What do people think about wheelsuckers?
Comments
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dstev55 wrote:I think when groups go out with a wide range of ability then splits are inevitable but as long as everyone is happy with this and enjoying the ride, as is the case with my usual group, then what's the problem?
Splits may be inevitable but if you sprint up hills then those splits will be larger and more frequent - more waiting around for the faster riders whilst the ones that actually need a rest don't get one plus they are in the wind until they catch up or reach the point where the others are waiting.
I go out on club runs with reasonable range of ability and I don't find it a problem to go easy on the hills so people aren't miles off the back but there will always be people who you never see on the front in the wind who can't help themselves smashing up a climb. Most hills still offer a bit of drafting benefit to people in the wheel so if you knock it back a bit the weaker riders can stay in for longer and all you have to do is roll over the top for them to get back rather than wait.
I accept etiquette differs and there is a grey area between a training ride and a club run (all rides are after all training) but I just think too many rides are a constant stringing out and regrouping rather than a tight group and ultimately you end up covering less distance because the slowest riders are getting shagged out buy constantly getting shelled.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Just tell him to stop being such a tool. Had a guy like that if my old club, built like a pipe cleaner and didn't have enough power to overcome a gentle breeze on the flat. Fast up hill though, purely by dint of hauling slightly less weight than an anorexic's lunch box.. :roll:
He'd then wait at the top - getting a breather - with his arms crossed and a smug look on his face, till he got towed to the next climb.0 -
Which one of the Yates was he, black or white socks??0
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Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?0
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Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.0 -
dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
If you're focussed on getting quality training out of each ride, then why ride in a group with less able riders where you'll have to wait at the top of hills?0 -
I will often sit in during a group ride.
Our group is quite small but with a broad ability level so it depends who is out. If the fast guys are out then I just sit in and try to keep up - if teh slower guys are out and the pace is lower then I'll take my turn.
But sitting in and then sprinting up hills seems wierd and somwhat unfriendly behaviour to me.0 -
In my club pretty much everybody goes up hills at the pace they want to and nobody minds because there is no earthly reason why you should. I'd feel rather bad and selfish if someone was having to climb a hill at a slower pace than they wanted to because of me.
There seem to be a lot of rule obsessed clubs about. I have to deal with enough rules during the week - weekend is for fun.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
If you're focussed on getting quality training out of each ride, then why ride in a group with less able riders where you'll have to wait at the top of hills?
Why not go out cycling alone then? Or go with a group of a better ability than you?0 -
I think most clubs have rides where it splits on the hills. Sounds fair enough to me. Whats not fair is to shirk your turns on the front unless you're suffering.
If you then bugger off up the hill I'd expect our angel of the mountains to be put in his place. Unless you've all signed up to be his domestiques.0 -
Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
If you're focussed on getting quality training out of each ride, then why ride in a group with less able riders where you'll have to wait at the top of hills?
Why not go out cycling alone then? Or go with a group of a better ability than you?
I do sometimes, but the guys I go out with are the guys that have helped me go from a complete novice one year ago to a decent cyclist now. I would not be where I am in terms of fitness and ability if I didn't go out with these guys. A couple of them are as strong if not stronger still now. At some point (probably next year) I will join one of the local clubs with some stronger guys, but right now there's still plenty I can learn from them and we all have a laugh when we're out.0 -
Rolf F wrote:In my club pretty much everybody goes up hills at the pace they want to and nobody minds because there is no earthly reason why you should. I'd feel rather bad and selfish if someone was having to climb a hill at a slower pace than they wanted to because of me.
There seem to be a lot of rule obsessed clubs about. I have to deal with enough rules during the week - weekend is for fun.
Very well said.0 -
dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
You need to get yourself on a couple of local chaingangs a week.. or a chaingang plus a club ten.
Having your legs ripped off is about as anti social as it gets.
Basically myself and another vet are in charge of our local chainy this season... if you cant discipline yourself, we have no objection to people to find themselves another group to train with.. plus we'll tell you to f uck off anyway.0 -
JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
You need to get yourself on a couple of local chaingangs a week.. or a chaingang plus a club ten.
Having your legs ripped off is about as anti social as it gets.
Basically myself and another vet are in charge of our local chainy this season... if you cant discipline yourself, we have no objection to people to find themselves another group to train with.. plus we'll tell you to f uck off anyway.
Chaingangs and going on a hilly social ride are two completely different things to be fair....0 -
Reminds me why i avoid club riding nowadays #smhthe deeper the section the deeper the pleasure.0
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dstev55 wrote:JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
You need to get yourself on a couple of local chaingangs a week.. or a chaingang plus a club ten.
Having your legs ripped off is about as anti social as it gets.
Basically myself and another vet are in charge of our local chainy this season... if you cant discipline yourself, we have no objection to people to find themselves another group to train with.. plus we'll tell you to f uck off anyway.
Chaingangs and going on a hilly social ride are two completely different things to be fair....
I thought you werent bothered about the social aspect and wanted the training effect ... hence the advice.
So, seems you are best off half wheelin everyone off the front... making friends along the way..
not0 -
JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
You need to get yourself on a couple of local chaingangs a week.. or a chaingang plus a club ten.
Having your legs ripped off is about as anti social as it gets.
Basically myself and another vet are in charge of our local chainy this season... if you cant discipline yourself, we have no objection to people to find themselves another group to train with.. plus we'll tell you to f uck off anyway.
Chaingangs and going on a hilly social ride are two completely different things to be fair....
I thought you werent bothered about the social aspect and wanted the training effect ... hence the advice.
So, seems you are best off half wheelin everyone off the front... making friends along the way..
not
When did I say I'm not bothered about the social aspect?
Being a vet I didn't think fishing would have been your sport.0 -
I dont ride in any clubs, just with a few mates and ill take my turn on the front.
But as for hills, i am just trying to get up them at my own pace, and at the moment that is a bit quicker than the mates i ride with usually.
Plus with using strava etc i am always trying to push myself as much as poss without blowing up for the rest of the ride.My winter bike is exactly the same as my summer bike,,, but dirty...0 -
Fudgey wrote:I dont ride in any clubs, just with a few mates and ill take my turn on the front.
But as for hills, i am just trying to get up them at my own pace, and at the moment that is a bit quicker than the mates i ride with usually.
Plus with using strava etc i am always trying to push myself as much as poss without blowing up for the rest of the ride.
You've just described my situation a lot better than what I could!0 -
Also my time is pretty limited, i can only do a thursday evening during the week and saturdays are better than sundays at the weekend although with planning i could do a sunday. But i cant go early on a sat as my son swims so i need to look after the daughter till the wife is back with him.
I try and go out at lunchtimes when i can and if they are in, there are a couple of guys who i ride with (although not both at the same time yet)
One is an ex racer who still rides with a club so i am learning from him, and he also pushes me quite hard. Managed a 12.5 mile ride at 19.5mph yesterday and took a few turns on the front etc, the odd cheeky sprint and all that.
I cycled to work this morning, 10.5 miles at 19.3mph so the speed is upping for shorter distances, the ride home tonight was 17.3 miles and 18.3mph
These rides ill tend do as fast as possible, but they are all pretty flat.
At the weekends is where we do bigger milages and look for a few hills, hence going at them at as best pace that i can sustain.My winter bike is exactly the same as my summer bike,,, but dirty...0 -
dstev55 wrote:JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
You need to get yourself on a couple of local chaingangs a week.. or a chaingang plus a club ten.
Having your legs ripped off is about as anti social as it gets.
Basically myself and another vet are in charge of our local chainy this season... if you cant discipline yourself, we have no objection to people to find themselves another group to train with.. plus we'll tell you to f uck off anyway.
Chaingangs and going on a hilly social ride are two completely different things to be fair....
I thought you werent bothered about the social aspect and wanted the training effect ... hence the advice.
So, seems you are best off half wheelin everyone off the front... making friends along the way..
not
When did I say I'm not bothered about the social aspect?
Being a vet I didn't think fishing would have been your sport.
In your earlier post you started by saying that the person described by the OP could be you. So you're saying that you don't take a turn on the front, then you race past the group on the climbs. But, you also say that you need to do that to get a good workout, that you can't afford not to. You're contradicting yourself a bit. You could easily get a good workout by taking turns in the wind. You might find the hills tough enough at the groups pace when you have done 10 minutes riding hard into a head wind.0 -
Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
You need to get yourself on a couple of local chaingangs a week.. or a chaingang plus a club ten.
Having your legs ripped off is about as anti social as it gets.
Basically myself and another vet are in charge of our local chainy this season... if you cant discipline yourself, we have no objection to people to find themselves another group to train with.. plus we'll tell you to f uck off anyway.
Chaingangs and going on a hilly social ride are two completely different things to be fair....
I thought you werent bothered about the social aspect and wanted the training effect ... hence the advice.
So, seems you are best off half wheelin everyone off the front... making friends along the way..
not
When did I say I'm not bothered about the social aspect?
Being a vet I didn't think fishing would have been your sport.
In your earlier post you started by saying that the person described by the OP could be you. So you're saying that you don't take a turn on the front, then you race past the group on the climbs. But, you also say that you need to do that to get a good workout, that you can't afford not to. You're contradicting yourself a bit. You could easily get a good workout by taking turns in the wind. You might find the hills tough enough at the groups pace when you have done 10 minutes riding hard into a head wind.
If you read my post again you'll note this was a one off occurrence as it wasn't the usual group I go out with. I am more than happy to do my fair share on the front (and do) it's just on the example I used it was with a group that had a different system of getting on the front.0 -
dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
If you're focussed on getting quality training out of each ride, then why ride in a group with less able riders where you'll have to wait at the top of hills?
Why not go out cycling alone then? Or go with a group of a better ability than you?
I do sometimes, but the guys I go out with are the guys that have helped me go from a complete novice one year ago to a decent cyclist now. I would not be where I am in terms of fitness and ability if I didn't go out with these guys. A couple of them are as strong if not stronger still now. At some point (probably next year) I will join one of the local clubs with some stronger guys, but right now there's still plenty I can learn from them and we all have a laugh when we're out.
I disagree. You're just a bloke with a bike that doesn't like doing a fair share on the flat and saves his legs to show off on the climbs. Decent cyclists don't ride like that.
If you did your fair share on the flat, you'd get a good workout without needing to start waving your cock around on the hills.0 -
dstev55 wrote:Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:JGSI wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
You need to get yourself on a couple of local chaingangs a week.. or a chaingang plus a club ten.
Having your legs ripped off is about as anti social as it gets.
Basically myself and another vet are in charge of our local chainy this season... if you cant discipline yourself, we have no objection to people to find themselves another group to train with.. plus we'll tell you to f uck off anyway.
Chaingangs and going on a hilly social ride are two completely different things to be fair....
I thought you werent bothered about the social aspect and wanted the training effect ... hence the advice.
So, seems you are best off half wheelin everyone off the front... making friends along the way..
not
When did I say I'm not bothered about the social aspect?
Being a vet I didn't think fishing would have been your sport.
In your earlier post you started by saying that the person described by the OP could be you. So you're saying that you don't take a turn on the front, then you race past the group on the climbs. But, you also say that you need to do that to get a good workout, that you can't afford not to. You're contradicting yourself a bit. You could easily get a good workout by taking turns in the wind. You might find the hills tough enough at the groups pace when you have done 10 minutes riding hard into a head wind.
If you read my post again you'll note this was a one off occurrence as it wasn't the usual group I go out with. I am more than happy to do my fair share on the front (and do) it's just on the example I used it was with a group that had a different system of getting on the front.
OK, thanks. Was just wondering...0 -
Rodrego Hernandez wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
If you're focussed on getting quality training out of each ride, then why ride in a group with less able riders where you'll have to wait at the top of hills?
Why not go out cycling alone then? Or go with a group of a better ability than you?
I do sometimes, but the guys I go out with are the guys that have helped me go from a complete novice one year ago to a decent cyclist now. I would not be where I am in terms of fitness and ability if I didn't go out with these guys. A couple of them are as strong if not stronger still now. At some point (probably next year) I will join one of the local clubs with some stronger guys, but right now there's still plenty I can learn from them and we all have a laugh when we're out.
I disagree. You're just a bloke with a bike that doesn't like doing a fair share on the flat and saves his legs to show off on the climbs. Decent cyclists don't ride like that.
If you did your fair share on the flat, you'd get a good workout without needing to start waving your fool around on the hills.
It's amazing how you know me so well considering you've never met me. Fortunately you or your opinion mean absolutely nothing to me.0 -
dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
If you're focussed on getting quality training out of each ride, then why ride in a group with less able riders where you'll have to wait at the top of hills?
Why not go out cycling alone then? Or go with a group of a better ability than you?
I do sometimes, but the guys I go out with are the guys that have helped me go from a complete novice one year ago to a decent cyclist now. I would not be where I am in terms of fitness and ability if I didn't go out with these guys. A couple of them are as strong if not stronger still now. At some point (probably next year) I will join one of the local clubs with some stronger guys, but right now there's still plenty I can learn from them and we all have a laugh when we're out.
I disagree. You're just a bloke with a bike that doesn't like doing a fair share on the flat and saves his legs to show off on the climbs. Decent cyclists don't ride like that.
If you did your fair share on the flat, you'd get a good workout without needing to start waving your fool around on the hills.
It's amazing how you know me so well considering you've never met me. Fortunately you or your opinion mean absolutely nothing to me.
Group rides are shit training unless it's a proper double hard bastard chain gang.0 -
DavidJB wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
If you're focussed on getting quality training out of each ride, then why ride in a group with less able riders where you'll have to wait at the top of hills?
Why not go out cycling alone then? Or go with a group of a better ability than you?
I do sometimes, but the guys I go out with are the guys that have helped me go from a complete novice one year ago to a decent cyclist now. I would not be where I am in terms of fitness and ability if I didn't go out with these guys. A couple of them are as strong if not stronger still now. At some point (probably next year) I will join one of the local clubs with some stronger guys, but right now there's still plenty I can learn from them and we all have a laugh when we're out.
I disagree. You're just a bloke with a bike that doesn't like doing a fair share on the flat and saves his legs to show off on the climbs. Decent cyclists don't ride like that.
If you did your fair share on the flat, you'd get a good workout without needing to start waving your fool around on the hills.
It's amazing how you know me so well considering you've never met me. Fortunately you or your opinion mean absolutely nothing to me.
Group rides are shoot training unless it's a proper double hard bastard chain gang.
Nah, I'm pretty sure I've sussed you out 100%
now go put on your pro team kit and pretend you're marco pantani out sprinting your mates up a hill after sitting on them all ride0 -
Rodrego Hernandez wrote:DavidJB wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
If you're focussed on getting quality training out of each ride, then why ride in a group with less able riders where you'll have to wait at the top of hills?
Why not go out cycling alone then? Or go with a group of a better ability than you?
I do sometimes, but the guys I go out with are the guys that have helped me go from a complete novice one year ago to a decent cyclist now. I would not be where I am in terms of fitness and ability if I didn't go out with these guys. A couple of them are as strong if not stronger still now. At some point (probably next year) I will join one of the local clubs with some stronger guys, but right now there's still plenty I can learn from them and we all have a laugh when we're out.
I disagree. You're just a bloke with a bike that doesn't like doing a fair share on the flat and saves his legs to show off on the climbs. Decent cyclists don't ride like that.
If you did your fair share on the flat, you'd get a good workout without needing to start waving your fool around on the hills.
It's amazing how you know me so well considering you've never met me. Fortunately you or your opinion mean absolutely nothing to me.
Group rides are shoot training unless it's a proper double hard bastard chain gang.
Nah, I'm pretty sure I've sussed you out 100%
now go put on your pro team kit and pretend you're marco pantani out sprinting your mates up a hill after sitting on them all ride
I'll stick by my opinions and beliefs all day long, but what I won't do is resort to throwing unfounded insults at people I've never met or never likely to meet.
Shame you can't follow the same ethos...0 -
dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:DavidJB wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Alex99 wrote:dstev55 wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Why not just ride as a group for the whole ride? You don't all jump around on the flat so why do it on the hills?
If I don't push myself on hills then on some rides it would feel like I've not even been out.
I haven't got enough spare time in my life to waste on rides that are of no benefit to me.
Call it selfish, lack of respect whatever, but I enjoy the physical challenge of cycling as much if not more than the social aspect.
If you're focussed on getting quality training out of each ride, then why ride in a group with less able riders where you'll have to wait at the top of hills?
Why not go out cycling alone then? Or go with a group of a better ability than you?
I do sometimes, but the guys I go out with are the guys that have helped me go from a complete novice one year ago to a decent cyclist now. I would not be where I am in terms of fitness and ability if I didn't go out with these guys. A couple of them are as strong if not stronger still now. At some point (probably next year) I will join one of the local clubs with some stronger guys, but right now there's still plenty I can learn from them and we all have a laugh when we're out.
I disagree. You're just a bloke with a bike that doesn't like doing a fair share on the flat and saves his legs to show off on the climbs. Decent cyclists don't ride like that.
If you did your fair share on the flat, you'd get a good workout without needing to start waving your fool around on the hills.
It's amazing how you know me so well considering you've never met me. Fortunately you or your opinion mean absolutely nothing to me.
Group rides are shoot training unless it's a proper double hard bastard chain gang.
Nah, I'm pretty sure I've sussed you out 100%
now go put on your pro team kit and pretend you're marco pantani out sprinting your mates up a hill after sitting on them all ride
I'll stick by my opinions and beliefs all day long, but what I won't do is resort to throwing unfounded insults at people I've never met or never likely to meet.
Shame you can't follow the same ethos...
being of the opinion and belief that you're a decent cyclist doesn't make it so. in fact your described riding style indicates that you aren't.0
