Could / should Power meters be banned?

yorkshireraw

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

PS - prior to last year Bardet never trained on his TT bike...

Is Bardet noted for being particularly stupid? My 12 and 13 year old kids are competitive swimming and they already know - without anyone telling them ie they worked it out by themselves - that if you're due to race the butterfly, you're going to be pretty cr*p if you never swim it in training!

Apologies to Bardet if he was contractually obliged to not train on his TT bike when any fool can see that if you're losing time in TTs in a stage race you should doing some f***ing practice!

Again, it's back to the fact a lot of the French teams provide French riders with a comfortable environment in which to have a decent career without necessarily delivering top results. In return you guess the riders aren't challenging the thinking of the hierarchies so the same patterns were repeated. AG2R have been around in various guises for quite a while, similarly FDJ, Cofidis and D Energie.

Andy & Frank Schleck were repeatedly ridiculed for losing minutes on the TTs when they were challenging for the tour yet never really appeared to care or address it. They liked climbing so that's what they did.

yorkshireraw

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

If you read Millar's first book he got no guidance from Cofidis in terms of training...

Do we know what Millar did in response to this? He's a bright guy, so presumably did some research into "proper training".

Can't recall - will have to go back and read up. I do remember he got a coach in Spain in about 01/02 but that was also maybe in conjunction with his 'programme'.
Think later on (after his comeback) he did some work with Cecchini who he rated but that didn't last long - maybe because Cecchini was encouraging (or not against at least) doping, or because Millar realised he couldn't claim to now be riding clean and work with someone whose reputation on the issue is mixed.

All the above could be mis-remembered tho!

Barbarossa

Why not insist that everyone rides with a power meter and broadcast the powers? Enough people now know what 350W or 600W means that it would add to the tv coverage.

rick_chasey

To what end?

It adds no real value for the viewer.

I can tell they're riding at high power because they're going fast.

Barbarossa

If I were you, I would be asking Brailsford for a job. The ability to know how exactly hard a competitor is riding just by looking at them must be invaluable :-)

Lanterne_Rogue

Barbarossa wrote:

If I were you, I would be asking Brailsford for a job. The ability to know how exactly hard a competitor is riding just by looking at them must be invaluable :-)

I might be thick, but the faster they're going the more watts they must be putting out regardless of what that output is. Even so, knowing what power someone is producing doesn't tell you much about anything, really; the benefit for training is that a power output of 400W on the hills is the same as 400W on the flat so you can train consistently.

In a race somebody else's power output doesn't tell you whether they're on the rivet or not on that particular day; it's almost like there's a perception that if you're feeling particularly fit you can magically go faster for a given power output. If they're climbing at the same pace as you and putting out a different wattage they're either on a more or less efficient bike, weigh a different amount, or are spending less time in the wind. None of those tells you whether it's safe to attack them or whether you're doing enough to despatch them out the back.

Get hold of their heartrate data, on the other hand...

twist83

Are some people really suggesting that if you removed Power Meters especially from Sky that they would not be as effective.

They have a very strong team this year that are conditioned to perform at that level.

Even a lowly weekend warrior like myself has a Power Meter, I have used one for about a year and a half. On the occasions the battery ran out or the time it went back for repair, I still knew when I was hurting or not.

So I am pretty sure that the Sky riders would be able to ascertain from there effort if a breakaway is likely to stick.

At the end of the day Sky seem to have the strongest riders and most cohesive team. Take away the PM and that will still be the case IMO. They just know how to use the tools available to them and put in the graft it seems.

bianchi_dave

twist83 wrote:

Are some people really suggesting that if you removed Power Meters especially from Sky that they would not be as effective.

They have a very strong team this year that are conditioned to perform at that level.

Even a lowly weekend warrior like myself has a Power Meter, I have used one for about a year and a half. On the occasions the battery ran out or the time it went back for repair, I still knew when I was hurting or not.

So I am pretty sure that the Sky riders would be able to ascertain from there effort if a breakaway is likely to stick.

At the end of the day Sky seem to have the strongest riders and most cohesive team. Take away the PM and that will still be the case IMO. They just know how to use the tools available to them and put in the graft it seems.

I'm not suggesting that at all and just used Sky as an example. We all know the mountain train tactic has been used for years, to great effect by various teams and rightly so - after all they are in it to win and it is an effective tactic. I was just suggesting that power meters may make it easier for any rider /team to gauge their effort. Of course meters are great for training, I'm just not sure they have a place in professional racing.

Lanterne_Rogue

Incidentally, on today's stage it looked very much as if Porte wasn't monitoring his heart rate (at least he didn't have one of the chest bands on). If he's happy not to bother with that information I'd be staggered if he was paying any attention to a power meter.

twist83

I get what you are saying BIanchi Dave. But where do you stop to strike out advantages? Cap team budgets? Limit R&D. Force them to all ride the same bikes, kit etc.

I don't think removing the PM from racing would be the magic bullet to make it 'exciting'. Let's face it. While spectators are important. They are there to win races.

Pretty sure power meters are here to stay. Bit like the drug debate. EPO etc needed to be combined with actually working hard. You don't just juice up and fly like Lance.

Same thing with PM. You don't just remove them and make racing more exciting and you don't suddenly become as strong as most of Team SKY because you have a PM strapped on the bike.

dinyull

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

PS - prior to last year Bardet never trained on his TT bike...

Is Bardet noted for being particularly stupid? My 12 and 13 year old kids are competitive swimming and they already know - without anyone telling them ie they worked it out by themselves - that if you're due to race the butterfly, you're going to be pretty cr*p if you never swim it in training!

Apologies to Bardet if he was contractually obliged to not train on his TT bike when any fool can see that if you're losing time in TTs in a stage race you should doing some f***ing practice!

In Nico Roche autobiography he said that when he was at AG2R he never trained on his TT bike. This was while competing for Top 10's in the Tour. It was only his dad's suggestion that made him request a training TT bike from the team.

Alex99

Bianchi Dave wrote:

Hi All
Don't normally post in pro race but enjoy reading all your musings, so thank you!
A lot has been said in recent times about the mountain trains strangling stage racing and this is very apparent with Sky's Tour team of strong climbers this year, likely exacerbated by possible poor form or bad luck of competitors.
Not sure if its been mentioned before but it seems to me if the UCI were to ban the use of power meters in racing, it could make it much more interesting. At present (just using Sky as an example) a team recces the climbs and knows exactly how many watts they need to maintain to make any attacks futile, knowing that the attacking rider will have go into the red to get a jump on them, meaning they can be patient and calmly reel them in as the attacker starts to tire. Froome especially, pays a lot of attention to his power meter, being very careful not to over stretch himself. This may well be why the likes of Quintana has not attacked, as he knows the pace of the Sky train is simply too high to make the attack stick.
If this electronic aid were taken away, teams and riders would have to rely on how they actually feel and read the race as it unfolds, instead of watching the numbers? I suppose you could liken it to pro golf, where a player has to rely on his caddie for yardages etc, instead of using GPS devices, which are banned in pro competition.

Isn't there a special rules that goes "when an article or post title is framed as a question, the answer is, no."

DeVlaeminck

underlayunderlay wrote:

Incidentally, on today's stage it looked very much as if Porte wasn't monitoring his heart rate (at least he didn't have one of the chest bands on). If he's happy not to bother with that information I'd be staggered if he was paying any attention to a power meter.

Really why ?

dish_dash

Alex99 wrote:

Bianchi Dave wrote:

Hi All
Don't normally post in pro race but enjoy reading all your musings, so thank you!
A lot has been said in recent times about the mountain trains strangling stage racing and this is very apparent with Sky's Tour team of strong climbers this year, likely exacerbated by possible poor form or bad luck of competitors.
Not sure if its been mentioned before but it seems to me if the UCI were to ban the use of power meters in racing, it could make it much more interesting. At present (just using Sky as an example) a team recces the climbs and knows exactly how many watts they need to maintain to make any attacks futile, knowing that the attacking rider will have go into the red to get a jump on them, meaning they can be patient and calmly reel them in as the attacker starts to tire. Froome especially, pays a lot of attention to his power meter, being very careful not to over stretch himself. This may well be why the likes of Quintana has not attacked, as he knows the pace of the Sky train is simply too high to make the attack stick.
If this electronic aid were taken away, teams and riders would have to rely on how they actually feel and read the race as it unfolds, instead of watching the numbers? I suppose you could liken it to pro golf, where a player has to rely on his caddie for yardages etc, instead of using GPS devices, which are banned in pro competition.

Isn't there a special rules that goes "when an article or post title is framed as a question, the answer is, no."

yep, john rentoul had/has a whole gig going on along those lines...

RichN95.

Alex99 wrote:

Isn't there a special rules that goes "when an article or post title is framed as a question, the answer is, no."

Betteridge's Law of Headlines

shinyhelmut

DeVlaeminck wrote:

underlayunderlay wrote:

Incidentally, on today's stage it looked very much as if Porte wasn't monitoring his heart rate (at least he didn't have one of the chest bands on). If he's happy not to bother with that information I'd be staggered if he was paying any attention to a power meter.

Really why ?

I don't cycle much any more but when I run I rarely look at my HR, but often check my pace. Just because Porte isn't wearing a HR strap does not mean he's not pacing using power.