Athena or Potenza

ugo.santalucia

holiver wrote:

I hadn't heard of the Potenza groupset before, but having read about it and seen that it doesn't really offer anything that is functionally different to Athena, I would purchase the latter.

The chainset looks nice though.

You hit the nail on the head... basically year after year they come up with groupsets that don't offer anything over the previous, or even over the one (or two) higher up in the hierarchy. They have decided to focus on marginal gains... the 3 grams difference, the carbon bit here and there instead of doing what an engineering company should be doing = innovate.

That would be enough for many manufacturing companies, but Campagnolo made its fortune around unique designs and truly solid and innovative components.

I don't see it these days... how's skeleton innovative? How's Ultra torque innovative... I don't get what they are trying to do... it's the "fine dining" of the cycling world... pointless cosmetic upgrades to your food/components to make them prettier, more expensive, desirable by the collector and in essence give you less for your money

thegreatdivide

If you don't get it / don't like it then why do you keep coming onto Campagnolo threads and bang out the same tire old responses time and time again? You're like a stuck Record*.





*Not that your ever get a stuck Record because it's STLL made to last.

ugo.santalucia

thegreatdivide wrote:

If you don't get it / don't like it then why do you keep coming onto Campagnolo threads and bang out the same tire old responses time and time again? You're like a stuck Record*.
*Not that your ever get a stuck Record because it's STLL made to last.

Because on the internet people talk.
Being Italian I have an attachment to all things Campagnolo since the days when I could not afford Campagnolo and had to make do with Gipiemme, Modolo, Ofmega and Suntour, but I am also a pragmatic person and if Campagnolo doesn't innovate, then there is no point of them being on the market. I suspect the lure of the brand accounts for well over 50% of the sales. It wasn't always like this... people use to buy it because it was better. I'd love to have a chat with Valentino and ask him in which way the company is following the phylosophy of his father.

drlodge

I would go for Chorus...although Ultra Torque isn't perfect, its a lot easier to service than Power Torque. And if you want the 32T cassette, fit a Roadlink by Wolf Tooth Components. You also get Ultrashift with Chorus, multiple up/down shifts possible with one press.

BenderRodriguez

Campagnolo used to have one big advantage over Shimano, all their stuff was fully serviceable with readily available small parts. I Once even rebuilt a Nuuvo Record rear gear parallelogram using the little brass bushes and alloy rivets that came as spares for a few pence. I am still running some 1998 ergo levers that I have built numerous times and have even converted between 9 and 10 speed for the cost of a few quid. Now even Ergo levers only come as almost complete assemblies. Spares availability still seems to be a lot better than Shimano though.

DeVlaeminck

Yes I do think Campag might do well to build on that reputation as equipment that can be serviced by the enthusiast instead of going down the throw away and replace road. It doesn't help that they have started to gain a reputation for kit that requires specific tools in order to service it - I know it's a bit of a myth that you need a horrendously expensive chain tool if you run campag but it's still a myth that has probably put some people buying a campag groupset.

I've also lost track of what is compatible with what and the difference between UltraTorque and PowerTorque and whatever else they are calling stuff. If I were buying a Potenza chainset I'd have no idea if it was compatible with my Chorus groupset etc.

holiver

I bought Campag, as I liked the shape of the hoods and it was lighter than the comparative Shimano stuff. I guess there is a market for them being different to their rivals, but they have to move forward too. Where are Campag's disc brakes?

ugo.santalucia

holiver wrote:

I bought Campag, as I liked the shape of the hoods and it was lighter than the comparative Shimano stuff. I guess there is a market for them being different to their rivals, but they have to move forward too. Where are Campag's disc brakes?

They will come out once they are fully UCI compliant, Campagnolo only does stuff for racing. The prototypes look no different from any hydraulic system... I was hoping for some supa dupa calipers with this feature and that, but they look the same as the Shimano ones

cycleclinic

Camag have worked with magura. And there is only so much that can be done with a disc brake caliper which is why they all look the same. Theee is no money in making there components servicable like they used to be,. Shimano and sram realised that along time ago and it has not harmed them. We love in a throw away society campag are adapting to that. The potenza groupset is probably the start of a groupset line up change over the few years.

Athena might stay as ailver only. Veloce might evolve into 11 speed at the top end one of the groups has to go. I think the disc brakes will make an apperance with the potenza group. The mtb market is not that big compared to road market and trying to make inroads in that would be hard as shimano have disc brakes sewn up. The only inovation left is with things like sram eagle which is pointless for most.

If campag want to mive into the mtb cx market they would have to create a wheel standard that would allow 12 speed cassettes and develop a 1x12 drivetrain with more sensible jumps. This would them to lead a change rather than react to it. Infact the standards exist jn the 150mm spaced triangles about at the moment it just needs to be exploited.

Anyway what campagnolo does well are wheels amd this is where the money is for them.

DeVlaeminck

You may be right that there is no value in making their stuff more suited to the home mechanic or repairable rather than replaceable but just because SRAM and Shimano haven't gone down that route doesn't mean that it isn't an option. Playing Devil's advocate but it would differentiate them from the opposition which in turn might help them command a premium for their products. It doesn't necessarily matter that most people may never strip and rebuild set of Ergos (though I bet a fair few of us on here have) but the knowledge that it's possible is a selling point - it gives the stuff an air of longevity and quality.

cycleclinic

Making the spares though and distributing them cost money and pushes up overal costs. As this market is very price sensitive it is dead end. Anyone who tries carrying lots of stock knows it has to shift quickly or there is little point.

secretsam

ugo.santalucia wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

I'd love to have a chat with Valentino and ask him in which way the company is following the philosophy of his father.

The challenge is that his father was an engineering genius, who innovated a huge amount on his own, but has now been overtaken by sheer scale and R&D.

I agree with you on Campanolo's need to come up with something "new": the Potenza group is the first new thing they've launched in years; how often do SRAM and (especially) Shimano release new stuff? And Shimano seem to have a 'trickle down' working really well with today's 105 being the DA of a few years ago, etc.

I've got boggo Campag on my road bike, and love the shift feel and lever shape compared to Shimano - and when I was a kid I so wanted Campag! But they need to get their act together. A tie up with FSA, etc would be sensible. As for Campagnolo Junior, there we see the problem with taking over from a genius father...

thegreatdivide

SecretSam wrote:

I agree with you on Campanolo's need to come up with something "new": the Potenza group is the first new thing they've launched in years; how often do SRAM and (especially) Shimano release new stuff? And Shimano seem to have a 'trickle down' working really well with today's 105 being the DA of a few years ago, etc.

Potenza is a Power Torque version of 2015/16 Chorus/R/SR group sets - so that's a 3 tier group set launch in 2015 followed by a more accessible group set launch in 2016 - that'll be the trickle down of technology. They also majorly revamped how EPS works at the end of 2015 via the My Campy App and the new control unit - which Shimano are possibly going to do on the new DA group set. So that makes the latter late to the game.

ugo.santalucia

SecretSam wrote:

I've got boggo Campag on my road bike, and love the shift feel and lever shape compared to Shimano - and when I was a kid I so wanted Campag! But they need to get their act together. A tie up with FSA, etc would be sensible. As for Campagnolo Junior, there we see the problem with taking over from a genius father...

They don't need to team up with anyone, IMO they just have to re-focus on what matters, be unique and make fewer groupsets which have a distinct target.
They need to have a top of the range supa dupa groupset with all the frills which needs to cost a couple of grand to make the billionaires of the cycling world happy.
The need a mid-high range groupset which is the best on the market and the best buy (some kind of Chorus) and they need a good quality affordable groupset like Veloce. So that's 3 race groupsets. That covers the market with no overlaps.

Then they need a groupset which is more versatile, something which you can run with discs or calipers, plug and play kind of hydro, single, double or triple chainset... build up the bike that fits your need with Campagnolo "Granturismo" or something like that, with compatibility in mind and that can be upgraded bit by bit. You run it with rim brakes this year, but next year you want to go discs, no problem, just replace the calipers, plug them in the levers and job done. They need to come out with a patent to plug the hydro line to the Ergo lever which is foolproof, that requires engineering effort. This could be an expensive groupset, but not expensive because you have a million carbon bits of no use, but because you have to pay for R & D and quality.

Will they think like that? Of course not, they will instead more likely add another identical groupset between Chorus and Record which is 20 grams lighter than Chorus and has a couple of italian flags on the levers... :roll:

cycleclinic

Campag have a patent that will allow the rim brake hydro compatability already. Essentially there patent put the resoviour innthe bars and it linked by a brake cable to the ergo's. So to change from rim brakes to disc brakes you change the bars. This is thenonly way to have this work without making the hoods huge. Look at how big shimano disc brake sti's are then imagine put a brake cable throught there as well.

secretsam

ugo.santalucia wrote:

SecretSam wrote:

Then they need a groupset which is more versatile, something which you can run with discs or calipers, plug and play kind of hydro, single, double or triple chainset... build up the bike that fits your need with Campagnolo "Granturismo" or something like that, with compatibility in mind and that can be upgraded bit by bit. You run it with rim brakes this year, but next year you want to go discs, no problem, just replace the calipers, plug them in the levers and job done. They need to come out with a patent to plug the hydro line to the Ergo lever which is foolproof, that requires engineering effort.

That's a very good idea.

But more than anything else, they need a mid-market offering to fight with 105. Veloce simply doesn't cut it. Something that cyclists like me DESIRE. Something different, cool and relatively affordable.

I still think they need a partner, for scale and R&D costs.

Campag have been here before: the introduction of the first DA with indexing in the mid-to-late-80s forced them to raise their game; they responded with the new C-Record, with Delta brakes (which admittedly didn't work too well) - and it was drop-dead gorgeous. They also came out with Victory and Triomphe groupsets, to counter the wave of Shimano groupsets.

At this point, I packed in cycling - so I missed all the fun stuff like STI being introduced, etc etc... :roll:

markwb79

Maybe their goal is to stay with 10% market share. Keep ticking along at that level.

g00se

holiver wrote:

I hadn't heard of the Potenza groupset before, but having read about it and seen that it doesn't really offer anything that is functionally different to Athena, I would purchase the latter.

The chainset looks nice though.

The chainsets are more DIY serviceable with Potenza though. The Athena Powertorque chainset needs more expensive tools to service.

Also worth considering is that Potenza uses the new pull ratios that current Chorus, Record and Super record use - so there is more upgrade potential if you want to go that way (whereas Athena will work with the pre-2015 11 speed stuff).

ugo.santalucia

Markwb79 wrote:

Maybe their goal is to stay with 10% market share. Keep ticking along at that level.

You can't keep market share selling only race groupsets and winning very few races, the appeal drops.
In the last 20 years Campagnolo won the Tour de France twice with Pantani and Nibali... Pereiro was never a winner. In the years between 1948 and 1995 they won the almost totality of them

thegreatdivide

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

Maybe their goal is to stay with 10% market share. Keep ticking along at that level.

You can't keep market share selling only race groupsets and winning very few races, the appeal drops.
In the last 20 years Campagnolo won the Tour de France twice with Pantani and Nibali... Pereiro was never a winner. In the years between 1948 and 1995 they won the almost totality of them

You're either trolling or you're just completely deluded, but I'll bite again...

In the last 6 years there have been 7 Grand Tours won on Campagnolo:

4 Giro
2 Vuelta
1 TDF

I can't be ar*ed to rack up the the one week races, the one day races, the Grand Tour stage wins, the Spring Classics and World Championships that have been won in the same time.

(Edit) There have been 12 stages ridden in this years Giro so far - 8 have been won by a rider using Campagnolo.

ugo.santalucia

thegreatdivide wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

Maybe their goal is to stay with 10% market share. Keep ticking along at that level.

You can't keep market share selling only race groupsets and winning very few races, the appeal drops.
In the last 20 years Campagnolo won the Tour de France twice with Pantani and Nibali... Pereiro was never a winner. In the years between 1948 and 1995 they won the almost totality of them

You're either trolling or you're just completely deluded, but I'll bite again...

In the last 6 years there have been 7 Grand Tours won on Campagnolo:

4 Giro
2 Vuelta
1 TDF

I can't be ar*ed to rack up the the one week races, the one day races, the Grand Tour stage wins, the Spring Classics and World Championships that have been won in the same time.

(Edit) There have been 12 stages ridden in this years Giro so far - 8 have been won by a rider using Campagnolo.

For non conosseurs, the Giro doesn't exist, the Vuelta is a race that doesn't matter anyway... for conosseurs Campagnolo needs no introduction. To increase or even just keep their market share, they need to be seen winning the Tour de France, which they have failed to do consistently over the past 20 years. If you look at Campagnolo sales, they go hand in hand with this result. It doesn't help that new players (ie not the usual two) are coming to the market with competitive groupsets and prices

EDIT: I am pretty sure that the revenue generated by the TdF trumps the combined revenue from the rest of the PRO Tour calendar, which in business terms means that winning the TdF trumps winning all the other races on the planet

cycleclinic

Campagnolo does not win the tour the rider/team does. Campag have just got to pick the right team which must be hard as the teams that win have deals already with shimano or SRAM who probably have bigger budgets. I doubt it matters much to the results which groupset a particular rider is actually using they all shift cogs rather well. Even veloce manages that. quite how anyone thinks 105 is way better is beyond me. If I move the paddle and I change gear reliably I am happy. Even better if it happens smoothly. All shimano and campag groupsets manage that but for everything to feel right it has to be the 105 range or up. with campag that feeling of it being right starts with the entry level stuff. Veloce does need to be revised though and I am sure it will be in 2017.

I think campagnolo' market is slightly different to shimano's or SRAM's. You don't find campag on entry level bikes but on mid range or higher. People forget anyway Campagnolo and fulcrum wheels are very popular and that is what makes them real money. the groupsets I suspect while an important part of the business are not overly important except to the image of the brand and nothing trashes the image of the brand buy trying to increase market share buy producing entry level cheapness. Most bike sold are not £2000 machines that is a small share of the market. If Campag where to increase market share they would have to produce a groupset like Claris or sora. Campagnolo also has fingers in other engineering and design pies. The income stream is varied that is a good business model.

As for the market being competative well it always has been and all companies go through a rise and fall cycle. Shimano was not always mighty one day there star will fade and it will be someone elses turn. that is the way of things.

thegreatdivide

Make that 5 Giro.

sloppyschleckonds

That rear mech looks a bit fugged

JoostG

All true, but I don't like the name Shimano, and don't like the looks of what they offer, so I will buy Campagnolo even if it's more expensive. Silly me.
Besides that, I've 5 bikes with Campa (Record, Chorus, Centaur, Mirage and Veloce) and the fact that I can swap wheel sets easily between those bikes is an huge advantage.

thegreatdivide

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

That rear mech looks a bit fugged

He still won and it's not like the other two have never had any technical issues.