The annual ***** rating for world T sprinters
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Posts: 3,418
at the moment WT - don't have to be WT teams (made a start )
who are the 5 star top dog generals Kittel
4 1/2 Kristoff
4 star happens on a good day Bouhanni Cavendish Viviani
3* could happen/couldn't happen Greipel Demarre Coquard
2 1/2 Nizzolo Ewan
2* I'm making the effort to be in the train Guardini Hofland Modolo
1* sometimes my non sprinting team mates beat me
who are the 5 star top dog generals Kittel
4 1/2 Kristoff
4 star happens on a good day Bouhanni Cavendish Viviani
3* could happen/couldn't happen Greipel Demarre Coquard
2 1/2 Nizzolo Ewan
2* I'm making the effort to be in the train Guardini Hofland Modolo
1* sometimes my non sprinting team mates beat me
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Comments
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Rick Chasey wrote:How do the wins stack up?
In my mind Viviani has won more then Cav.
yes - but in what races - and against whom0 -
Similar to Rich. Kittel is unstoppable if the roads are flat, if it starts getting rolling and hilly then that's where the 3 and 3 and a half star sprinters come into their own. I fully expect Viviani and Ewan and Gaviria to get 4* ratings next year.
Cav to get more fish and chip races, Greipel to get a tour stage this year and ride back into fitness at the Giro. Orica's problem is that Matthews and Gerrans have the same DNA... if its hilly who to pick , and both are too selfish to allow the other a chance at glory...
***** Kittel
**** Cavendish, Greipel
***.5 Viviani, Ewan
*** Bouhanni, Demare, Kristoff, Gaviria, Coquard, Nizzolo
** Degenkolb, Groenwegen, Matthews, Sagan, Gerrans
* Guardini, Modolo, Van Poppel, Boasson Hagen, Swift0 -
In the 5 stages of the 4 Days of Dunkirk (who knows?!) Coquard had 3 wins and 2 second places, and all were in front of Bouhanni. Coquard can have a bonus half * for not being an complete d.head as well.0
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Kittel 5
Greipel 4 assuming he can keep his form of recent years
Cav 4 but needs a Tour stage to keep that rating, 2 or more could put him back up there with Kitttel.
Bouhanni 3 Time to produce wins against the best sprinters
Gaviria 3 If he isn't a 4 by the end of the year it's been a poor season but you need the big wins first
Kristoff 3 Maybe a bit harsh On him with that
Viviani 3 Time to produce against big riders in big races
Demare 3 Maybe not such a pure sprinter
Coquard 3 Hard to rank him lower than Bouhanni when he's just beaten him easily
Ewan 3 Not as convinced about him as about Gaviria
Boasson Hagen 2
Sagan 2. Included im as he was probably a 3 a couple of years ago.
Swift 1 OK bit unfair don't think they've led him out for a sprint for a couple of years.
I'm still going with proven over potential - we see a lot of "next big things" in cycling who never quite live up to that. Cav really needs a decent year on the road or a lot will hang on the Olympics, if neither come off I do wonder where he goes next.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Interesting comparing Cav & Griepel's trajectory over the years.
Less than a Rio gold (for someone who hasn't secured his place) won't really satisfy him and this effort looks to have reduced his road rating markedly.0 -
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***** Kittel
**** Gaviria, Greipel
*** Cav, Ewan, Kristoff
** Bouhanni, Coquard, Degenkolb, Nizzolo, Viviani, Mareczko
* Everyone else inc Sagan0 -
Joelsim wrote:***** Kittel
**** Gaviria, Greipel
*** Cav, Ewan, Kristoff
** Bouhanni, Coquard, Degenkolb, Nizzolo, Viviani, Mareczko
* Everyone else inc Sagan
I knew it wouldn't be long before you turned up with all your Gaviria love.
I agree with Rick. No way Cav rates 4 stars at this point in his career.
Current sprinter wins table:-
1) Kittel 10 (3 WT)
2) Coquard 8 (0 WT)
3 )Kristoff 7 (0 WT)
4) Mareczko 5 (0 WT)
5) Bouhanni 4 (3 WT)
5) Guradini 4 (0 WT)
5) Petit 4 (0 WT)
8) Demare 3 (2 WT-1 Mon))
8) Matthews 3 (2 WT)
8) Ewan 3 (2 WT)
8) Gaviria 3 (1 WT)
8) Greipel 3 (0 WT)
8) Groenewegen 3 (0 WT)
8) Cavendish 3 (0 WT)
8) EBH 3 (0 WT)
16) Modolo 2 (0 WT)
16) Nizzolo 2 (0 WT)
16) Viviani 2 (0 WT)
Pick the bones out of that lot."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Why is Cav so high?
Legacy?
Because he's the only man to come within a whisker of beating Kittel this season? And on his day is always a step up on Greipel.
After seeing Ettix seemingly perfect their lead out train this season I've really begin to question Cav's reading/tactics over the past few years. You'd routinely see bolloking his own men in the last 5k if his train wasn't leading the way, only to be left with 1 man far too soon.
Always put it down to him/holm needing time to put together the right team but seems his HTC train had it far too easy all those years and he was never able to adapt now there are always 3 or 4 trains.
Would love to have seen Cav v Kittel both in their prime.0 -
RichN95 wrote:I gave Cavendish four stars because I still expect him to come away with a stage win in any grand tour he's in. Something I also feel with only Kittel and Greipel.
Add Gaviria to that list. If he gets the chance at a GT he will win a couple of stages. Maybe La Vuelta.
I say this because the last time he didn't win a sprint that he contested was in January 2015 when he lost to Cav in San Luis. Since then he's beaten Greipel, Sagan, Viviani. Modolo etc etc every time he's come up against them.0 -
Everyone decided caleb needs another year or two yet??
Winning training races doesn't count. Otherwise my club run sprint tally would give me 5 stars and I can barely make it over 55kph in a gentle downhill sprint.0 -
Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:I gave Cavendish four stars because I still expect him to come away with a stage win in any grand tour he's in. Something I also feel with only Kittel and Greipel.
Add Gaviria to that list. If he gets the chance at a GT he will win a couple of stages. Maybe La Vuelta.
I say this because the last time he didn't win a sprint that he contested was in January 2015 when he lost to Cav in San Luis. Since then he's beaten Greipel, Sagan, Viviani. Modolo etc etc every time he's come up against them.
Eh?
I guess the key word there is contested.
The one, early season WT win, backed up by a single win at HC level (ToB) and a half dozen 2.1 wins, half of which were San Luis, is the reality."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Pretty sure Gaviria came nowhere in the sprint finish in one of the classics post MSR (forget which one, I think a Lotto Soudal guy won). He contested it just went too early and then died on his arse.
Re Ewan, he already has a GT stage win to his name doesn't he? Not bad for his age.0 -
Ewan and Gaviria are clearly the future. Reason I think Cav is still 4* is that he is a persistent winner when he's on his "A" game. put him in a grand tour and I'm sure he will get you a win.0
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Blazing Saddles wrote:Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:I gave Cavendish four stars because I still expect him to come away with a stage win in any grand tour he's in. Something I also feel with only Kittel and Greipel.
Add Gaviria to that list. If he gets the chance at a GT he will win a couple of stages. Maybe La Vuelta.
I say this because the last time he didn't win a sprint that he contested was in January 2015 when he lost to Cav in San Luis. Since then he's beaten Greipel, Sagan, Viviani. Modolo etc etc every time he's come up against them.
Eh?
I guess the key word there is contested.
The one, early season WT win, backed up by a single win at HC level (ToB) and a half dozen 2.1 wins, half of which were San Luis, is the reality.
The manner in which he has beaten prime sprinters - easily, shows that he is up there with the very best. He doesn't get beaten. Look at PCS if you don't believe me. He's wiped the floor with the likes of Cav, Viviani, Modolo, Sagan, Greipel several times.
He's also been injured 3 times already this season. And won Gold on the track. After the Olympics this boy will win everything for the next how-ever-many years.0 -
Joelsim wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:I gave Cavendish four stars because I still expect him to come away with a stage win in any grand tour he's in. Something I also feel with only Kittel and Greipel.
Add Gaviria to that list. If he gets the chance at a GT he will win a couple of stages. Maybe La Vuelta.
I say this because the last time he didn't win a sprint that he contested was in January 2015 when he lost to Cav in San Luis. Since then he's beaten Greipel, Sagan, Viviani. Modolo etc etc every time he's come up against them.
Eh?
I guess the key word there is contested.
The one, early season WT win, backed up by a single win at HC level (ToB) and a half dozen 2.1 wins, half of which were San Luis, is the reality.
The manner in which he has beaten prime sprinters - easily, shows that he is up there with the very best. He doesn't get beaten. Look at PCS if you don't believe me. He's wiped the floor with the likes of Cav, Viviani, Modolo, Sagan, Greipel several times.
He's also been injured 3 times already this season. And won Gold on the track. After the Olympics this boy will win everything for the next how-ever-many years.
Everybody gets beaten, Joel. Every sprint is different. Form varies throughout a season.
Sure, he beat Viviani, Ewan, Modolo, Nizzolo and Debuscherre in Tirreno.
Two weeks later, he got beaten by Debuscherre, Coquard, Pozzato Nizzolo and others in Dwars.
We have had the exact same debate, elsewhere and again, it's not a star rating base upon potential, but where riders currently stand. Bottom line is that he currently has one career win at both WT and HC levels.
4 stars have to earned, not just by winning a GT stage, but doing it against in form big guns.
Ewan has won a GT stage, looked unbeatable in the TDU and currently looks a little out of his depth.
Same story with Mareczko.
He's just not in the same league as Bouhanni, Coquard, Degenkolb, Nizzolo or Viviani, until he proves it.
That is not saying that either won't.................in time."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Joelsim wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:I gave Cavendish four stars because I still expect him to come away with a stage win in any grand tour he's in. Something I also feel with only Kittel and Greipel.
Add Gaviria to that list. If he gets the chance at a GT he will win a couple of stages. Maybe La Vuelta.
I say this because the last time he didn't win a sprint that he contested was in January 2015 when he lost to Cav in San Luis. Since then he's beaten Greipel, Sagan, Viviani. Modolo etc etc every time he's come up against them.
Eh?
I guess the key word there is contested.
The one, early season WT win, backed up by a single win at HC level (ToB) and a half dozen 2.1 wins, half of which were San Luis, is the reality.
The manner in which he has beaten prime sprinters - easily, shows that he is up there with the very best. He doesn't get beaten. Look at PCS if you don't believe me. He's wiped the floor with the likes of Cav, Viviani, Modolo, Sagan, Greipel several times.
He's also been injured 3 times already this season. And won Gold on the track. After the Olympics this boy will win everything for the next how-ever-many years.
Everybody gets beaten, Joel. Every sprint is different. Form varies throughout a season.
Sure, he beat Viviani, Ewan, Modolo, Nizzolo and Debuscherre in Tirreno.
Two weeks later, he got beaten by Debuscherre, Coquard, Pozzato Nizzolo and others in Dwars.
We have had the exact same debate, elsewhere and again, it's not a star rating base upon potential, but where riders currently stand. Bottom line is that he currently has one career win at both WT and HC levels.
4 stars have to earned, not just by winning a GT stage, but doing it against in form big guns.
Ewan has won a GT stage, looked unbeatable in the TDU and currently looks a little out of his depth.
Same story with Mareczko.
He's just not in the same league as Bouhanni, Coquard, Degenkolb, Nizzolo or Viviani, until he proves it.
That is not saying that either won't.................in time.
He's way better than that bunch Huw. I understand you wanting to see how he performs over a period of time, but this guy is an absolute superstar in the making. I'll nail my flag to the post now. (And as Rich can tell you I'm very rarely wrong. Except when I'm not right).
Gav is a young Usain Bolt, whereas Ewan is a Linford and the Modolos of this world are lanes 1 and 8.0 -
I reckon if you were to put some time into analysing results and weight points for 'placings' you'd be surprised how high Sagan would rate.
He's more than capable of coming second to Kittel any day of the week.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:I reckon if you were to put some time into analysing results and weight points for 'placings' you'd be surprised how high Sagan would rate.
He's more than capable of coming second to Kittel any day of the week.
He is, and he's in no way a sprinter. Pretty savvy.0 -
RichN95 wrote:A sprinter can't, to my mind, be considered top class until they have produced it in the Tour or the Giro, where there are a dozen top sprinters, all on form - the pace is 5kph faster, the battles start 10km earlier and the gaps are smaller.
Yep I agree, but we saw in MSR, where only inexperience and nerves stopped Gaviria winning in his maiden race.
He will win loads of GT stages, he will also win several classics and semi-classics including MSR, and I think Flanders and Lombardia too.0 -
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RichN95 wrote:A sprinter can't, to my mind, be considered top class until they have produced it in the Tour or the Giro, where there are a dozen top sprinters, all on form - the pace is 5kph faster, the battles start 10km earlier and the gaps are smaller.
Pretty much my take on it too and why in reply to an earlier comment I would still have Cav above some of the others despite them looking as fast as him in some races recently.
On the Sagan thing (realise this wasn't your comment Rich but rather than start another post) - I agree with the comment about him being capable of finishing high up in a bunch sprint but I think that may be partly because even compared to your average pro sprinter he is such a superb bike handler and absolutely fearless he can find the right wheel - I'm not sure he has the pure speed to actually ever come round a Kittel, Cav or Greipel. I'm sure someone will post clip up to prove me wrong now ![Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Richmond Racer 2 wrote:
Well you can give me a Euro in 5 years when he's won 5 MSRs, The Ronde and at least 20 GT stages/semi/Classics in total.0 -
^megalolz0
