Giving fasted training another go

andyeb

I've tried fasted training previously, up to once a week, keeping intensity right down (HR Z2 and below) and limiting fasted workouts to an hour (i.e. only doing the first hour of a longer ride fasted-taking on some food after that).

However I gave up on it, because it didn't seem to be compatible with my long distance commute (round trip 60 miles) - I just ended up getting terribly fatigued/taking too long to recover and regularly getting ill within 24 hours of fasted workouts.

But I'm wondering if I gave up on it too early and now need to loose some of that hard to shift middle-aged-spread. Does anyone have any opinion on whether it is worth trying any of:

• Gradually cutting down the amount of calories I consume as breakfast before riding, instead of going straight in with water-only
• Consuming protein drinks on the bike
• Something else?

diy

I do it once a week, but I keep the exercise down to under 3 hours. I found after about six months I can go at around 90% of normal - definitely not working at Z2.

I'm getting old now, but I've always had a pretty good vo2max and resting HR is still mid to high 30s. Made a massive difference for endurance rides (over 10 hours) but strength training often makes you feel a bit light headed.

buckmulligan

I'd say give it another shot and as with most things, try to stick with it because the toughest part is the start as your body is trying to adapt its physiology to the new demands you're putting on it. It will take a few weeks but keep the intensity low and you should find the fasted sessions getting easier.

And I'd say, the plan of cutting down breakfasts isn't going to produce the response you want, it's got to be all or nothing. If you're giving your body some fuel for the workout, your blood sugar will start off high as you're digesting the food, you'll burn through that (and probably a bit of muscle glycogen) and fat metabolism will stay minimal throughout. After the workout your blood sugar will drop as your body tries to replenish that glycogen and you'll feel tired and hungry. The whole point of a fasted workout is that you hit it in a low-glycogen, low-blood sugar state so that your body starts metabolising fat from the get-go. You'll still burn some glycogen but the proportion and total amount of fat metabolism will be much higher. Then afterwards focus your nutrition on recovery.

slowmart

Two hour tops for a fasted ride, take on 60gms of carbs at the half way point if you feel the need.

As long as your consuming the right amount of calories a day one fasted ride a week shouldn't incur illness unless there is some underlying reason

andyeb

Thanks for the advice so far guys.

I was also wondering about building up fasted volume slowly, by taking my folding bike on the train for some of the journey, rather than going straight out and doing the whole 30 mile trip fasted from the get go.

slowmart

It depends on your goal?

If you're aim is for your body adapting to burn fat efficiently then a 30 mile ride should be fine at zone 2 as long as you not hammering yourself for the rest of the week. Fasted rides are great for triggering adaption for fat burning but again it depends on what your over arching aims are from cycling?

Without a wider context of your riding week one fasted ride should not muller you for the remainder of the day and I'd question if your feeling your body with enough carbs and if the consumption is at the required level what is the calorie percentage breakdown for Protein, fat and carbs? Or possible overtraining.

During the winter I was doing two fasted rides a week between 80 to 100 minutes with no ill effect and the fourth week reducing down to one fasted ride but my priority was effecient fat burning

markhewitt1978

I often do that on the turbo trainer. One hour ride before driving to work (about another hour) and having breakfast there. I wouldn't say it's high intensity but it's not low intensity either; as fast as I feel like going. But I always stop on the hour I don't continue riding like the OP.

Garry H

I always ride fasted on my commute to work, it's just a tad under twenty miles of undulating road and takes about an hour. I've never had any illness because of it and I've been doing it three to four days a week for the last five years. I usually have a banana and then some porridge when I get to work. Right as rain for my ride home in the evening.

Do you have a manual job perhaps?

Camcycle1974

I ride fasted into work and I do my Sunday club run fasted too (40-50) miles at reasonable intensity. When I was doing a lot a 60 mile fasted ride was no issue. If you are 15% body fat at 80kgs you have 12kgs of stored fat on your body which equates to nearly 100,000 calories of fuel so there is no issue with running out of gas. You just have to teach your body to prioritise fat as a fuel which you do by training fasted. It may be tough to start with but persevere and it will get easier and you will burn more fat. In a recent study it was shown that men burn 12% more calories from fat when fasted so you might as well se that to your advantage.

napoleond

If you're struggling then you're going too hard.
When I started doing them (having been appropriately lab tested to show where I'm running pretty much purely on fat) my HR was scarily low.
I was prescribed 4 rides a week at this intensity. My average speed was about 14mph for the couple of hours.
Now I'm more efficient to a higher HR and Tuesday averaged 19.5mph at same intensity. My power has gone up 60ish watts. It's taken a good couple of years, but the biggest gains came in the first 3-4 months.

However, this is reliant on knowing the right heart rate zones. I get retested every 3 months or so.

pirnie

NapoleonD wrote:

However, this is reliant on knowing the right heart rate zones. I get retested every 3 months or so.

Out of interest, where do you go to get them tested?

napoleond

Www.sportstest.co.uk

Coupled with a bike fit at www.cadencesport.co.uk , the biggest impact on my cycling by far.

mechanism

Is there a risk of metabolising muscle rather than fat? Or is that a myth?

hypster

After 70-90 minutes of exercise, glycogen stores dip low enough to commence recruiting amino acids from lean muscle stores into the energy cycle at a greater rate. Replacement of cannibalized protein needs to begin during exercise and restored within 30 minutes (ideal) to 120 minutes after exercise in the presence of a cell carrier enzyme, glycogen synthase, which is released in proportion to muscle glycogen depletion.

http://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledg ... ge-section

napoleond

^^
That won't happen if you keep the intensity low enough, you'll just be using mostly fat. As you get better and better you'll use less carbs and protein with an increase in speed at the right intensity. The furthest I've done is 60 miles in just under 4hrs starting from an overnight fast, black coffee before I set off and just water on the bike.
If you look at what Barry Murray does, he is fully 'fat adapted' - he regularly races (and recently won) ridiculous ultra marathons on nowt but water.
Obviously this is the extreme and is applicable to ultra endurance as opposed to races/rides which demand medium to high intensity, so we need carbs for that but if you can cycle in a couple of hours fasted training at the right intensity a few times a week it works wonders.

There's part 1 of a more scientific article here-
http://www.optimumnutrition4sport.com/?page_id=547

Camcycle1974

NapoleonD wrote:

^^
That won't happen if you keep the intensity low enough, you'll just be using mostly fat. As you get better and better you'll use less carbs and protein with an increase in speed at the right intensity. The furthest I've done is 60 miles in just under 4hrs starting from an overnight fast, black coffee before I set off and just water on the bike.
If you look at what Barry Murray does, he is fully 'fat adapted' - he regularly races (and recently won) ridiculous ultra marathons on nowt but water.
Obviously this is the extreme and is applicable to ultra endurance as opposed to races/rides which demand medium to high intensity, so we need carbs for that but if you can cycle in a couple of hours fasted training at the right intensity a few times a week it works wonders.

There's part 1 of a more scientific article here-
http://www.optimumnutrition4sport.com/?page_id=547

Good points. This is also how the Kenyans train for marathons (fasted) up at 5.30 am, run a marathon, get back, cup of tea then more training, eat in the evening, repeat. Seems to work for them but it's all about adaptation.

singleton

Takes a while for your body to adapt mind - don't expect to do two fasted rides and then suddenly be able to ride a century on nothing but water.

tazmon

I'm trying to ride most mornings before work and I'm never hungry early morning. If I'm riding fasted at a higher intensity for 60-90 mins will I cause myself problems? Currently trying to drop weight from 12st to around 11st.

Cheers

napoleond

Keep the intensity low.

tazmon

Cheers I'll give it a go. 12st 1lb and 21.5% fat according to my scales this morning. Let's see how it goes over the next month or so, planning low intensity most mornings and higher intensity sessions later in the day.

markhewitt1978

NapoleonD wrote:

Keep the intensity low.

But is there any reason to keep the intensity low?

singleton

markhewitt1978 wrote:

But is there any reason to keep the intensity low?

Yes there is, at low intensity your body is going to burn fat for fuel.

markhewitt1978

Singleton wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

But is there any reason to keep the intensity low?

Yes there is, at low intensity your body is going to burn fat for fuel.

That's already been comprehensively debunked on many occasions. Sure if you're talking about riding for many hours then it's better to keep at low intensity, but we aren't talking about that, we're talking about a fixed time 60-90 minute ride. Going at high intensity will burn more fat. It's true that as a proportion of the total energy burned, less will be fat than under the low intensity conditions. But since the overall total energy burn is higher, the fat burn ends up higher too.

diy

I don't think that is true. The lower intensity means a higher ratio of fat to glycogen is burned. When fasted there is less glycogen available, so the body needs to get it from fat and other sources. An average person stores enough glycogen to last for 12 to 14 hours or over 2 hours with sustained moderate intensity. The higher intensity you train at, the more you'll burn. But the key thing is that you will not benefit in shorter events. Its really only endurance events that benefit. If you are training for short events you might still get better results carb loading.

apreading

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Singleton wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

But is there any reason to keep the intensity low?

Yes there is, at low intensity your body is going to burn fat for fuel.

That's already been comprehensively debunked on many occasions. Sure if you're talking about riding for many hours then it's better to keep at low intensity, but we aren't talking about that, we're talking about a fixed time 60-90 minute ride. Going at high intensity will burn more fat. It's true that as a proportion of the total energy burned, less will be fat than under the low intensity conditions. But since the overall total energy burn is higher, the fat burn ends up higher too.

Yes, but you end up burning muscle too at high intensity - your body will get the energy wherever it can under those circumstances.

napoleond

Two things- You are trying to get your body to a position where it gets better at glycogen sparing. You don't get that by doing sessions where you're burning glycogen.
Also, the lower intensity means that you are fresher for harder sessions rather than being 'middle' for both...