Operacion Puerto : Guess who will retire till new year

2

Comments

  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    philbar72 wrote:
    so this also goes before the rise of the Spanish football team into world beaters. think 2008 was when they really started dominating the euro's and world cups. do we think that this in any way infers any form of drugs or doping, or were they just really good?

    I'm not a huge football nerd but they did have some of the best players in the world during that time too...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    Many will be disappointed but nada of any meaning will come from this

    Firstly, matching blood bags to names. Eufe knows but he's getting paid too much not to disclose

    Secondly, neither the AD agencies not WADA itself have any legal powers of enforcement

    Thirdly none of the above have the money to see these through, to...what end? If any of those agencies tested now, it's years outside the SoL - which crucially was 8 years limit at the time the bags were taken by the cops. 2016 is now 10 years later. Nothing would stand up in the way of prosecution, so why would WADA - already beleaguered on all sides inc the Russian business and multiple investigations connected to that - spend money they don't have on a process tgat will go on for years (with legal suits) that is unlikely to produce diddly?

    IMO WADA and the UCI appealed as a matter of principle rather than because they had any genuine hope they could do anything with the bags


    The time for something to be done was before the police handed over custody of the bags. Once they were out of police hands, the opportunity was gone
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    philbar72 wrote:
    so this also goes before the rise of the Spanish football team into world beaters. think 2008 was when they really started dominating the euro's and world cups. do we think that this in any way infers any form of drugs or doping, or were they just really good?

    also the cyclists on this list would have all retired with the exception of a few 35+year olds I'd suggest...
    Not really. Spain were the great underachievers in world football, frequently having great players but with a tendency to fall apart amid inter regional squabbling.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dish_dash
    dish_dash Posts: 5,642
    But.. but... it's a conspiracy! And I know for a FACT who doped anyway...

    Meh... I'd only be interested if this did look at some other sports, which it won't.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Yeah, you can't dope technique. Over the past 8 years they've had the most technically gifted players at their disposal.

    Saying that, Barca under Guardiola used to press and fitness was key. You can also look at the physical specimens players like Ronaldo and Bale have become at Real.

    I'm sure it's rife in football, they'd be silly not to, but at the end of the day technical ability wins out.
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    Course it does. Skills n all

    Plus the practioners of model morality, football teams, would never do anything that could even remotely considered cheating
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Richmond Racer 2 wrote:
    Course it does. Skills n all

    Plus the practioners of model morality, football teams, would never do anything that could even remotely considered cheating
    Sure. But I don't think it's the reason for Spain's change in fortunes. If they're doping I doubt they started in 2007.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    I'm not sure that any of the blood bags will be footballers anyway. Pretty sure they got 'lost' in the post.
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    Dinyull wrote:
    Yeah, you can't dope technique. Over the past 8 years they've had the most technically gifted players at their disposal.

    Saying that, Barca under Guardiola used to press and fitness was key. You can also look at the physical specimens players like Ronaldo and Bale have become at Real.

    I'm sure it's rife in football, they'd be silly not to, but at the end of the day technical ability wins out.

    No it doesn't. Regularly proven by such things as Leicester winning the PL, Greece winning the Euros even Italy beating Belgium last night. Talent will only ever win out if it's applied properly, otherwise hard work, organisation, coaching (call it what you like) will generally do very nicely indeed.
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  • josame
    josame Posts: 1,162
    mr_poll wrote:
    Do the blood bags correspond to anything that can be identifiable? Otherwise surely you have a bag of blood that contains a PED - great but if you cant link it so a high profile named sports star then it isn't much use - I guess WADA haven't DNA profiled all the previous samples to match with a couple dozen of bags.

    Dog names dude - not shiteing you - look it up, tis how they got Basso

    They have a coded list that goes with the bags - dna test linked to this list got Da Kaiser
    'Do not compare your bike to others, for always there will be greater and lesser bikes'
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    lostboysaint wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    Yeah, you can't dope technique. Over the past 8 years they've had the most technically gifted players at their disposal.

    Saying that, Barca under Guardiola used to press and fitness was key. You can also look at the physical specimens players like Ronaldo and Bale have become at Real.

    I'm sure it's rife in football, they'd be silly not to, but at the end of the day technical ability wins out.

    No it doesn't. Regularly proven by such things as Leicester winning the PL, Greece winning the Euros even Italy beating Belgium last night. Talent will only ever win out if it's applied properly, otherwise hard work, organisation, coaching (call it what you like) will generally do very nicely indeed.

    Using 2 absolute freak events doesn't help, but I do agree actually agree with you. But over time the cream rises to the top.
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    I don't need to use freak events like that. Have a look at the last title winning Manure side and work out how Fergie did it with that "talent". And on, and on and on. Feel free to consult with any properly qualified and successful coach and ask exactly what they look for in their athletes, not only will you get told that technique is a given but hard work is the most important but they'll give many, many examples of technically gifted athletes in a variety of sports who didn't make it because they couldn't/wouldn't work or thought they'd blag it with "talent".
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    josame wrote:
    mr_poll wrote:
    Do the blood bags correspond to anything that can be identifiable? Otherwise surely you have a bag of blood that contains a PED - great but if you cant link it so a high profile named sports star then it isn't much use - I guess WADA haven't DNA profiled all the previous samples to match with a couple dozen of bags.

    Dog names dude - not shiteing you - look it up, tis how they got Basso

    They have a coded list that goes with the bags - dna test linked to this list got Da Kaiser


    Yes, Cesar and Bruno should be dead simple
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    You've lost me (it doesn't take much tbf).

    I don't think I said hard work wasn't important, or coaching or work ethic etc etc.

    I was pointing out that you can't dope ability, Spain didn't have the best group of players over the past 10 years because of doping.
  • dish_dash
    dish_dash Posts: 5,642
    Dinyull wrote:
    Spain didn't have the best group of players over the past 10 years because of doping.

    Nah, they had it because they were in the EU... or was it the fall of fascism?
  • jimmythecuckoo
    jimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,716
    Did some of the retirees for the end of this season know this was coming perhaps?
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    jimmythecuckoo wrote:
    Did some of the retirees for the end of this season know this was coming perhaps?
    Aren't they just hanging around for the Olympics?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • epc06
    epc06 Posts: 216
    lostboysaint wrote:
    I don't need to use freak events like that. Have a look at the last title winning Manure side and work out how Fergie did it with that "talent". And on, and on and on. Feel free to consult with any properly qualified and successful coach and ask exactly what they look for in their athletes, not only will you get told that technique is a given but hard work is the most important but they'll give many, many examples of technically gifted athletes in a variety of sports who didn't make it because they couldn't/wouldn't work or thought they'd blag it with "talent".

    None of that would have been possible without the skills and telent of RVP throughout that season though
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    Not sure we need to side rack the thread with whether doping in football is relavant. If there was no need for it why did Zidane, one of the worlds best players at the time, dope ?

    I'd like to see a full list of Fuentes clients made public doubt that will ever happen. Real, Barca and a few other teams and sports were linked to this, with only cyclist names in the public domain it annoys me that no other sports have been tained by this and swept it under the carpet
  • Richmond Racer 2
    Richmond Racer 2 Posts: 4,698
    sherer wrote:
    Not sure we need to side rack the thread with whether doping in football is relavant. If there was no need for it why did Zidane, one of the worlds best players at the time, dope ?

    I'd like to see a full list of Fuentes clients made public doubt that will ever happen. Real, Barca and a few other teams and sports were linked to this, with only cyclist names in the public domain it annoys me that no other sports have been tained by this and swept it under the carpet



    It's only Fuentes who can name all names and it would then be his word against that of everyone he named. Plus....lawsuits galore
  • lyn1
    lyn1 Posts: 261
    Dinyull wrote:
    You've lost me (it doesn't take much tbf).

    I don't think I said hard work wasn't important, or coaching or work ethic etc etc.

    I was pointing out that you can't dope ability, Spain didn't have the best group of players over the past 10 years because of doping.

    Maybe not directly, but indirectly through countering fatigue. Skills break down under fatigue and pressure, as does the quality of decision making.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Dim seems to now be sure that Classicomano is Flecha.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Joelsim wrote:
    Dim seems to now be sure that Classicomano is Flecha.


    I thought he was sure it was Cancellara (at least that was his story years ago)

    You should stop reading anything from that quarter.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Yes he was, now his view has changed.

    Dim isn't one of the nutters, he's pretty balanced.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,648
    Joelsim wrote:
    Yes he was, now his view has changed.

    Dim isn't one of the nutters, he's pretty balanced.

    In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
    _
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Nah. As I said he is pretty realistic. He's not a patient.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Joelsim wrote:
    Yes he was, now his view has changed.

    Dim isn't one of the nutters, he's pretty balanced.
    He's still largely guessing though. The problem with trying to decipher these things is we tend to think only of stars rather than long forgetten domestiques
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ozzzyosborn206
    ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    lyn1 wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    You've lost me (it doesn't take much tbf).

    I don't think I said hard work wasn't important, or coaching or work ethic etc etc.

    I was pointing out that you can't dope ability, Spain didn't have the best group of players over the past 10 years because of doping.

    Maybe not directly, but indirectly through countering fatigue. Skills break down under fatigue and pressure, as does the quality of decision making.

    also the more you practice the more your skills and technique will improve, not to mention being able to jumper higher, run faster, fatigue slower. It annoyes me the way people seem to think tennis players and footballers doping wouldn't bring improvements. Imagine playing football against a team who are 5/10% sharper and fitter than you
  • argyllflyer
    argyllflyer Posts: 893
    Flecha would delight the Clinicians. Even if he didn't ride for SKY until a few years after that.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    argyllflyer wrote:
    Flecha would delight the Clinicians. Even if he didn't ride for SKY until a few years after that.

    Not sure. One of their faves is that Flecha could've spilled the beans on Leinders if he'd been asked. Clearly if this is the case he couldn't.

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