Could / should Power meters be banned?

bianchi_dave

Hi All
Don't normally post in pro race but enjoy reading all your musings, so thank you!
A lot has been said in recent times about the mountain trains strangling stage racing and this is very apparent with Sky's Tour team of strong climbers this year, likely exacerbated by possible poor form or bad luck of competitors.
Not sure if its been mentioned before but it seems to me if the UCI were to ban the use of power meters in racing, it could make it much more interesting. At present (just using Sky as an example) a team recces the climbs and knows exactly how many watts they need to maintain to make any attacks futile, knowing that the attacking rider will have go into the red to get a jump on them, meaning they can be patient and calmly reel them in as the attacker starts to tire. Froome especially, pays a lot of attention to his power meter, being very careful not to over stretch himself. This may well be why the likes of Quintana has not attacked, as he knows the pace of the Sky train is simply too high to make the attack stick.
If this electronic aid were taken away, teams and riders would have to rely on how they actually feel and read the race as it unfolds, instead of watching the numbers? I suppose you could liken it to pro golf, where a player has to rely on his caddie for yardages etc, instead of using GPS devices, which are banned in pro competition.

tim000

no.

ozzzyosborn206

i think if they were banned you may find breaks given less time and anyway i am pretty sure most riders could ride off feel and know that the pace they set will discourage any attacks, Its not that sky use power meters to kind of neutralise mountains its that they have top top riders as domestics, no other team seems to have as many riders come the business end the a hilly stage as sky and this os more down to how they have built their team and having the budget to do so rather than because they have power meters

DeVlaeminck

Yes they should be banned from professional races - they have the potential to make the race more controlled - more controlled means less exciting. If nothing else they take away the skill of being able to pace yourself.

Pross

Pointless, most pros would be able to tell within a few watts how much power they are putting out at any time. If anything it could make riders even more conservative.

Pross

Oh, and Froome isn't looking at his power meter. It's just his riding style. There are old photos of him riding like that without having a power meter on his bike.

mfin

We've had threads like this before

tailwindhome

The 'problem' in this race is that Froome has won in conditions of chaos too.

RichN95.

Sky spend weeks on a volcano training to this. Taking away their power meters won't make a jot of difference. Teams have been riding like this for as long as I've been alive.

Lanterne_Rogue

I don't think it would change much, and doubt it's actually used as much within the peloton as people say it is (if you're knocking out x watts, can't do more, and are going backwards, what on earth are you going to do about it?). My guess is that they mostly use it in races because the data is useful for informing training effort.

I'd assume most riders use power meters in every race by now - especially if they're so powerful that they can destroy racing - but we still see people trying to attack Froome and failing. If the power meter data really said it's pointless to attack they wouldn't bother. That alone suggests that it can't be the power meters that dictate whether attacks are possible or not.

jscl

You know many pro's choose not to have their power stats on their head units whilst racing, right? Some even cover them up with tape, esp when using PowerControl head units (SRM). It makes no difference if they do or they don't.

Most only use it for post-race analytics. It's a more useful factor in training than racing.

DeVlaeminck

Pros do use power meters to control effort and I really doubt that anyone can measure their effort on changing gradients to within a few watts. Of course they aren't the most important factor in a team being able to control a race but they make some small contribution and they add absolutely nothing in terms of making the race a spectacle - they may not make a huge difference but any difference they do make is in the negative column. Yet to see an argument for keeping them that stands up to scrutiny.

bianchi_dave

I'm not knocking Froome or Sky at all, just using this years Tour as an example. I also appreciate in recent (read cleaner) years, that exciting solo attacks in GTs are rarer, but (to me least) the power meters are too much of an assistance to individuals and an even greater advantage to the dominant GT teams, be it Tinkoff, Astana or Sky.
There is no doubt Sky have by far the best climbing team in this tour and that without meters they would probably still dominate, but why give them an even greater advantage? Yes, it can be argued it is a level playing field (everyone has a power meter) but when you have a such a good squad of domestiques knowing exactly how much power they need to put through the pedals and for how long, it does make it incredibly difficult for others to attack. I think I'd just like to see them (all riders) rely more on race craft or skill, as was said earlier.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Teams have been riding like this for as long as I've been alive.

This.

Pross

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Pros do use power meters to control effort and I really doubt that anyone can measure their effort on changing gradients to within a few watts. Of course they aren't the most important factor in a team being able to control a race but they make some small contribution and they add absolutely nothing in terms of making the race a spectacle - they may not make a huge difference but any difference they do make is in the negative column. Yet to see an argument for keeping them that stands up to scrutiny.

I think you're wrong regarding the ability to gauge effort without one. They train for hours at a time over months using wattage and muscle memory will allow them to then run on feel. I know it's slightly different but runners work to a pace per mile generally and I work with a decent amateur club level runner who can run within a second or two of his pace without using a watch. If it really came down to a crunch on the final stage where your main rival has ridden away and is about to go into the virtual lead I doubt many, if any, riders would look at their PM and think 'no, I'm already at 400w so I'm not going any harder'. I don't think there needs to be an argument for keeping them, the whole thought that they lead to negative racing is a red herring. As said above, many riders cover the power reading up in a race anyway.

RichN95.

I play hockey as a goalkeeper. I don't have to keep looking behind me to see where the goal is. Years of experience tell me where it is. It's the same with power. Riders know to a relatively high accuracy their power without looking. I suspect they prefer heart rate as a guide anyway.

DeVlaeminck

Well the fact remains that teams do use power meters to gauge effort - maybe they are wasting their time doing it but so long as they think they are a useful tool for that purpose I would go with the likelihood that they are indeed a useful tool for that purpose. As for your example of a rider letting a rival get a gap temporarily rather than stick on his wheel by going into the red - isn't that how Wiggins won the Tour ?

As for riders covering them up - yeah sure there may be riders who have done it but it's a bit of a stretch to believe that riders routinely cover up the reading of their power meter.

It's as Bianchi Dave says - the strongest teams will always be able to exert a level of control on the race but why make it easier for them than it has to be - power meters do make it a little bit easier - that is why they use them.

bobmcstuff

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Teams have been riding like this for as long as I've been alive.

This.

Did the USPS mountain train have power meters?

v2p

Bianchi Dave wrote:

I'm not knocking Froome or Sky at all, just using this years Tour as an example. I also appreciate in recent (read cleaner) years, that exciting solo attacks in GTs are rarer, but (to me least) the power meters are too much of an assistance to individuals and an even greater advantage to the dominant GT teams, be it Tinkoff, Astana or Sky.
There is no doubt Sky have by far the best climbing team in this tour and that without meters they would probably still dominate, but why give them an even greater advantage? Yes, it can be argued it is a level playing field (everyone has a power meter) but when you have a such a good squad of domestiques knowing exactly how much power they need to put through the pedals and for how long, it does make it incredibly difficult for others to attack. I think I'd just like to see them (all riders) rely more on race craft or skill, as was said earlier.

I think this might be a grass is always greener thing. We've seen tours without advanced power meter tactics that were still 'boring'. We've seen how even in this age of power meters Quitana can still drop everyone even Froome on a mountaintop finish and make for an exciting stage. We've seen how Contador or Schleck can jump with several mountains still to go in the stage and completely change the race. We've seen how Sky's tactics can completely fail if Froome forgets his lunchbox up Alp d'Heuz.

The beauty of cycling is that there are so many intertwined facets to it. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what effects power meters have and explicitly say well if we got rid of power meters this wouldn't happen, nor would this or this, and instead this would happen. Without power meters the racing would just be different. Not necessarily bound to make the cycling more fun or entertaining, just different.

And actually Froome and Sky this year have done a lot of race craft and skill that have made for a cracking tour.

RichN95.

Earlier in the Tour, Iain of this forum tweeted a quote from a book: They developed the role of team racing to the point of stifling competition

Sky? US Postal? Banesto? No it was written in the 70s about Merckx's Molteni team.

Henri Desgrange introduced National teams when he felt the Alcyon team was too dominant. That was in 1929.

adr82

RichN95 wrote:

Earlier in the Tour, Iain of this forum tweeted a quote from a book: They developed the role of team racing to the point of stifling competition

Sky? US Postal? Banesto? No it was written in the 70s about Merckx's Molteni team.

Henri Desgrange introduced National teams when he felt the Alcyon team was too dominant. That was in 1929.

Clearly the solution to all this is simply to ban teams!

wallace_and_gromit

Don't pro teams primarily use power meters as they are paid to do so by the manufacturers to convince Weekend Warriors to go out and buy such a device?

I agree with the posts above suggesting that pros can pace themselves very accurately without a power meter. "Feel" and a cheap HRM are all you need and at a push, the HRM could be binned.

Richmond Racer 2

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Don't pro teams primarily use power meters as they are paid to do so by the manufacturers to convince Weekend Warriors to go out and buy such a device?

I agree with the posts above suggesting that pros can pace themselves very accurately without a power meter. "Feel" and a cheap HRM are all you need and at a push, the HRM could be binned.

Nah. As more and more pros wake up to the fact that, oh, hello, proper coaching can actually help, power meters are essential for uploading and sending in your training files to your coach for tracking & evaluation.

And the bad news for the ban-power-meters-and-racing-will-be-just-how-I-see-it-through-my-rose-tinted-glasses-brigade, there have been enough noises that the UCI & CADF are considering creating a type of power bio passport. And what would all pros need? Power meters...

larkim

Cav said when he was dropped and coming back in the Pyrenees that he worked to a very precise W/kg output to let him get back in one piece. I presume on that occasion he was getting the info from his meter at the very least?

rick_chasey

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Don't pro teams primarily use power meters as they are paid to do so by the manufacturers to convince Weekend Warriors to go out and buy such a device?

I agree with the posts above suggesting that pros can pace themselves very accurately without a power meter. "Feel" and a cheap HRM are all you need and at a push, the HRM could be binned.

Nah. As more and more pros wake up to the fact that, oh, hello, proper coaching can actually help, power meters are essential for uploading and sending in your training files to your coach for tracking & evaluation.

And the bad news for the ban-power-meters-and-racing-will-be-just-how-I-see-it-through-my-rose-tinted-glasses-brigade, there have been enough noises that the UCI & CADF are considering creating a type of power bio passport. And what would all pros need? Power meters...

I think the banners just want the displays to be removed no?

FWIW Cancellara never rides Flanders or Roubaix with a power meter because, to quote "for those races it doesn't matter" I.e. they're not training.

If anyone's ridden a bike in a group you'll know how it feels to ride at a given threshold. It's not difficult.

The difference is now there is a quantifiable number so riders can now speak in more specific terms, but ultimately you can always feel in your legs how hard or not you are going.

DeVlaeminck

You make a good point that if the UCI are planning on using power data for a constructive purpose then that is a tick in the keep them column - it's actually the only reason to keep them made so far that stands up to scrutiny.

I don't think anyone has anything personal against power meters (I'm about to buy one myself !) they are just looking at ways to open up space for riders to profit by aggressive racing. Power meters are certainly less important than team numbers and radios in that sense.

ddraver

RichN95 wrote:

Earlier in the Tour, Iain of this forum tweeted a quote from a book: They developed the role of team racing to the point of stifling competition

Sky? US Postal? Banesto? No it was written in the 70s about Merckx's Molteni team.

Henri Desgrange introduced National teams when he felt the Alcyon team was too dominant. That was in 1929.

That, plus we considered ourselves extremely fortunate if we could catch an hour of highlights a week which had had all the dull bits removed.

If you re complaing about yesterday's stage being boring yet you sat through the whole broadcast of the whole stage then you ve only really got yourselves to blame.

coopster_the_1st

From his years of being on the Sky team Porte must know the intimate details of what power Sky ride their tactics to, what Froome can do etc and I suspect this works against him as well as they know his details.

I think banning power meters would mean the weaker riders stay on a group for longer before they blow, thus creating bigger time differences rather than them riding to what they know know they can sustain and finishing in their best time possible.

Personally I would like the power meter data to go the other way and for it to be available for all to see, including TV viewers. That would make the race more interesting from a data view and may influence the tactics of others more

yorkshireraw

where's all the evidence that Sky (or anyone else) ride 'to power' when racing?

AFAIK there is a single quote from Wiggins during 2012 TDF, where someone jumped away on a climb (can't recall who it was now) and Mick Rogers said to Wiggins 'don't worry, we're doing 400W already, he's going nowhere' or words to that effect - and even that suggests MR checked the output at that point, rather than slavishly sitting there staring at the PM all the way up the climb.
Since that time this idea of riding to the PM output seems to have taken hold, without any further evidence that's the case (when racing).

As has been said above, what they do is ride bl00dy hard to stifle the ability of anyone to jump away, and to wear out the team support of the other contenders. And it's easier to do this when you have GT podium guys and LBL winners among your domestiques.

If anything, Froome with his sudden accelerations and comical looking (but effective) 100rpm+ spinning attacks would go against the idea of riding to a certain power and measuring the effort - those attacks will be costly in terms of energy and effort.

I can also agree with the running analogy with regards knowing your pace at a certain effort.

keef66

bobmcstuff wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Teams have been riding like this for as long as I've been alive.

This.

Did the USPS mountain train have power meters?

No, but they had other 'technology'

bianchi_dave

A lot of good points (as usual) and a few things I didn't know - like the UCI looking at a 'power passport' which would obviously require the meters. However, surely they could still obtain the data but not allow the rider to see what wattage they were putting out.
I'm all for these devices being used in training and they will help massively, particularly when teams are selecting their squads for a given race and all the data is at hand. I just worry that in races, some riders decide not to attack for the same reasons a dominant team know they don't 'need' to chase them down. I think if the power data was provided 'live' and thus available to the DSs, it could stifle things even more, as riders would then KNOW how their rivals were doing (in relation to their average power stats), rather than relying on subtle or otherwise 'tells' as they do at present. I appreciate that changing time gaps provides much the same the thing though.
As I said, I'm not criticising Sky or Froome, it would just be interesting to see a big GT climbing stage with no power meters, especially in the clean(er) age. I've really enjoyed this years Tour so far and looking forward to the Alps.