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choice of wheels

patrazpatraz Posts: 18
edited April 2016 in Road buying advice
Hello guys,
which of the following wheelset you think is the most appropriate for a middle level bike (total cost up to around 2200euros):
DT Swiss R23 (or 32) Spline
DT Swiss R20 Dicut
Mavic Cosmic Elite
Mavic Ksyrium Elite
Mavic Ksyrium Equipe S
or
Cero AR30

I am a bit new at this and I dont really have experience on using them.

Thanks a lot

Posts

  • dstev55dstev55 Posts: 742
    I've had DT Swiss R20 Dicuts and Cero AR30 on my Focus Cayo and the AR30's are in a different league.

    Stiffer, lighter and just generally feel faster.
  • singletonsingleton Posts: 2,034
    If you will want to try tubeless tyres then it would be worth getting rims that are tubeless compatible.
    The trend in rims is to make them wider, so you may want to consider that and get a newer design, but of course only if you have sufficient clearance on your frame to fit them.
  • trek_dantrek_dan Posts: 1,366
    My preference would be the R23 as it has a wider rim.
  • Ste_SSte_S Posts: 1,173
    patraz wrote:
    Hello guys,
    which of the following wheelset you think is the most appropriate for a middle level bike (total cost up to around 2200euros):
    DT Swiss R23 (or 32) Spline
    DT Swiss R20 Dicut
    Mavic Cosmic Elite
    Mavic Ksyrium Elite
    Mavic Ksyrium Equipe S
    or
    Cero AR30

    I am a bit new at this and I dont really have experience on using them.

    Thanks a lot

    What's wrong with the wheels your bike comes with ?
  • patrazpatraz Posts: 18
    Ste_S wrote:
    patraz wrote:
    Hello guys,
    which of the following wheelset you think is the most appropriate for a middle level bike (total cost up to around 2200euros):
    DT Swiss R23 (or 32) Spline
    DT Swiss R20 Dicut
    Mavic Cosmic Elite
    Mavic Ksyrium Elite
    Mavic Ksyrium Equipe S
    or
    Cero AR30

    I am a bit new at this and I dont really have experience on using them.

    Thanks a lot

    What's wrong with the wheels your bike comes with ?

    There are very entry level of DT Swiss and would like to upgrade to something better.
  • patrazpatraz Posts: 18
    Singleton wrote:
    If you will want to try tubeless tyres then it would be worth getting rims that are tubeless compatible.
    The trend in rims is to make them wider, so you may want to consider that and get a newer design, but of course only if you have sufficient clearance on your frame to fit them.

    Is it worth trying tubeless? Cero is not as far as I know, but the DT Swiss are
  • singletonsingleton Posts: 2,034
    patraz wrote:
    Is it worth trying tubeless? Cero is not as far as I know, but the DT Swiss are

    I hope so - I've just ordered some new wheels and asked for tubeless tyres to be fitted.....
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,387
    patraz wrote:

    There are very entry level of DT Swiss and would like to upgrade to something better.

    What are you expecting the upgrade to achieve??
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    You need to define better. When people say i want a better set of wheels than what they have in the shop my reply is what do you do mean by better. That stumps 50% of people which means they dont need new wheels at all. As imposter has said what do you want from your new wheels and for that you have to know what is wrong with your current ones. Dont listen to marketing bs and reviews are just as bad.

    To get something different to what you have go for a wide rim unless you have that already, a stiffer wheel and one that can take tubeless tyres. You will otherwise be in danger of getting something similar to whag yoh have at the moment. Lighter feels good but it does not make you any quicker unless tge weight loss is big. Aero is nice too but you will need a 25mm deep wide rim for that at least. The deeper the better but that adds weight too. Deep and narrow is not that great which rules mavic wheels out.
    Having an aero wheelset is the only way a wheel will make you faster but wider rims do allow the tyre to take up a bigger air volume which in turn on rougher roads does make you a bit quicker and over a long ride you will fatigue you less.

    Stiffer wheels allow longer spoke life. Offset rear rims do not make a stiffer wheel but they do result in longer spoke life.
    The smaller the bearings in the hub the shorter the bearong life. When a review says this hub rolls well igmore the entire review. All hubs in good order roll well. Hub rolling resistance is at least 100 times but up to 300 times less than overall drag (assuming total power output of 100 to 300w).
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • dstev55dstev55 Posts: 742
    You need to define better. When people say i want a better set of wheels than what they have in the shop my reply is what do you do mean by better. That stumps 50% of people which means they dont need new wheels at all. As imposter has said what do you want from your new wheels and for that you have to know what is wrong with your current ones. Dont listen to marketing bs and reviews are just as bad.

    To get something different to what you have go for a wide rim unless you have that already, a stiffer wheel and one that can take tubeless tyres. You will otherwise be in danger of getting something similar to whag yoh have at the moment. Lighter feels good but it does not make you any quicker unless tge weight loss is big. Aero is nice too but you will need a 25mm deep wide rim for that at least. The deeper the better but that adds weight too. Deep and narrow is not that great which rules mavic wheels out.
    Having an aero wheelset is the only way a wheel will make you faster but wider rims do allow the tyre to take up a bigger air volume which in turn on rougher roads does make you a bit quicker and over a long ride you will fatigue you less.

    Stiffer wheels allow longer spoke life. Offset rear rims do not make a stiffer wheel but they do result in longer spoke life.
    The smaller the bearings in the hub the shorter the bearong life. When a review says this hub rolls well igmore the entire review. All hubs in good order roll well. Hub rolling resistance is at least 100 times but up to 300 times less than overall drag (assuming total power output of 100 to 300w).

    All this technical babble is fine, but as I previously stated, I have directly compared Cero AR30's against DT Swiss R20 Dicut's. To me, I feel faster riding on the AR30s that the R20s and this is based on numerous rides on both sets, not just one. Based on what you say then this shouldn't be possible as apparently the hubs won't make a difference, narrow rims(AR30s are very narrow) negate any slight aero benefit that a 30mm rim may provide and the 100g weight difference is negligible. So why do they feel faster?
  • singletonsingleton Posts: 2,034
    edited March 2016
    dstev55 wrote:
    So why do they feel faster?

    I won't attempt to answer for thecycleclinic as I'm sure they are more than capable of answering for themselves.

    Do they "feel" faster or are they actually faster? I don't think anyone is suggesting that different wheels feel different and light wheels may feel like they accelerate faster for example.

    Do you ride one set of wheels in good weather and the other set in bad weather? This may affect the real or perceived speed.

    Did you ride one set for a while and then change over to the other set? If you are getting fitter then this may also affect the real or perceived performance.

    It's very hard to isolate the impact of one component. To do so, you would need to do a back to back test ride over the same course with the same conditions, with the same position and with the rider putting out the same power as measured on a power meter.
  • trek_dantrek_dan Posts: 1,366
    Placebo effect? As the Cero wheel is new the spoke tension is better and the bearings are free?
  • alex222alex222 Posts: 598
    trek_dan wrote:
    Placebo effect? As the Cero wheel is new the spoke tension is better and the bearings are free?
    The science of the Placebo effect is very interesting.
    For example a red pill has a greater placebo effect than a white pill. An injection has a greater placebo effect than a pill, etc...
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,387
    edited March 2016
    dstev55 wrote:
    All this technical babble is fine, but as I previously stated, I have directly compared Cero AR30's against DT Swiss R20 Dicut's. To me, I feel faster riding on the AR30s that the R20s and this is based on numerous rides on both sets, not just one. Based on what you say then this shouldn't be possible as apparently the hubs won't make a difference, narrow rims(AR30s are very narrow) negate any slight aero benefit that a 30mm rim may provide and the 100g weight difference is negligible. So why do they feel faster?

    Calling cycleclinic's considered response 'technical babble' does you no favours at all, unfortunately.

    'Feel' is not a scientific measure. Lots of things 'feel' different, better, faster, slower, for all kinds of reasons. Unless you can quantify it, that is all it is - a feeling.
  • bendertherobotbendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,841
    Interesting as my experience of the Ceros (AR24 in my case) is that the rims are very narrow (even less than the 13.6mm claimed, according to my digital calipers) and, for whatever reason, I found that I had to take corners like an old matron on a shopping bike which slowed me down overall. I ran my favourite tyres (25mm Schwalbe One) but the bike seemed to be incapable of holding a decent line and give me any confidence. It was like Bambi on Ice albeit not quite so amusing when I lost my front wheel on a junction.

    I was beginning to wonder if something major was awry...but when I swapped wheels to some with H+ Son Archetype rims (wider profile) it was like a night and day difference, even with the same tyres simply moved across. Bike has gone to feeling very smooth overall and tight in cornering. Climbing has been unaffected, according to Strava, despite the 100g penalty.

    I can honestly say that I don't know if it was the rim's width that was causing the issues but I am struggling to explain why else they would affect the tyres so greatly. I think my conclusion is that there are a lot of factors in what makes a good wheel/tyre combination and maybe some of this is personal to the rider too, so simply trying to pick from a list on behalf of someone else is always prone to failure.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I did manage to forget that wider rims handle better in the the bends than narrower ones thanks bobbings for pointing that out.

    Feel faster does not always equal faster. It would be rim weight you are feeling but really rim weight in the range that are available 400-520g makes almost no difference to how fast you go. Lighter rims do feel lighter under foot but I struggle to notice any difference in pace. The bloody wind makes a difference.

    Also I got all technical because that is how to assess wheels. The review speak and marketing blurb tell you nothing.
    American classic and campagnolo/fulcrum claim all kinds of things for triplet lacing for example. I build triplet laced wheels (well I will when I get the hubs) and the reason why is not what the marketing would have you believe. Tubeless tyres can cause a big tension drop on spokes (some standard clinchers do this too if they are tight enough). This means shorter spoke life and I dont like the idea of over tensioning the rim to compensate because what if a looser fitting tyre is fitted well the rim will crack! So triplet lacing with hubs that have the NDS rear flange pushed out to at least 46mm from centre couple with an offset rim (campagnolo do this) means much higher NDS rear spoke tension and then you have a wheel much longer spoke life while still being very stiff and lateral wheel stiffness is related to spoke bracing angles.

    I have done a couple of set and it works very well. They are not stiffer than a conventially laced wheel (well maybe a bit I have yet to measure) but the side load required to detension the NDS rear spokes is much higher due to the higher NDS rear spoke tension. This often get confused with increased stiffness but they are infact two different things. A triplet laced wheel feel like wheels to ride no different to conventionally laced one but I know for a high mileage rider spoke life will be well in excess of the life of the rim.

    So this why I describe wheels technically because that is the only way to look at them. do this and you will see past all the marketing hype.

    If it is stiff, wide, reasonably aero (pretty all wheel that use thin spoke a wide medium depth rim and have a 20 spoke front will be) and have reliable hubs then you have a good wheel.

    The DT Swiss R20 diecut wheels though use rims very similar to the RR440. This is a nice rim but not wide only 16mm internal width. I would not build a 20 spoke rear with this rim as it would not be that stiff epsecially as a DT Swiss hub is used. Also there are wider rims. I have found however they do hold a 120kg rider (32 spoke rear) quite well. I would also only build this rim as a 28 spoke rear minimum.

    the R23 spline uses the R460 rim. Again a good rim. It is 18mm internal width so wide enough but it is 23mm deep. Personally I would not build a 20 spoke rear as again I dont think it would be stiff enough. A 28 spoke rear for these particulalry with a DT Swiss hub

    Stiffer wheels mean longer spoke life.

    All the mavic krysium elite is 17mm internal width. This is probably not a bad option. Mavic do manage a build a stiff wheel.
    the Cosmic elite is narrow - forget about it. It is a design that dates back a long while you can do better.
    The Krysium Equipe S is not part of the 2016 line up in other words it uses a narrow rim so look at another wheel.

    Bobbings summed up what I think about the Cero AR30 quite well - look at another wheel.

    There are not that many wide offerings but of that list the new Mavic is probably the best. I have never said that before about a mavic wheel. First time for everything.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • bendertherobotbendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Fulcrum Racing 5 LG are cheap at the moment. And wide. And reasonably light. Reasonably.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • Ste_SSte_S Posts: 1,173
    patraz wrote:
    Ste_S wrote:
    patraz wrote:
    Hello guys,
    which of the following wheelset you think is the most appropriate for a middle level bike (total cost up to around 2200euros):
    DT Swiss R23 (or 32) Spline
    DT Swiss R20 Dicut
    Mavic Cosmic Elite
    Mavic Ksyrium Elite
    Mavic Ksyrium Equipe S
    or
    Cero AR30

    I am a bit new at this and I dont really have experience on using them.

    Thanks a lot

    What's wrong with the wheels your bike comes with ?

    There are very entry level of DT Swiss and would like to upgrade to something better.

    There's not going to be a huge amount of difference between most (good) aluminium wheelsets. You can save a bit of weight here, gain a tiny bit of aero there but it's not going to be something you're going to notice that much.
    Nothing wrong with buying more expensive wheels if you just want more 'bling' on your bike though. If I was buying an alu wheelset I'd probably go Fulcrum Quattro LGs - nice wide rim, semi-aero, good build quality and good value on wiggle. Put some nice 25mm tyres on (Veloflex) with latex inners and keep them for nice weather days.
    You''ll notice far more of a difference with tyre/inner/pressure choice than you will with alu wheel choice
  • dstev55dstev55 Posts: 742
    OK, well I'm more than happy with my AR30's and that's good enough for me.
  • dstev55dstev55 Posts: 742
    Imposter wrote:
    dstev55 wrote:
    All this technical babble is fine, but as I previously stated, I have directly compared Cero AR30's against DT Swiss R20 Dicut's. To me, I feel faster riding on the AR30s that the R20s and this is based on numerous rides on both sets, not just one. Based on what you say then this shouldn't be possible as apparently the hubs won't make a difference, narrow rims(AR30s are very narrow) negate any slight aero benefit that a 30mm rim may provide and the 100g weight difference is negligible. So why do they feel faster?

    Calling cycleclinic's considered response 'technical babble' does you no favours at all, unfortunately.

    It what way does it do me no favours?

    In the way that this is an Internet forum and it means absolutely nothing to me in the real world?
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,387
    dstev55 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    dstev55 wrote:
    All this technical babble is fine, but as I previously stated, I have directly compared Cero AR30's against DT Swiss R20 Dicut's. To me, I feel faster riding on the AR30s that the R20s and this is based on numerous rides on both sets, not just one. Based on what you say then this shouldn't be possible as apparently the hubs won't make a difference, narrow rims(AR30s are very narrow) negate any slight aero benefit that a 30mm rim may provide and the 100g weight difference is negligible. So why do they feel faster?

    Calling cycleclinic's considered response 'technical babble' does you no favours at all, unfortunately.

    It what way does it do me no favours?

    In the way that this is an Internet forum and it means absolutely nothing to me in the real world?

    I think you just answered your own question.
  • patrazpatraz Posts: 18
    I did manage to forget that wider rims handle better in the the bends than narrower ones thanks bobbings for pointing that out.

    Feel faster does not always equal faster. It would be rim weight you are feeling but really rim weight in the range that are available 400-520g makes almost no difference to how fast you go. Lighter rims do feel lighter under foot but I struggle to notice any difference in pace. The bloody wind makes a difference.

    Also I got all technical because that is how to assess wheels. The review speak and marketing blurb tell you nothing.
    American classic and campagnolo/fulcrum claim all kinds of things for triplet lacing for example. I build triplet laced wheels (well I will when I get the hubs) and the reason why is not what the marketing would have you believe. Tubeless tyres can cause a big tension drop on spokes (some standard clinchers do this too if they are tight enough). This means shorter spoke life and I dont like the idea of over tensioning the rim to compensate because what if a looser fitting tyre is fitted well the rim will crack! So triplet lacing with hubs that have the NDS rear flange pushed out to at least 46mm from centre couple with an offset rim (campagnolo do this) means much higher NDS rear spoke tension and then you have a wheel much longer spoke life while still being very stiff and lateral wheel stiffness is related to spoke bracing angles.

    I have done a couple of set and it works very well. They are not stiffer than a conventially laced wheel (well maybe a bit I have yet to measure) but the side load required to detension the NDS rear spokes is much higher due to the higher NDS rear spoke tension. This often get confused with increased stiffness but they are infact two different things. A triplet laced wheel feel like wheels to ride no different to conventionally laced one but I know for a high mileage rider spoke life will be well in excess of the life of the rim.

    So this why I describe wheels technically because that is the only way to look at them. do this and you will see past all the marketing hype.

    If it is stiff, wide, reasonably aero (pretty all wheel that use thin spoke a wide medium depth rim and have a 20 spoke front will be) and have reliable hubs then you have a good wheel.

    The DT Swiss R20 diecut wheels though use rims very similar to the RR440. This is a nice rim but not wide only 16mm internal width. I would not build a 20 spoke rear with this rim as it would not be that stiff epsecially as a DT Swiss hub is used. Also there are wider rims. I have found however they do hold a 120kg rider (32 spoke rear) quite well. I would also only build this rim as a 28 spoke rear minimum.

    the R23 spline uses the R460 rim. Again a good rim. It is 18mm internal width so wide enough but it is 23mm deep. Personally I would not build a 20 spoke rear as again I dont think it would be stiff enough. A 28 spoke rear for these particulalry with a DT Swiss hub

    Stiffer wheels mean longer spoke life.

    All the mavic krysium elite is 17mm internal width. This is probably not a bad option. Mavic do manage a build a stiff wheel.
    the Cosmic elite is narrow - forget about it. It is a design that dates back a long while you can do better.
    The Krysium Equipe S is not part of the 2016 line up in other words it uses a narrow rim so look at another wheel.

    Bobbings summed up what I think about the Cero AR30 quite well - look at another wheel.

    There are not that many wide offerings but of that list the new Mavic is probably the best. I have never said that before about a mavic wheel. First time for everything.

    Thanks a lot for the very detailed answers. My thoughs generally is to go for a total new bike compared to the one I already have in order to go for carbon fiber and dedicate the old one for the indoor trainer. And for this reasson I am trying also to understand the wheels part in order to make an appropiate choice and not waste money or buy something that will either brake soon or is not appropiate for me. Where I bike is mostly flat with hills (not like Alps though) and some times it tends to be windy. Also I am approximately 73kg if this is of importance. I would like to have somethign that won't make my life taught during biking (especially with the climbing), have a good control and dont make me afraid that i will loose control in a fast turn or so and be stiff to generally last and not get replaced soon. Also something that will be 'confortable' and not pain in the censored when have to ride like 200+ km. I dont look for the best wheels ever, as I know it won't make a huge difference for me.
    The wheels I wrote are some of the available options that I generally have without spending a huge deal of money. It seems tha the internal width plays a quite important role in the feeling of control. And from my options your suggestion is towards the Ksyrium Elite. On the other hand, I noticed that the R23 spline has 24 spokes in the rear and not 20 (https://www.dtswiss.com/Wheels/Road-Wheels/R-23-Spline). Does this make it stiff enough in your opinion?
    Any other suggestions based on whay I would like to have at a smilar more or less cost? What about Ultegra WH-RS610? And finally, a general suggestion if it worth to go for tubless generally
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I counted 20 spokes in the picture maybe is miscounted. I build with the dt swiss rr440 amd i do a 28 spoke rear no less. A 24 spoke rear is stiff enough to hold tigether but not stiff enough to ensure very long spoke life or that the wheels will stay straight.

    Also the r23 spline is not that wide.

    If you want a good ride pick a wheel eith a rim that has 17mm internal width as a minium but there are rims up to 20mm internal width. The wider the better as the wider the mire comfirtable the ride and the better the road holding gets. Also the wider a rim is get stiffer it gets.

    Notice how everything come down to how stiff a wheel is and that equates to how how long the spokes last. The trick to comfort is mostly down to the width of the rim as that changes the eidth of the tyre.

    Ultegrs wheels are narrow. I do not ride narrow rims myself. I also onky ride tubeless tures or tubular tyres (well inhave few clinchers on a some wheels but i hardly ever use them now).

    Also i build all my own wheels as pretty much nkone of the wheels produced by bigger names are ideal, they all have a comprise, either not stiff enough or too narrow, sometimes both.

    I think wheek weight is almost irrelevant to how they perform so long as they are not too heavy and stiff.
    There are these too
    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/zipp-30-clincher-wheelset/

    Not sure about long term reliability as i dont sell factory wheels neither dont ride any but they are the sort of spec that works.
    For little money you could buy these.
    http://www.fulcrumwheels.com/en/wheels/ ... quattro-lg
    You can overthink this as well. You want something round and reliable make sure you buy that. You could handbuilt route as well.
    Zipp produce this worth a [url=lookhttp://www.wiggle.co.uk/zipp-30-clincher-wheelset/]lookhttp://www.wiggle.co.uk/zipp-30-clincher-wheelset/[/url]
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
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