Defy 0 or Defy Advance 2 or CAAD12

knightlore21

Hi - have had a Giant Defy 1 for over 2 years and fancy a new bike.

Have been looking at Giant Defy 0 (via cycle to work) as will give me a similar ride to the Defy 1 which I have enjoyed albeit with newer and slightly upgraded components (would sell Defy 1 if get this bike)

Also considering the Defy Advance 2 and CAAD12 (circa £1300 via interest free over 12 months) - would probably keep the defy 1 as my winter commuter if I end up buying either of these.

Also struggling re sizing re the CAAD as am 5ft 7inch with 29inch inside leg and currently have a defy 1 medium.

Has anybody any advice as to which way to go with this decision. Bike would be used primarily for commuting with the odd weekend ride thrown in.

thepeginator

100% most important aspect in buying any bike is fit. Forget materials/components etc. if it doesn't fit you all shiny paint and bells and whistles are useless.

If you know the defy geometry suits you, looking at another Defy is a smart move. Traditional geometry frames tend to be less 'forgiving' fit-wise. Also frame size can't be calculated from height/inseem alone, the reach is actually more important to get right as that can only be adjusted within a small range whilst the saddle height/set-back can be adjusted both easily and across a big range.

As an example, I'm also 5'7, most people of my height tend to ride a 52/54 frame, I'm all legs and no body/arms, so my reach is short, but I'm flexible and I like a low aggressive position. So I tend to ride an XS frame with a 51/52cm top tube with a lot of seat post stuck out and a big saddle/bar drop. Someone else who's 170cm but has short legs, long arms and isn't as flexible might actually want a bigger frame size, like a 54, with a lower saddle height meaning less bar drop etc.

Having gone through a bunch of frames in search of one that fits well and having had a bike fit, I'd recommend anyone buying a new bike to go and get fitted and/or go and ride it! There is no substitute for that.

TL:DR
- In a CAAD you'd *probably* be looking at a 54, but you'd probably find you'd need more spacers under your stem as it's more aggressive than a defy.
- Defy 0 doesn't really seem like enough of an upgrade to be worth it if you already own a Defy 1.
- Defy Advanced seems like a smart move as it's a nicer version of what you have and you know the geometry works for you.

knightlore21

Thanks for your advice - absolutely agree re Fit. I had a Boardman hybrid prior to the Defy 1 and had terrible lower back pain whenever standing for more than 30 mins - got a Defy 1 and no more back pain...coincidence ?

Thinking of sticking with what I know and getting the Defy 0 - will only cost about £700 in real terms via the cycle to work scheme (and I might get a couple of hundred £s for my 2 year old Defy 1) - if it isn't broke why fix it (other than for a different paint job and newer components)

thepeginator

Personally if it was my money I'd probably spend the extra and buy the advanced, use that as your 'nice bike' and keep the current defy 1 as a commuter/filthy weather bike. The advanced will be a noticeable step up from the standard defy. But it's not my money!

If you shut your eyes. I don't think you'd find the defy 0 would be much different from your current defy 1 if you just spent a bit of money on a full service and some new tyres etc.

knightlore21

Must admit that is why I have not already pulled the trigger on the Defy 0....would be a new bike that didn't really feel like a new bike. Thought of upgrading wheels on the Defy 1 but when shopping around, prices of decent upgrade wheels from the PR2s were coming in at hundreds of pounds - starting to get into cycle to work new bike territory then...

thepeginator

Indeed, to get a worth-while wheel upgrade I think you'd be looking to spend £200-300. Wheels are almost always the best upgrade you can make to the factory spec of most bikes but good ones aren't cheap.

A lot of bike shops will let you use a C2W voucher and add a lump sum on top to cover the difference for a bike over £1000. Might be worth an ask.

dj58

If you already have a Defy 1 I don't think that there is much point in upgrading to a Defy 0 as the differences are minimal STI's, RD, brake calipers, even though the 2016 bike has the D-Fuse frame, I don't think you would notice a big difference if any. I could see your reasoning if you were to going for the carbon Defy Advance 2 and keeping your Defy 1 as the commuter/winter bike, same size and geometry so no adapting to a different setup.

A 54 Caad12 has a 54.7cm H.T.T. and 13.9cm H.T as opposed your Defy Med. 54.5cm H.T.T. and 16.5cm H.T.,do go and try one if you are considering buying one as the size/geometry may or may not suit you. It is the C+ bike of the year for 2016.

Defy Med.
Stack 56.7cm
Reach 37.7

Caad12 54cm
Stack 55.1cm
Reach 38.7cm

banditvic

I have a CAAD 12 In a 52 I am 5'6" also have EVO in a 50cm both fit me fine. I would definitely say a 54 would be to big for you.
The CAAD 12 is a lot lighter than the Defy and slightly more comfortable.

hsiaolc

Knightlore21 wrote:

Hi - have had a Giant Defy 1 for over 2 years and fancy a new bike.

Have been looking at Giant Defy 0 (via cycle to work) as will give me a similar ride to the Defy 1 which I have enjoyed albeit with newer and slightly upgraded components (would sell Defy 1 if get this bike)

Also considering the Defy Advance 2 and CAAD12 (circa £1300 via interest free over 12 months) - would probably keep the defy 1 as my winter commuter if I end up buying either of these.

Also struggling re sizing re the CAAD as am 5ft 7inch with 29inch inside leg and currently have a defy 1 medium.

Has anybody any advice as to which way to go with this decision. Bike would be used primarily for commuting with the odd weekend ride thrown in.

I am exact same measurement as you and for Giant it is a small not medium. So if you go medium means you prefer something really low with a race geometry.

Back to which bike you should get. I dont' think you should get another Defy? Why? from 1 to 0 just for components? Totally not worth it.

What do you want from the bike? After defy 1 what do you wish more? Something more racy? Or something more relaxed?

You want to go tubeless or bigger wheels? All to consider.

Personally I will get the CAAD12.

hsiaolc

banditvic wrote:

I have a CAAD 12 In a 52 I am 5'6" also have EVO in a 50cm both fit me fine. I would definitely say a 54 would be to big for you.
The CAAD 12 is a lot lighter than the Defy and slightly more comfortable.

More comfortable?!!

I thought CAAD12 is a race bike and not in the endurance category and more comfortable than Defy maybe you got the wrong size defy? That's why I steered away from it completely.

dj58

hsiaolc wrote:

banditvic wrote:

I have a CAAD 12 In a 52 I am 5'6" also have EVO in a 50cm both fit me fine. I would definitely say a 54 would be to big for you.
The CAAD 12 is a lot lighter than the Defy and slightly more comfortable.

More comfortable?!!

I thought CAAD12 is a race bike and not in the endurance category and more comfortable than Defy maybe you got the wrong size defy? That's why I steered away from it completely.

I think banditvic is refering to ride comfort, not geometry, the general consensus seems to be that Cannondale aluminium frames are very comfortable regardless of geometry type.

gaffer_slow

why not spend £500 on some wheels, and the rest on other fancy bikes.

Dont think you are getting much buying another Defy.

Moving from a Defy to a CAAD you have to be pretty sure you can handle the aggressive position, which it sould from your previous experience that you cant.

An emonda is a little bit more forgiving that the CAAD. £1300 gets you an S5

dj58

hsiaolc wrote:

Knightlore21 wrote:

Hi - have had a Giant Defy 1 for over 2 years and fancy a new bike.

Have been looking at Giant Defy 0 (via cycle to work) as will give me a similar ride to the Defy 1 which I have enjoyed albeit with newer and slightly upgraded components (would sell Defy 1 if get this bike)

Also considering the Defy Advance 2 and CAAD12 (circa £1300 via interest free over 12 months) - would probably keep the defy 1 as my winter commuter if I end up buying either of these.

Also struggling re sizing re the CAAD as am 5ft 7inch with 29inch inside leg and currently have a defy 1 medium.

Has anybody any advice as to which way to go with this decision. Bike would be used primarily for commuting with the odd weekend ride thrown in.

I am exact same measurement as you and for Giant it is a small not medium. So if you go medium means you prefer something really low with a race geometry.

I'm confused by this, do you mean that he should have bought a small Defy 1 bike? Or that because he bought a medium Defy 1, which is longer and taller than the small Defy 1 bike, he should buy a Caad12 which IS longer and lower in a 54cm size bike, even though as banditvic says, it may be too big for him?

knightlore21

Thanks for all the advice coming in - must admit that Bike sizing does confuse me....having have the Defy 1 medium for over 2 years I have found the medium to be a comfortable ride. Don't feel as though it has been too big or that I am in an aggressive position (maybe because of the Defy sportive geometry). Having thought some more I will definitely not get the Defy 0 just for fresh paint job and newer components. My choice now is between the Defy advance 2 or CAAD 12 or forgwtting the new bike for now and instead upgrading wheels on my current Defy 1.

hsiaolc

DJ58 wrote:

hsiaolc wrote:

Knightlore21 wrote:

Hi - have had a Giant Defy 1 for over 2 years and fancy a new bike.

Have been looking at Giant Defy 0 (via cycle to work) as will give me a similar ride to the Defy 1 which I have enjoyed albeit with newer and slightly upgraded components (would sell Defy 1 if get this bike)

Also considering the Defy Advance 2 and CAAD12 (circa £1300 via interest free over 12 months) - would probably keep the defy 1 as my winter commuter if I end up buying either of these.

Also struggling re sizing re the CAAD as am 5ft 7inch with 29inch inside leg and currently have a defy 1 medium.

Has anybody any advice as to which way to go with this decision. Bike would be used primarily for commuting with the odd weekend ride thrown in.

I am exact same measurement as you and for Giant it is a small not medium. So if you go medium means you prefer something really low with a race geometry.

I'm confused by this, do you mean that he should have bought a small Defy 1 bike? Or that because he bought a medium Defy 1, which is longer and taller than the small Defy 1 bike, he should buy a Caad12 which IS longer and lower in a 54cm size bike, even though as banditvic says, it may be too big for him?

Yes I meant he actually should be using a Small Defy. But since he is using a medium means he prefer more stretched position.

hsiaolc

Knightlore21 wrote:

Thanks for all the advice coming in - must admit that Bike sizing does confuse me....having have the Defy 1 medium for over 2 years I have found the medium to be a comfortable ride. Don't feel as though it has been too big or that I am in an aggressive position (maybe because of the Defy sportive geometry). Having thought some more I will definitely not get the Defy 0 just for fresh paint job and newer components. My choice now is between the Defy advance 2 or CAAD 12 or forgwtting the new bike for now and instead upgrading wheels on my current Defy 1.

Well I think you are confused of what you want.

If I were you I would go with CAAD12 but I would try it first and see if I like the geometry. You can try them with Evans or other local bike shop that carries them.

gaffer_slow

learn how to use the stack and reach bb2stem spreadsheet.

what size of stem, and what is the total distance between the head tube and bottom of stem?
eg conical topcap + spacer = ?mm
is the stem flipped (+ve) or is it in the negative position (note it will still point up)

knightlore21

hsiaolc wrote:

Knightlore21 wrote:

Thanks for all the advice coming in - must admit that Bike sizing does confuse me....having have the Defy 1 medium for over 2 years I have found the medium to be a comfortable ride. Don't feel as though it has been too big or that I am in an aggressive position (maybe because of the Defy sportive geometry). Having thought some more I will definitely not get the Defy 0 just for fresh paint job and newer components. My choice now is between the Defy advance 2 or CAAD 12 or forgwtting the new bike for now and instead upgrading wheels on my current Defy 1.

Well I think you are confused of what you want.

If I were you I would go with CAAD12 but I would try it first and see if I like the geometry. You can try them with Evans or other local bike shop that carries them.

Would love to have even seen a CAAD 12 in the flesh let alone try one for size... Went into Evans yesterday and no CAAD 12s and was told they would only get one in if I paid a deposit !!!! Absolute rubbish service (so will definitely not be using them for anything in future) - I'm sure that Cannondale will be really impressed about how well Evans are pushing their "bike of the year".

Am now looking at wheeelset upgrades for Defy 1 (to make it a slightly smoother/quicker ride than with the stock PR2s - have so far narrowed it down to Fulcrum Racing 5s or Campag Zondas... I know the Zondas would be better wheels but are approx £90 more expensive - are they worth the extra over the racing 5s (are the racing 5s even considered an upgrade from the PR2s ?)

poptart242

Went from a medium Defy 0 (53.5) to a 52cm Supersix. Assume CAAD12 geo is similar as it's how they advertise anyway. My 52 has a 53.5cm TT. Hope that helps!

dj58

Poptart242 wrote:

Went from a medium Defy 0 (54.5) to a 52cm Supersix. Assume CAAD12 geo is similar as it's how they advertise anyway. My 52 has a 53.5cm TT. Hope that helps!

FTFY 53.0cm E.T.T. is a small Defy frame. I have previously posted the reach and stack figures for the Med. Defy and Caad12 54cm frames, so as has already been suggested by another poster, a 54cm Caad12 may be too big for the OP, and you seem to confirm that. The OP would be wise to try the 52cm and 54cm Caad12, if he decides to buy one in the future. :?:

knightlore21

DJ58 wrote:

Poptart242 wrote:

Went from a medium Defy 0 (54.5) to a 52cm Supersix. Assume CAAD12 geo is similar as it's how they advertise anyway. My 52 has a 53.5cm TT. Hope that helps!

FTFY 53.0cm E.T.T. is a small Defy frame. I have previously posted the reach and stack figures for the Med. Defy and Caad12 54cm frames, so as has already been suggested by another poster, a 54cm Caad12 may be too big for the OP, and you seem to confirm that. The OP would be wise to try the 52cm and 54cm Caad12, if he decides to buy one in the future. :?:

Thanks for the advice all - will be asking Cyclesurgery to get a 52 and 54 CAAD 12 in for me to try both (much more accommodating than Evans ;-)

poptart242

Knightlore21 wrote:

DJ58 wrote:

Poptart242 wrote:

Went from a medium Defy 0 (54.5) to a 52cm Supersix. Assume CAAD12 geo is similar as it's how they advertise anyway. My 52 has a 53.5cm TT. Hope that helps!

FTFY 53.0cm E.T.T. is a small Defy frame. I have previously posted the reach and stack figures for the Med. Defy and Caad12 54cm frames, so as has already been suggested by another poster, a 54cm Caad12 may be too big for the OP, and you seem to confirm that. The OP would be wise to try the 52cm and 54cm Caad12, if he decides to buy one in the future. :?:

Thanks for the advice all - will be asking Cyclesurgery to get a 52 and 54 CAAD 12 in for me to try both (much more accommodating than Evans ;-)

Good catch, my apologies. Always but always sit on a bike for fit, don't listen to idiots like me mis-quoting sizes on the internet!

thepeginator

^ it's going to very much depend on how much bar drop the OP likes, if he likes a lot of drop a smaller frame will make sense with a longer stem to adjust for the reduced top tube length. If he prefers less bar drop then a medium frame with a shorter stem might make more sense.

OP. what length stem do you use? is it angled down or up? and how many mm's of spacers do you use under the stem on your current medium defy?

gimpl

OP - I have a 2012 Defy 1 which now has 10sp Ultegra on it and PSL1 wheels. I also have a 2013 Defy Composite 1 with 11sp Ultegra. I can't tell there's an extra gear there but I certainly can feel a level of difference in comfort between the two.

I love them both and use the older one as my wet weather/winter bike. It feels great having them both set up identically so there's no 'adjustment' needed when going from one to the other.

So for me the advice is go for the Defy Advanced, well worth it.

gaffer_slow

wait a couple of months and get the 105 Adv Pro or above on close out.

knightlore21

thepeginator wrote:

^ it's going to very much depend on how much bar drop the OP likes, if he likes a lot of drop a smaller frame will make sense with a longer stem to adjust for the reduced top tube length. If he prefers less bar drop then a medium frame with a shorter stem might make more sense.

OP. what length stem do you use? is it angled down or up? and how many mm's of spacers do you use under the stem on your current medium defy?

Stem is 100mm and points slightly upwards and I have all spacers in place (25mm). I don't like hanging over the bars which is probably why the Defy medium is comfortable (I have saddle set low so at a similar height to handle bars.

gaffer_slow

Assuming that your 25mm is on top of your 15mm topcap the diagram below should help.
- this assumes that your 'slightly pointing up' means that the stem is in the negative position

the CAAD comes with a -6 stem and a 25mm top cap and a number of spacers. I used a 90mm stem

For this comparison i used 25mm top cap + 25mm spacers (their might even be more)

the calculation includes 0.5 X stem stack which is half the width of the stem - usually 0.5 x 40mm

the point of this is to get measurement for handlebar position

using this setup the CAAD 54 bars would be:

5mm lower
2mm closer than your M defy if the CAAD had a 90mm stem and the specified spacers

knightlore21

gaffer_slow wrote:

Assuming that your 25mm is on top of your 15mm topcap the diagram below should help.
- this assumes that your 'slightly pointing up' means that the stem is in the negative position

the CAAD comes with a -6 stem and a 25mm top cap and a number of spacers. I used a 90mm stem

For this comparison i used 25mm top cap + 25mm spacers (their might even be more)

the calculation includes 0.5 X stem stack which is half the width of the stem - usually 0.5 x 40mm

the point of this is to get measurement for handlebar position

using this setup the CAAD 54 bars would be:

5mm lower
2mm closer than your M defy if the CAAD had a 90mm stem and the specified spacers

Thanks Gaffer slow - this has blown my mind somewhat but can see from your analysis that the 54 CAAD would provide the closest fit compared with my Defy medium - thanks for your efforts

gaffer_slow

you can download the spreadsheet here

http://bb2stem.blogspot.co.uk

bar placement is what is important, and head tube angle stem length and angle and spacers used have a very significant effect on bike fit - and no always as you would expect - such as a high stack will have a larger reach that a low stack with spacers (that has a comparative frame reach)

note i just deleted the left side of ithe spreadsheet, and only used stack and reach side as most bike Geo now contains stack and reach info - and the geo section contains difficult to find info like fork length.



another point to work out, is if your stem is in the +ve or -ve position - it is slightly unclear as they both tend point up unless you have an extreme stem angle.

the hardest part to understand is the "headset+spacers+0.5xstem stack"

this is best illustrated as the measurement between the two points of pointed at by the arrows below.

it is Conical Spacer size + spacers + half of the width of the stem.

give or take a mm or two (for error and different manufacturers) i have found this to be very reliable to see how fit translates between bike.

you will see that changes in head tube angle has a little bit of an effect as to where the bars are placed, but small changes in stem angle - such as going from a -6 stem to a -8 stem actually brings the bars down 5mm (which i would consider significant)

knightlore21

Sat on a 54 CAAD 12 on Friday and is definitely too big (seat post was right down and could not reach the floor and was clearly over reaching re the handlebars) - as such will be ordering a 52 frame (and guess will have scope to raise sadlle and adjust handlebars accordingly). I can get the CAAD 12 105 for £1200 (£100 off from trading in an old mountain bike I have sitting in the garage) or can get the CAAD 12 ultegra version for £1550 (£150 off re trade in) - is the ultegra version worth £350 more than the 105 (slightly different crankset and wheels/tyres as well as the group set upgrade) ?

banditvic

Here's a far better idea, book yourself a Holiday to Gran Canaria. Hire a CAAD 12 from Freemotion, have a great week cycling then buy a second hand one off of them for 899 Euros. That's what I just did, they fit new chain, cassette, bar tape and tyres and take all the protective tape off, couldn't see a mark on mine except for the Chainset where the chain goes. They also take your hire cost off of the purchase price, so the smart idea is to hire a Hi Mod for the week. Just a thought.