Cannondale SuperSix Evo HM - rear chainstay tyre rub

new2br

Hi,
After recently dropping my back wheel out to give bike a good clean, I've discovered to my dismay that the tyre has been rubbing against the left/drive side rear stay - has rubbed through to a baked bean size oval in the carbon - ie through a layer of helitape and the painted coat - dont think its too deep into the carbon but not great all the same.

I have upgraded the wheel/tyre combo to 25c - I checked first and though thought it would be tight at 1.5-2mm clearance each side I though would be OK - but looks like I may have been wrong. (Wheels themselves are running straight and true so dont think redishing is necessary).

After goggled and read a few threads and surprised to find its not uncommon issue with rear stay/dropouts being out of alignment - which is sometimes covered under frame warranty. Also what is confusing it there is conflicting advice around as to what is/is not compatible even while my specific frame - 2013 SuperSix Evo High Mod, where some people point blank say 25c doesnt suit and some say they are running 25c with still plent of clearance?

Anyway was wondering if anyone can provide/point me to specific guidance on this - maybe a framestay/diagram with dimensions or manufactures statement on compatability (or personal experience of 2013 SuperSix Evo HM frame running 25c tyre). Also (unfortunately) the bike is second hand so doubt frame is would be covered under warranty as think the 'lifetime of original owner so assume I could not persue this as a warrenty claim (if it was alignment issue and not just that 25c tyre too big). Finally what clearance would you normally allow for wheel flex under high load - assuming it must me > 1.5-2mm clearance thay I currently have.

Any advice much appreciated...

jamin100

I had this with my Supersix Evo (non HM) I think it depends on the width of the tyres. I know for a fact that the Continental GP4000s are a tad wider than the schwalbe one's that came with the wheelset even though they are both marked as 25c

Like you I have rub on the inside of the chainstay but only after i switched to the GP4000s.

new2br

The bike came with the stock wheels - Mavic Kysrium elite with Ysion 23c. I put Mich Pro 4 25c on those wheels and cant say for sure thats when rubbing started. I got a set of 25mm wide carbon wheels and put new schwalbe one 25c on - they seem to have actual width of 26.5mm which is about 1mm narrow that the Mich on the narrow rim, so yes the Schwalbes seem to be closer to the 25c width.

Did you have to change back down to 23c or how bad is your rubbing. Have you ruled out any chainstay/dropout alignment issues or considered warrenty replacement?

src1

My friend has a 2013 Supersix Evo, I've got a 2015 Supersix Evo Hi-Mod Nano. He was having trouble with tyre clearance, upon comparison it was clear the 2015 frame has more tyre clearance than the 2013 frame. He's stuck with 23mm tyres, I'm fine with 25mm tyres on wide rims.

BTW - his 2013 frame was slightly out of alignement too.

jamin100

new2br wrote:

The bike came with the stock wheels - Mavic Kysrium elite with Ysion 23c. I put Mich Pro 4 25c on those wheels and cant say for sure thats when rubbing started. I got a set of 25mm wide carbon wheels and put new schwalbe one 25c on - they seem to have actual width of 26.5mm which is about 1mm narrow that the Mich on the narrow rim, so yes the Schwalbes seem to be closer to the 25c width.

Did you have to change back down to 23c or how bad is your rubbing. Have you ruled out any chainstay/dropout alignment issues or considered warrenty replacement?

I used the stock wheels with the GP4000s 25s once I changed back the the schwable ones that came with the bike (25c) the clearance got a bit bigger.

I've also changed to zondas with the schwable tyres and it's ok again.

I've put frame tape on both sides of the stays now to help if it starts rubbing again. I'll also be checking more frequently

teebs_123

Although a different manufacturer, I had a Scott Foil 20 replaced under warranty for exactly the same reasons. I had actually sold the frame to a friend without noticing the damage

Scott got back to us and said that the rear carbon drop-outs had worn away ever so slightly and caused the wheel to rub.

Both Evans and Epic Cycles said it wasn't a warranty claim, but Scott were very good and upgraded the frame to a Foil 10.

Monty Dog

Was the wheel QR tight enough? Not uncommon for wheels not to seat correctly, or loose QR causes the hub to fret the dropout rather than it being down to frame alignment. If you've eliminated the above, then get your dealer to check frame alignment - usually involving taking measurements to each drop-out from the middle of the headtube

dj58

new2br wrote:

The bike came with the stock wheels - Mavic Kysrium elite with Ysion 23c. I put Mich Pro 4 25c on those wheels and cant say for sure thats when rubbing started. I got a set of 25mm wide carbon wheels and put new schwalbe one 25c on - they seem to have actual width of 26.5mm which is about 1mm narrow that the Mich on the narrow rim, so yes the Schwalbes seem to be closer to the 25c width.

Did you have to change back down to 23c or how bad is your rubbing. Have you ruled out any chainstay/dropout alignment issues or considered warrenty replacement?

I think this could be part of the problem, I have read my times the BR road forums that Michelin Pro 4 tyres in 25c come up big, more like 27.5mm.

new2br

Thanks for all the replies, very helpful...

Yip I def don't think it's a loose QR, my wheel seats pretty well square (from what I can tell) with equal clearance on both sides. Funnily enough my mate who's on a new 2015 supersix evo (not HM) had a bit of issue with wheel not seating properly which was also down to QR adjustment, and yes he also says he's plenty of clearance when running his 25c setup so chainstay dimension must be wideron the newer models.

So I put the 23 tyre back on (rear only) and when for a decent test ride tonight and yip no sign of rubbing - so looks like I'll just have to toughen up and ditch the plan for running 25c which did seem to ride smoother than the 23s. Just out of curiosity is if a daft/ wierdo setup to leave the 25 in the front - was thinking might get a slight bit more comfort with less vibs up through the bars. Or is it a no no to have unmatched tyre profiles incase it upsets bike handling - it did feel a bit less planted when cornering at speed, but then again that might have been crosswinds on the deeper carbon wheels which I'm still getting used to.

vpnikolov

Michelin Pro 4s are known to be quite wide - when inflated their width is 28mm. Further to that, it is a 2013 Evo so I'd imagine it is a bit narrower at the back, hence it can't really fit a 25c tyre.

I bought my Evo less than a month ago and had clearance issues with the Pro 4s (25c) as well, but surprisingly the Yksion tyres that came with the bike are 25c and I don't have any issues with them. I'm putting Fulcrum Quattros with GP4000s II tonight and will report back on the clearance.

vpnikolov

So that I don't duplicate my comment, check out my last one here:

SuperSix Evo topic

germcevoy

new2br wrote:

Thanks for all the replies, very helpful...

Yip I def don't think it's a loose QR, my wheel seats pretty well square (from what I can tell) with equal clearance on both sides. Funnily enough my mate who's on a new 2015 supersix evo (not HM) had a bit of issue with wheel not seating properly which was also down to QR adjustment, and yes he also says he's plenty of clearance when running his 25c setup so chainstay dimension must be wideron the newer models.

So I put the 23 tyre back on (rear only) and when for a decent test ride tonight and yip no sign of rubbing - so looks like I'll just have to toughen up and ditch the plan for running 25c which did seem to ride smoother than the 23s. Just out of curiosity is if a daft/ wierdo setup to leave the 25 in the front - was thinking might get a slight bit more comfort with less vibs up through the bars. Or is it a no no to have unmatched tyre profiles incase it upsets bike handling - it did feel a bit less planted when cornering at speed, but then again that might have been crosswinds on the deeper carbon wheels which I'm still getting used to.

The Cnnondale pro team usually run a wider tyre at the front to that on the rear. Something to do with aerodynamics. I would stick with the same model of tyre though.

new2br

Had a read at that other supersix topic/ thread - which I'd missed before posting my own question...

Anyway some of the posters who know more about this bike than me mention that the high mod (2013) frame was unchanged until the 2016 model. So again confuses me as to how some guys are running 25c without issue, can understand the issue of mich pro 4 being notoriously wider than expected but the schwalbe ones I had are prob as neat as anything out there. I do have 1.5- 2mm clearance on drive side and prob 2-2.5 mm on other side ( when on the stand) so expected this wud be sufficient - so again what flex would be expected from a wheel under load.

Prob just me clutching at straws trying to find a reason to retry the 25c schwalbe but I thought maybe a lot of the rubbing was the 'whiskers' on the brand new tyre - I did note these just about flicked the chainstay on each rotation (which may indicate the amount of clearance I have) - enough to prompt me to install the helitape in that area for protection, but I never suspected that alone would be enough to go through the tape and paint to the carbon.

I SE another forum member mgwhitman who posted a pic of his SS high mod appears to have the identical bike to me - even the wheels and tyres are the same. Might try to PM him to check if his schwalbe ones are 23 or 25 and/or if he's had any rubbing/clearance issues- hope he won't mind...

AK_jnr

On my 2012 supersix no problem at the rear with 25's but mine could rub under the fork.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

I had the same, my wheel doesn't sit straight in the drop out, I have to align it by eye and then close it. According to Cannondale nothing wrong with it.

IE With the QR open and the bike upright apply pressure to the saddle and the sits in to the dropout much closer to one chainstay. Bikes been back to them and they still say no warranty claim..

bendertherobot

Mines like that. Will take some photos.

bendertherobot

Here's mine. Now, if manually centre it how I want it then tighten the QR I can get it to go centre (and indeed just have). But if I let it settle into the position IT wants to take it looks like this.

bendertherobot

bendertherobot

You can see some rub there. I'll monitor now that I've "straightened" it.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

Identical to mine! It cannot be right for ever and a day every bike I have had whenever I put a wheel back on I put it on the floor open the QR and "centre" the wheel. I am no powerhouse but the std wheels flexed out the saddle uphill's could hear the pads rub a bit but also must have been rubbing the stay. Bloody hassle repair punctures at night!, the rub is fecking annoying at best.

I think it is problem with the bike I rode it for ages thinking that's how it must be designed to sit, but it you put it on a stand and put the wheel in and pull back as you put it in it is centred. (this is all they did when sent it off) The via email suggested it must have been ridden with a loose QR.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

What model year is yours? Mines a 2014 Evo Red.

bendertherobot

2015 Ultegra

bendertherobot

I might take it into Evans next week and have a word.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

Try turning the bike upside down open the QR and wiggle the wheel left to right, and look at the non drive dropout, I bet you have loads of play that side compared to the hangar driveside.

bendertherobot

Fat-Boy-Roubaix wrote:

Try turning the bike upside down open the QR and wiggle the wheel left to right, and look at the non drive dropout, I bet you have loads of play that side compared to the hangar driveside.

I do, I centred it and did it up. Will do a video if I get a chance.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kllxiyolvi5a5 ... 4.mp4?dl=0

This is what I sent CSG, which is when they diagnosed "ridden with a loose QR" yet all the paint is in tact around the QR..

new2br

bendertherobot wrote:

Mines like that. Will take some photos.

Those pics are great - my clearance was something pretty similar, maybe a tad less. From the rub mark I can make out it seems thats maybe aligned to were the tyre 'whiskers' are constantly flicking/glancing the stay - which may not be quite so bad?

The play on fatboys vid is surprisingly a lot by look of it, I would have hoped the LBS/Cannondale would be a bit more helpful around a possible warranty claim as doesnt look right - must check mine out. Many posts I'd read before said how good Cannondale customer service was in regard to agreeing to replace frames at the slightest hint of quality control issue...

Anyway I ended up making a call to Westbrookes - who supplied my bike to get some sort of definitive answer and they say yes the frame wasnt designed for 25c (and larger) tyres as wasnt really the trend a few years ago so he recommended going back to 23c - but he did also say that the frame was unchanged til the 2016 model which does have wider chainstay. Maybe the non high mod models are slightly different - I'm heading out with mate tomorrow for a ride and he has a 2015 non HM so will be able to do a direct comparision, which I think I already know the outcome as he says hes def plenty of clearance with the same tyres I had on...

bendertherobot

Yeah, could well be the whiskers. But there is some play. Will try and do a video tomorrow of it.

bendertherobot

Westbrooks are talking rubbish btw. 2015 bikes ship with 25c tyres.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

CSG told me my Schwalbe One tubeless were 24.2mm and too wide anything over 23mm tyres void my warrnaty (2014) bike

Honestly Cannondale were the worst experience I have had. Unfortunately I had been off the bike for 9 months.

Likewise at no point did we need to forcibly ‘centralise’ the wheel returned with your bike in our investigations. Contrary to your assertions, as returned to us the wheel sat ‘naturally’ in the centre of the chain stays and seat stays when positioned in the dropouts. The size of the opening of the dropouts, even if different, will not have a bearing on final wheel position when seated. This is because the wheel axle sits in the apex (top) of the dropout during normal usage. As such dropouts are never ‘snug’ around them and there will always be gaps between the axle and the dropout it is in. Only the actual alignment of the dropouts with each other and the seat tube has bearing on the position your wheel eventually ‘rests’ on your bike. This was checked using two separate measurement systems and found to be spot on.

This was after seeing that video posted, all they kept going on about was why it had taken me 18 months. I genuinely recalled taking it off the stand when I first bought it putting on the floor opening the QR and seeing the wheel give that re-assuring clunk and it looked over one side and had clear recollection of thinking that's how it must be sit.

Also the problem because the bike & wheel want to sit like that when the bike is upright you have to do it up really tight to try and keep it there as your weight and the lumps and bumps the wheel want to return to that angled position.

bendertherobot

https://youtu.be/-q3q_huZ5gg

Drive side on mine, non drive much better. On mine I'd say the area is too big. I've moved the axle up from "bottoming out" to get it to sit directionally straight.

Will definitely have a word with Evans in the week.