really.

    Speed on treadmill was being increased by me trying to get a max heart rate figure - about 7mph at fastest.

    Also tried on my turbo trainer which gave a wattage from 150 watts to 200 watts which is where her heart rate was 150 bpm, and then dropped to 80 bpm desire her being able to continue pedaling at 200 watts, which is when we took a manual pulse, which confirmed 80 bpm.
  • reds99
    reds99 Posts: 46
    What you can ask for is a 24 hr ecg machine/test. Though you may need a referral to a cardiologist.
    My mrs has wolf parkinson white syndrome which is the exact opposite of your issue. Normal HR then starts beating @ 200+ a min. And that can be just sitting watching TV.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    joe2008 wrote:
    Fenix wrote:
    I've been using HRM's for about 30 years now.

    It is not normal to go from 150 bpm to 80bpm, No way. Not in cycling. Not in running. Not at the same effort.

    A lot of doctors won't know anything about sports medicine so you should ask for a referral to a specialist.

    What speed was she running at ? I cant imagine any running speed that could give me a HR of 80.

    Thanks for all the replies.

    She is not on any meds.

    Her resting heart rate recorded at the docs today was 80 bpm - probably a bit of white coat syndrome, so maybe a bit lower really.

    Speed on treadmill was being increased by me trying to get a max heart rate figure - about 7mph at fastest.

    Also tried on my turbo trainer which gave a wattage from 150 watts to 200 watts which is where her heart rate was 150 bpm, and then dropped to 80 bpm desire her being able to continue pedaling at 200 watts, which is when we took a manual pulse, which confirmed 80 bpm.

    Have you got a plot of that perhaps from Strava to see wattage over time with HR?
  • AK_jnr
    AK_jnr Posts: 717
    Not sure why everyone is asking what speed/power she was working at. If she was RUNNING and it felt tough she is not just going to be at 80 bpm is she! No matter how easy that is in your mind.
    My resting HR is 45 with a 17 min 5k, if I'm on a treadmill and jogging my HR will be a lot higher than 80. Thats with a 185 max.
    Definitely seems something medical rather so I hope she keeps on at the doc to get to the bottom of it.
  • joe2008
    joe2008 Posts: 1,531
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    joe2008 wrote:
    Fenix wrote:
    I've been using HRM's for about 30 years now.

    It is not normal to go from 150 bpm to 80bpm, No way. Not in cycling. Not in running. Not at the same effort.

    A lot of doctors won't know anything about sports medicine so you should ask for a referral to a specialist.

    What speed was she running at ? I cant imagine any running speed that could give me a HR of 80.

    Thanks for all the replies.

    She is not on any meds.

    Her resting heart rate recorded at the docs today was 80 bpm - probably a bit of white coat syndrome, so maybe a bit lower really.

    Speed on treadmill was being increased by me trying to get a max heart rate figure - about 7mph at fastest.

    Also tried on my turbo trainer which gave a wattage from 150 watts to 200 watts which is where her heart rate was 150 bpm, and then dropped to 80 bpm desire her being able to continue pedaling at 200 watts, which is when we took a manual pulse, which confirmed 80 bpm.

    Have you got a plot of that perhaps from Strava to see wattage over time with HR?

    No, it's a very old Tacx, more than 10 years old, with no output. It used to connect to a printer via some antiquated means, but I never bothered, and I've long lost the lead, not that it would connect to any modern printer.
  • the_jackalcp
    the_jackalcp Posts: 276
    Any chance you have a copy of the ECG and would be willing to post it? Just because the GP said it's fine doesn't necessarily make it so. They are after all general practitioners and their ECG interpretation may not go beyond basics.
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  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    I have a resting HR of 36-38, there is no way I could hold 200 watts at 80bpm for more than a few seconds before it started to rise to 100-115ish. How long does it stay like this before going back up?
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  • GGBiker
    GGBiker Posts: 450
    This might be of help:

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/36978 ... -exercise/

    Her lack of symptoms (light head, fatigue, faint) with it would go against an underlying cardiac problem unless the drops in HR were so brief that symptoms don't occur.

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