Nice attacks

bikes`n`guns

Will this ever stop ?

60 plus dead after trucks ram crowds and kill dozens. Shooting involved as well.

mr_goo

Tragic. 73+ now confirmed dead, including children.
I'm lost for words really. France which I love as a country is really copping it with terrorist attacks. Why?
Prayers and thoughts to all those that have been affected by yet another terrible chapter in 21st century Europe.

Daz555

Makes you fear for what is surely going to happen on these shores before long.

Daz555

Mr Goo wrote:

Tragic. 73+ now confirmed dead, including children.
I'm lost for words really. France which I love as a country is really copping it with terrorist attacks. Why?
Prayers and thoughts to all those that have been affected by yet another terrible chapter in 21st century Europe.

IF it is confirmed to be ISIS then it is probably safe to assume it is retaliation for France's bombing campaign against ISIS and their perception that France is anti-muslim.

Tragic times.

ugo.santalucia

Bikes`n`guns wrote:

Will this ever stop ?

60 plus dead after trucks ram crowds and kill dozens. Shooting involved as well.

It won't... the more the world becomes a global place, the more terrorism will be used as a weapon. The only way to address terrorism is education + readdressing inequalities in society... it takes a generation but it's the only way forward.

The thing is this specific terrorism has been around for well over a generation, began in Israel and then spread to the western world. Today's terrorists were kids at the time of 9/11 and maybe things would be different if the western wrold had reacted differently at the time. In essence the answer was an eye for an eye, which over the past 2 millenia has proven not to be a solution if you seek peace as a way of living. Missed opportunity

mr_goo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Bikes`n`guns wrote:

Will this ever stop ?

60 plus dead after trucks ram crowds and kill dozens. Shooting involved as well.

It won't... the more the world becomes a global place, the more terrorism will be used as a weapon. The only way to address terrorism is education + readdressing inequalities in society... it takes a generation but it's the only way forward.

The thing is this specific terrorism has been around for well over a generation, began in Israel and then spread to the western world. Today's terrorists were kids at the time of 9/11 and maybe things would be different if the western wrold had reacted differently at the time. In essence the answer was an eye for an eye, which over the past 2 millenia has proven not to be a solution if you seek peace as a way of living. Missed opportunity

Not sure about the education aspect. Many of the senior operatives in IS are ex officers from Saddams army. And quite a few of these terrorists that have joined IS are university educated.

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

Ben6899

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

My mate's wife is pregnant. They're devout Muslims.

Should they not bring up their child as [devout] Muslim? And how are we going to encourage them not to do so? "So he doesn't become a terrorist, mate"?

Just playing Devil's advocate.

mr_goo

Ben6899 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

My mate's wife is pregnant. They're devout Muslims.

Should they not bring up their child as [devout] Muslim? And how are we going to encourage them not to do so? "So he doesn't become a terrorist, mate"?

Just playing Devil's advocate.

I'm not singling out Islam on this. ALL religions have had there time. Religion was a construct to control the masses who were uneducated. This is the 21st century. Time to move on and ditch the holy texts which are nothing but tall tales.

If Marvel comics had been written in the 2nd or 3rd century Christians would all be worshipping a masked teenage web slinger and muslims be saying all praise to The Incredible Hulk?

Religion is utter utter nonsense. Tell your friends to get with the modern world and ditch the indoctrinated tripe.

ugo.santalucia

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

By education I don't mean maths, I mean understanding the bigger picture... but wealth distribution is paramount too and that is not happening in the western world

Religion is blamed for the wrong reasons... Islam does not preach hate, in the same way as Christianesim did not teach hate, yet it was used to justify mass murder. True Islam believers are among the most tolerant people on Earth... Anything can be misinterpreted... people read Nietzsche as an endorsement to national socialism... should we ban Nietzsche? or maybe Beethoven or Darwin?

ugo.santalucia

Mr Goo wrote:

Religion is utter utter nonsense. Tell your friends to get with the modern world and ditch the indoctrinated tripe.

If the world was a place where everyone has equal opportunities, religion would be redundant... but even there, how do you get to accept death? How do you explain the existence of matter or a universe?

If your world ends when your salary rolls in, then it is a very small world indeed

ugo.santalucia

oxoman wrote:

The fact is 80 plus men women and children dead scores injured. The reasons why are mentioned above in various ways, mans inability to get on together and an innate ability to twist religion to say what they want it to. It's sad and I fear for my children and future generations, what can I do apart from be more tolerant of others. We can debate till the cows come home sadly alot of people won't be returning home ever again.

The practical thing is to avoid big cities, gatherings, airports and big stations as much as you can... but of course you play the terrorists game... however, the benefit is that politics will realise that and maybe act in a different way (or maybe not)

Ben6899

Mr Goo wrote:

Tell your friends to get with the modern world and ditch the indoctrinated tripe.

Should I use these words exactly?

DeVlaeminck

Ben6899 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

My mate's wife is pregnant. They're devout Muslims.

Should they not bring up their child as [devout] Muslim? And how are we going to encourage them not to do so? "So he doesn't become a terrorist, mate"?

Just playing Devil's advocate.

They should have a perfect right to do so but yes I would say if they do that is a bad thing. Why would you bring a child up to be a devout anything.

mrb123

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

By education I don't mean maths, I mean understanding the bigger picture... but wealth distribution is paramount too and that is not happening in the western world

Religion is blamed for the wrong reasons... Islam does not preach hate, in the same way as Christianesim did not teach hate, yet it was used to justify mass murder. True Islam believers are among the most tolerant people on Earth... Anything can be misinterpreted... people read Nietzsche as an endorsement to national socialism... should we ban Nietzsche? or maybe Beethoven or Darwin?

Hmm, not sure there's much correlation between the most Islamic countries and the most tolerant. Places like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan don't immediately strike me as bastions of tolerance.

finchy

Ben6899 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Tell your friends to get with the modern world and ditch the indoctrinated tripe.

Should I use these words exactly?

You could start off by informing them about the dangers of circumcision, if they have a boy. Just a little move away from literalism and religious conservatism might be useful, even if they still believe in Allah.

finchy

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

My mate's wife is pregnant. They're devout Muslims.

Should they not bring up their child as [devout] Muslim? And how are we going to encourage them not to do so? "So he doesn't become a terrorist, mate"?

Just playing Devil's advocate.

They should have a perfect right to do so but yes I would say if they do that is a bad thing. Why would you bring a child up to be a devout anything.

If you believed there's a heaven and a hell, and only devout followers of religion X will avoid burning for all eternity, wouldn't you bring your child up to be religious?

Ben6899

finchy wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Tell your friends to get with the modern world and ditch the indoctrinated tripe.

Should I use these words exactly?

You could start off by informing them about the dangers of circumcision, if they have a boy. Just a little move away from literalism and religious conservatism might be useful, even if they still believe in Allah.

It's none of my business.

mr_goo

Ben6899 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Tell your friends to get with the modern world and ditch the indoctrinated tripe.

Should I use these words exactly?

Your call.

mr_goo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

By education I don't mean maths, I mean understanding the bigger picture... but wealth distribution is paramount too and that is not happening in the western world

Religion is blamed for the wrong reasons... Islam does not preach hate, in the same way as Christianesim did not teach hate, yet it was used to justify mass murder. True Islam believers are among the most tolerant people on Earth... Anything can be misinterpreted... people read Nietzsche as an endorsement to national socialism... should we ban Nietzsche? or maybe Beethoven or Darwin?

In the main the modern practicing Christian reads from the New Testament. All Muslims follow the words of the Koran which was written at similar time to Old Testament and therefore still contains 100s off passages of intolerance and hate to non believers. There in lies the problem with Islam and the modern world.

As for equality for humanity. If only.
The gulf between the haves and have not in western society has become a chasm that cannot be crossed. And I beleven that in part this was some of the thiking behind the Bremit vote.
In the middle east one has appalling conditions for migrant workers that could be compared to the slave labour of ancient Egypt.
Africa is just a basket case of tribalism. And
China continually flexes it's steroid injected muscles and nobody dares to challenge them.

What a damned world.

slowbike

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

My mate's wife is pregnant. They're devout Muslims.

Should they not bring up their child as [devout] Muslim? And how are we going to encourage them not to do so? "So he doesn't become a terrorist, mate"?

Just playing Devil's advocate.

They should have a perfect right to do so but yes I would say if they do that is a bad thing. Why would you bring a child up to be a devout anything.

Because some people believe beyond all doubt. I know someone who had to have their child baptised at the earliest opportunity (so days old) because "God" wouldn't accept the child if she died beforehand. Complete and utter tripe that makes no sense if you believe in what else they say about "God" - being forgiving etc etc ... why on earth would a baby be rejected just because it wasn't baptised?
And this is from a well educated family - fortunately, getting baptised is completely harmless and from what we've seen the other practices they undertake are equally harmless - but you can see how easy it is to indoctrinate even well educated people.

The Nice attack is just appauling and I'm not too proud to say that I'm almost in tears for the families, epsecially the children that have become victims.
I don't pretend to know the answer to this - but we do need to try to stop it - not for us, but for our children.

finchy

Ben6899 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Tell your friends to get with the modern world and ditch the indoctrinated tripe.

Should I use these words exactly?

You could start off by informing them about the dangers of circumcision, if they have a boy. Just a little move away from literalism and religious conservatism might be useful, even if they still believe in Allah.

It's none of my business.

I wouldn't be able to take that sort of attitude. Not where children are concerned. Obviously I wouldn't kidnap the child or anything to stop it happening, but I have spoken to Jewish and Muslim friends about the dangers of circumcision in the past. Sadly, the Jewish ones agreed with me that it's dangerous nonsense, but they feared social ostracism more than they feared damaging their child.

surrey_commuter

Mr Goo wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

By education I don't mean maths, I mean understanding the bigger picture... but wealth distribution is paramount too and that is not happening in the western world

Religion is blamed for the wrong reasons... Islam does not preach hate, in the same way as Christianesim did not teach hate, yet it was used to justify mass murder. True Islam believers are among the most tolerant people on Earth... Anything can be misinterpreted... people read Nietzsche as an endorsement to national socialism... should we ban Nietzsche? or maybe Beethoven or Darwin?

In the main the modern practicing Christian reads from the New Testament. All Muslims follow the words of the Koran which was written at similar time to Old Testament and therefore still contains 100s off passages of intolerance and hate to non believers. There in lies the problem with Islam and the modern world.

As for equality for humanity. If only.
The gulf between the haves and have not in western society has become a chasm that cannot be crossed. And I beleven that in part this was some of the thiking behind the Bremit vote.
In the middle east one has appalling conditions for migrant workers that could be compared to the slave labour of ancient Egypt.
Africa is just a basket case of tribalism. And
China continually flexes it's steroid injected muscles and nobody dares to challenge them.

What a damned world.

I don't get the China comment

Ben6899

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

By education I don't mean maths, I mean understanding the bigger picture... but wealth distribution is paramount too and that is not happening in the western world

Religion is blamed for the wrong reasons... Islam does not preach hate, in the same way as Christianesim did not teach hate, yet it was used to justify mass murder. True Islam believers are among the most tolerant people on Earth... Anything can be misinterpreted... people read Nietzsche as an endorsement to national socialism... should we ban Nietzsche? or maybe Beethoven or Darwin?

In the main the modern practicing Christian reads from the New Testament. All Muslims follow the words of the Koran which was written at similar time to Old Testament and therefore still contains 100s off passages of intolerance and hate to non believers. There in lies the problem with Islam and the modern world.

As for equality for humanity. If only.
The gulf between the haves and have not in western society has become a chasm that cannot be crossed. And I beleven that in part this was some of the thiking behind the Bremit vote.
In the middle east one has appalling conditions for migrant workers that could be compared to the slave labour of ancient Egypt.
Africa is just a basket case of tribalism. And
China continually flexes it's steroid injected muscles and nobody dares to challenge them.

What a damned world.

I don't get the China comment

Anyone cycnical might think it's just an opportunity for a dig.

mr_goo

Ben6899 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The only thing I would say is that it needs successive generations disown all forms of any religious belief. Only then will humanity truly advance.

By education I don't mean maths, I mean understanding the bigger picture... but wealth distribution is paramount too and that is not happening in the western world

Religion is blamed for the wrong reasons... Islam does not preach hate, in the same way as Christianesim did not teach hate, yet it was used to justify mass murder. True Islam believers are among the most tolerant people on Earth... Anything can be misinterpreted... people read Nietzsche as an endorsement to national socialism... should we ban Nietzsche? or maybe Beethoven or Darwin?

In the main the modern practicing Christian reads from the New Testament. All Muslims follow the words of the Koran which was written at similar time to Old Testament and therefore still contains 100s off passages of intolerance and hate to non believers. There in lies the problem with Islam and the modern world.

As for equality for humanity. If only.
The gulf between the haves and have not in western society has become a chasm that cannot be crossed. And I beleven that in part this was some of the thiking behind the Bremit vote.
In the middle east one has appalling conditions for migrant workers that could be compared to the slave labour of ancient Egypt.
Africa is just a basket case of tribalism. And
China continually flexes it's steroid injected muscles and nobody dares to challenge them.

What a damned world.

I don't get the China comment

Anyone cycnical might think it's just an opportunity for a dig.

I mention China as I was trying to balance out the globe. Their heirachy are quite intolerant and still cling to a communistic system yet are acquiring incredible wealth and influence. Plus their human rights are appalling.

orraloon

Mr Goo wrote:

In the main the modern practicing Christian reads from the New Testament. All Muslims follow the words of the Koran which was written at similar time to Old Testament and therefore still contains 100s off passages of intolerance and hate to non believers. There in lies the problem with Islam...

Bzzt. While not OT, factual error should not stand unchallenged.

Koran held to have been revealed in stages between 609-632 CE (AD) while Old Testament dates are debated but range from 8th- 1st century BC, with possibility of small adds in 1st century AD. So anything from 1,000-500 years out there.

Close pedant mode.

mamba80

i'm not sure banging on about Christianity and Islam is adding anything of any value to this tragedy, the guy was a petty criminal, led along by IS perhaps.

People have been killing each other in murderous rages since time began, we might hide behind religion but even in the highly unlikely outcome it disappeared, we d still be killing our fellow human beings, we d just invent another excuse.

Brings home how easy it is to murder, no guns or explosives needed, just a crowd and a lorry - no defence against this anywhere is there.

Horrific for those caught up in this terrible attack.

ugo.santalucia

Mr Goo wrote:

I mention China as I was trying to balance out the globe. Their heirachy are quite intolerant and still cling to a communistic system yet are acquiring incredible wealth and influence. Plus their human rights are appalling.

I have a colleague who travels to China a lot, has held some visiting positions there and he totally loves it... the culture, the people, the attitude towards foreign cultures, the fact that people in science are respected and rewarded... he says it's difficult to check your gmail account, but otherwise everything is better in his opinion. He is trying to find something permanent there

Horses for courses

mr_goo

I'm not going to draw on any more comparisons or discuss other things regarding this tragedy.
At least 10 children killed. To have gone out as a family to enjoy an evenings celebrations and to be torn apart in this most horrendous act.

surrey_commuter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I mention China as I was trying to balance out the globe. Their heirachy are quite intolerant and still cling to a communistic system yet are acquiring incredible wealth and influence. Plus their human rights are appalling.

I have a colleague who travels to China a lot, has held some visiting positions there and he totally loves it... the culture, the people, the attitude towards foreign cultures, the fact that people in science are respected and rewarded... he says it's difficult to check your gmail account, but otherwise everything is better in his opinion. He is trying to find something permanent there

Horses for courses

China has a massively growing middle class. The govt has addressed the issue of corruption to such an extent that luxury goods companies are suffering from a kick back against ostentatious wealth.

I would agree that to many westerners their way of addressing this is pretty draconian. Still I know a lot of French people who this morning do not want to see #love #allinittogether and would rather see a Chinese disproportionate response.

ugo.santalucia

it's easy to blame religion and fanatism, but they are just symptoms of a much bigger problem and unelss the latter is addressed, nothing will change. It's time to face the reality that ranking happyness by GDP and material possessions is not working

ugo.santalucia

Was struck by this image... that's a bulletproof windscreen... :shock: