Insurance value after being knocked off by car

apreading

Not sure where to post this but need some advice.

I was knocked off my bike by a taxi, who has admitted liability. Bike is a write off. I am in British Cycling so the appointed a solicitor to act on my behalf. Got an estimate to replace with equivalent from LBS.

My solicitor has said, BEFORE speaking to opposing insurers that I "need a pre-accident valuation for your bike rather than a replacement quote." and that

All we mean by a pre-accident valuation is a quote from a local bike shop/engineer taking into account how long you have had the bike and any depreciation and wear and tear. The insurers will not pay new for old and if we were to provide them with the quote as it is they will make their own deductions.

My LBS were amazed - they had never heard of this before and didnt know how to estimate depreciation etc. They said that in 20 years all insurance replacements were like for like new bike.

The bike was in 'as new' condition with not a mark on it apart from some cable rub in its first week on the forks before I put helicopter tape in various points.

Does this make any sense and does anyone have any experience/advice?

Anonymous

Apart from going to the manufacturer and asking how much it would cost for the same bike again or the nearest they could offer in the case of a warranty replacement I cannot think of a real way you can price a bike. Its not like the car industry who would have a guide to car valuations based on age and mileage.

Maybe get a few quotes for a new bike from some dealers who stock your brand of bike and give them that.

dstev55

Or just send them a copy of the receipt when you bought the bike new. Put the ball in their court, it's their responsibility to reimburse you for your loss.

apreading

Doesnt help that bike was kinda bespoke and I had upgraded to Ultegra chainset, new bars, handbuilt wheels etc...

I am just a bit miffed that this is my solicitor doing this without even trying. I think I will just have to push them to go for the new replacement value of all the parts and let them come back to argue - if they refuse THEN we can look at how to lobby them for more. I dont know why the solicitor isnt working this way to start with, and I dont know how hard it will be to persuade them to represent me in the way that I want. I wonder if they are just interested in the personal injury side of things as perhaps they earn more from that...

webboo

When I got knocked off my bike. I used a no win no fee solicitor out of cycling weekly. They just asked for the make of things bike, shoes, clothing and helmet and pictures of the damage, also purchase cost and age. They asked me to get an assessment of the damage to my bike but already said as it was carbon it would be classed as a right off.
They worked out the value based on the age, they original said I would not get replacement value for my bike but as they put a claim for my ( minor ) injuries I thought everything together would get me the replacement cost of my bike.
I then got a message from the solicitor saying the have offered X but I don't think they included the value of your bike. I will go back to them and ask for it and I did get the full value.
So I think the law says current worth but a good solicitor will get you replacement costs

andy9964

Point out that, if it had been stolen, and you claimed from your house insurance, you would get "new for old"
Or, as you say, ask for the value of the parts, and add in your labour charge for fitting

bendertherobot

apreading wrote:

Not sure where to post this but need some advice.

I was knocked off my bike by a taxi, who has admitted liability. Bike is a write off. I am in British Cycling so the appointed a solicitor to act on my behalf. Got an estimate to replace with equivalent from LBS.

My solicitor has said, BEFORE speaking to opposing insurers that I "need a pre-accident valuation for your bike rather than a replacement quote." and that

All we mean by a pre-accident valuation is a quote from a local bike shop/engineer taking into account how long you have had the bike and any depreciation and wear and tear. The insurers will not pay new for old and if we were to provide them with the quote as it is they will make their own deductions.

My LBS were amazed - they had never heard of this before and didnt know how to estimate depreciation etc. They said that in 20 years all insurance replacements were like for like new bike.

The bike was in 'as new' condition with not a mark on it apart from some cable rub in its first week on the forks before I put helicopter tape in various points.

Does this make any sense and does anyone have any experience/advice?

The purpose of damages in tort is to put the injured party into their pre accident position. Where that relates to a physical item it's pretty easy to put a value on it. But, short of having a time machine, it's very hard to be able to give them that thing. So we use damages to try and do our best.

In theory your "loss" is in relation to a second hand bike. But it's not really possible to get that bike or the parts of it very easily or probably at all. So the easiest route is to get some form of like for like replacement, that's pretty standard practice. Arguably new for old breaches the damages rule as you typically get a better bike out of it. If you think about cars they do get valued on what's "out there."

It may be he's hedging his bets and wants a "worst case" to fall back on if he can't get "best case." But he'll get best case without trying hard at all. It's how it works.

Tomorrow, ring him up and ask him how his proposal would see you put into your pre accident position and why he's recommending this course of action. It's not an incorrect approach legally but I'd be holding out for the best offer he can possibly get.

apreading

Thanks all, especially BTR - much appreciated. I have just replied to the solicitor on the basis of

As my bike was metculously maintained and in as new condition, I have been advised that to find an identical bike of that age in as good condition as mine would be extremely difficult and therefore the only way to put me back in the position I was in before the crash would be to provide a new like for like replacement.

I also added several extra parts such as @£500 hand built wheels, £125 Ultegra chainset, pannier rack, mudguards, handlebar grips and bar ends - all of which are damaged or unusable and I expect to be replaced with new items or equivalent cash - these will not sensibly be available second hand.

Are you suggesting that they will only pay second hand value for the bike but will pay for replacement of fitted components like wheels/rack or are you looking for a second hand price for the whole lot? Bear in mind that the wheels in particular were bespoke built to my specification so cannot be replaced in this way.

I cant see any other way of getting me back to an equivalent to what I had before.

If they are unwilling to even try for the full value then I am a bit concerned about them representing me at all. There is a personal injury element and if they are as lacklustre as this over the simple stuff, how will they be with the other bits...

bendertherobot

apreading wrote:

Thanks all, especially BTR - much appreciated. I have just replied to the solicitor on the basis of

As my bike was metculously maintained and in as new condition, I have been advised that to find an identical bike of that age in as good condition as mine would be extremely difficult and therefore the only way to put me back in the position I was in before the crash would be to provide a new like for like replacement.

I also added several extra parts such as @£500 hand built wheels, £125 Ultegra chainset, pannier rack, mudguards, handlebar grips and bar ends - all of which are damaged or unusable and I expect to be replaced with new items or equivalent cash - these will not sensibly be available second hand.

Are you suggesting that they will only pay second hand value for the bike but will pay for replacement of fitted components like wheels/rack or are you looking for a second hand price for the whole lot? Bear in mind that the wheels in particular were bespoke built to my specification so cannot be replaced in this way.

I cant see any other way of getting me back to an equivalent to what I had before.

If they are unwilling to even try for the full value then I am a bit concerned about them representing me at all. There is a personal injury element and if they are as lacklustre as this over the simple stuff, how will they be with the other bits...

It can be better to be bespoke in some ways as value if much harder to ascribe to the thing as a whole and the value of the parts fitted might represent a better recovery. The same overall principles apply though. Let's see what the suggested approach is first and go from there. It's going to be very hard for your LBS to value the bike overall. Though, of course, it's entirely open to them to state that the bike value is considerably higher and more in demand due to its bespoke nature.

apreading

Fingers crossed - thus far not impressed with the solicitor that British Cycling use - can never get them on the phone, take over a day and chasing emails before I get an email back which gets stuff wrong and doesnt really inspire me. Almost wish I was doing it myself - especially as the driver has a legal firm who called me a week ago and told me that he admitted liability but my solicitor wont pick the phone up and talk to them... grrr - I thought they were supposed to make it easy for me but they are adding to the hassle, quite the opposite!

mroli

Is it Leigh day?

They were good for me. I had emails answered under 24 hours which is prompt for a solicitor given that claims will take a long time to resolve.

I've used them twice successfully.

For my claim on a bespoke bike, I just totted up the cost, took it to a bike shop and they certified that that was their valuation of the bike. Not contested and paid 'in full'.

DeVlaeminck

I had a similar thing just last month - car ran into me and admitted liability - the woman from Leigh Day couldn't have been more on the case - in the end the insurance company paid up new for old on the bike and all the clothes that were damaged no questions asked - the bike was almost new right enough but the clothes weren't and I didn't pretend they were. The insurance just said my claim sounded reasonable and they were prepared to pay it in full.

apreading

I guess it might be easier if it were a 'properly' bespoke bike that started as a frame with all the parts added - but this started from a full bike donor. I am sure there will be no fuss from the other side - just wish my own side wasnt being so difficult!

And yes, it is Leigh Day.

DeVlaeminck

If the bike shop are willing to write a report that the bike is beyond economic repair and a replacement (new) would cost £3k or whatever I'd just use that I can't see the solicitor objecting - if he does I'd be saying it's not your job to deduct depreciation it's up to the insurer to make an offer. Assuming you didn't pay rrp for anything on the bike even deducting something for depreciation I'm pretty sure you'll be able to replace it new for old and maybe even better.

chippyk

When I got knocked off the driver's insurance company found an identical bike to mine, apart from the wheels, on gumtree. The offered me that amount and no amount of arguing would change it. By the time they'd added on damaged kit, which was Castelli, Rapha, Sidi, Oakley and Garmin of course, which was still perfectly usuable, a taxi home etc, they paid the cost of a comparable new bike. I wanted to argue and get more, their response was they'll pay it no questions or send all the damaged kit in for valuing. It was late October and my LBS had a sale on, I wanted to move quickly so didn't pursue it through a solicitor. Granted it was only an 8 year old Fondriest with Veloce though, they paid 450 for the bike and about a grand for the kit IIRC. Offered 750 for injuries, pursued it via a solicitor and got 4 grand.

I was a bit hacked off about their offer, our rules, I didn't choose to be knocked by a driver with that insurance. My bike insurance now covers new for old provided I have the receipt.....

apreading

Going to speak to my home insurers - bike is insured as specified item and I may be able to claim from there and recover the excess from the driver. Not sure if they would cover this and whether it would put up my future premiums though, so may not be viable.

markhewitt1978

Having gone through this myself it does pretty much suck that, through no fault of your own you're then left seriously out of pocket having to stump up for a new bike. I don't think many would be happy with a second hand bike to replace one they've meticulously cared for for many years.

DeVlaeminck

I don't know I've got a Look 585 that is maybe 8 years old - it's got a mixture of Record and Chorus 10 speed on it - if it got trashed I wouldn't expect a current pro level frameset and a chorus 11 speed groupset brand new to replace it. I don't know what I'd get for my bike second hand but I doubt it would be more than a grand even in parts - a brand new top end Look with similar high end kit of today would be what - 5k ?

apreading

Yes - I wonder if they pursue 'second hand value' if there would be an argument that the cost of servicing at an LBS and replacing chain/cassette/cables/brake pads should also be added on top of the purchase price of the second hand bike as these would be subject to wear and tear on most second hand purchases...

ballysmate

apreading wrote:

Fingers crossed - thus far not impressed with the solicitor that British Cycling use - can never get them on the phone, take over a day and chasing emails before I get an email back which gets stuff wrong and doesnt really inspire me. Almost wish I was doing it myself - especially as the driver has a legal firm who called me a week ago and told me that he admitted liability but my solicitor wont pick the phone up and talk to them... grrr - I thought they were supposed to make it easy for me but they are adding to the hassle, quite the opposite!

What's stopping you? Contact the other side, give them a your itemised values, complete with links to retailers or better still get your lbs to give you a quote for a rebuild. If they pay, great. If not, just inform them that you will continue through your solicitor.
But as you say, he does appear to be p1ss poor.

apreading

Cant - now that the solicitor has been instructed by British Cycling, I am not allowed to negotiate myself I think as this would break the terms of the contract. And while I might be better off negotiating the bike myself, I am sure the other side would not offer so much on the personal injury side without a solicitor to argue with them.

webboo

In my case I had a few cuts and bruises but I was able to ride, which thought might help stop me stiffening up. I only got a check up with my GP after being advised to by the solicitor.
If it happened again I would be getting seen by a medic as possible and taking time off work, as it seems that you get more for personal injuries than damage to your bike etc. This way you will ensure you get enough to replace your bike.
My solicitor sent me at a later date to see their doctor for a report. When pursing my claim he asked did the scar from the graze on my elbow stopping me wearing short sleeve shirts
My moral compass balked at that one.

apreading

Fractured clavicle, disrupted ACJ joint due to ligament damage, left arm in sling for 6-8 weeks, waiting on x-ray on other hand/wrist for pain, hematoma on leg from ruptured muscle, bruises & cuts on leg where car impacted it between bumper & bike, major cuts on hip & shoulder, cuts & bruising to cheek/temple which have all but gone thanks to the miracle og hydrogel plasters, bruising/swelling to temple meaning I cant open my mouth fully without pain, cant drive, ride or go to gym... can only type one handed on bikeradar but if that hand also fractured then I will be really stuffed!

Hopefully, regardless of how they value the bike, I will get enough to replace with a new one from the physical injury but thats not the point really...

slowbike

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I don't know I've got a Look 585 that is maybe 8 years old - it's got a mixture of Record and Chorus 10 speed on it - if it got trashed I wouldn't expect a current pro level frameset and a chorus 11 speed groupset brand new to replace it. I don't know what I'd get for my bike second hand but I doubt it would be more than a grand even in parts - a brand new top end Look with similar high end kit of today would be what - 5k ?

I've got a Specialized Allez - it was entry level spec when I bought it - since then I've replaced the wheels and groupset - if it were to be damaged in a crash then it's not possible to get a second hand bike to put me back at the same point - it has to be a new one - because the Specialized bikes came with lifetime warranty for the original owner - which I am ...
I'd be wanting at least the cost of a base new one - which is probably 3 times the price I'd be able to sell my current Allez for - as that's the only way I can retain lifetime warranty.
But the specs of the new bikes are significantly less than I've upgraded my bike to - so upgrade parts should be costed into the value.

bendertherobot

Current JC guidelines place fractured clavicle at £4,290 to £10,230 so you should do ok. You'll be looking at a lot more than the entry there after it's all factored in. Frankly, given the level of damages for PSLA, I doubt they'd flinch at the correct valuation for your bike. Impossible to value overall without seeing your medical report but you're right that it's a good reason to stick with your solicitor.

To follow up the rest of the advice, get your LBS to write what they feel is correct

JesseD

FWIW, I got knocked off a couple of years ago and had Leigh Day appointed to me by British Cycling, from memory they were poor at coming back to me and it took almost 4-5 months to finalise everything and they did roll up the cost of my injuries along with the bike, however as I worked in insurance at the time I also knew how the other parties insurers were likely to play it so got a couple of valuations from LBS's that I used regularly on the whole bike (it was bespoke) knowing that I would not get the RRP as was listed, the original amount offered was declined but I accepted the increased offer.

At the end of the day the insurers will want to save costs as much as possible and why wouldn't they, so I played the game and got what the bike was worth in all reality, I went in high, they went in low and we met in the middle somewhere.

With regards to Leigh day, sorry to say but they are carp, always felt as if they just wanted their commission and couldn't give a toss about me or what position I was going to be left in, felt like I was battling with the TPI and my solicitor at times!

apreading

Just realised how great the internet is. I keep all online purchase emails in a folder so can evidence not only the cost and date of various upgrades but the fact that the bike was regularly maintained with several new cassettes, chains, chainrings, bottom brackets, new brake calipers/levers, rotors, pads, cables etc - there is actually little of the bike that is 4 years old, just the frame, forks, bars and seatpost really... Hopefully this will help my case that the bike was to all intents and purposes 'new'.

dork_knight

I've currently got an open case with Leigh Day from a week before Christmas, communication with them has always been very good and pretty fast ~ When the solicitor has been out of the office emails are forwarded and dealt with by what I presume is an assistant.

They also didn't mention anything when I provided an assessment report from the LBS, this included the new value of items but I presume the other party could question it in time.

These things seem pretty drawn out due to the time frames each party has to respond, I just want to get a new bike ready to go although I don't start advanced rehabilitation until the end of this month.

Good luck with it, I guess you could always escalate your concerns through a line manager at Leigh Day.

apreading

Not quite ready to escalate, although I almost did when the paralegal assigned to me went off sick for a week, starting the day my case was assigned to her - but nobody told me this, kept promising me a call back next day but it didnt happen so I had to keep chasing... Anyway she is back now.

She has kind of agreed to send the estimate to the other side but warned me they may dispute as the bike was 4 years old. So I sent her evidence that its a bit like trigger's brush - there is very little of it that hasnt been replaced in the last year or so. Just waiting to see how she lays it out but I will argue with the other side if and when necessary...

apreading

On another note - how the hell did you guys cope with all the time off the bike while waiting/in rehabilitation - its doing my head in!!!

webboo

I'm currently off sick due to a ruptured Achilles. I've been in a cast/ air boot since January 19th, I can't drive so that's why I'm off work although I reply to my emails. So that takes up a couple of hours a day, then I browse this site and a couple of climbing forums. I look for cycling equipment I don't need.
I do some upper body weights and finger training, watch the telly. I can now go round with the vac and cook a meal.
But generally I'm bored out my mind.