lean and mean, or heavy and powerful

markhewitt1978

okgo wrote:

Muscle mass and being a strong cyclist have very little in common. That much is fairly obvious surely, the largest pro cyclists are still skinny men, with very few exceptions - even strongmen as they're known like Fabian and Tomek would look like skinny men in a bar with normal people.

Absolutely. When pro riders talk about putting on weight for the likes of flat TT's they are only talking 1-2kg and even then still lighter than most of us would consider lightweight!

Particularly notable when many riders who are quite a bit taller than me are still lighter than the weight I'm trying to aim for!

webboo

Given the OP said they are doing this event in a few months, there is not much time to gain any significant muscle mass in the time frame.
Unless

CornishInitBey

6'3 and 77-78KG best of both worlds 8)

Camcycle1974

CornishInitBey wrote:

6'3 and 77-78KG best of both worlds 8)

Wiggo was 70kgs at 6'3" when he won the TDF. I imagine his watts per kilo was over 6. Somehow he managed to maintain his power whilst being as light as possible for climbing. That is best of both worlds.

okgo

Its because the losing weight/power thing is largely bollox.

You can tell that the main reason he has gained weight since then is that he now doesn't have to be so careful about it all, and of course he's in the gym training like a sprinter (as is the way a TP is done these days I guess). He said in yesterdays interview that getting to that weight to win TDF was depressing and incredibly hard work.

ugo.santalucia

okgo wrote:

Its because the losing weight/power thing is largely bollox.

You can tell that the main reason he has gained weight since then is that he now doesn't have to be so careful about it all, and of course he's in the gym training like a sprinter (as is the way a TP is done these days I guess). He said in yesterdays interview that getting to that weight to win TDF was depressing and incredibly hard work.

Absolutely...
I would imagine someone like him can put maybe a pound of muscle mass where it can be helpful for the track by doing specific training, everything else is just a bit of fat under the skin.
The only athletes that put on huge amounts of muscle mass are athletics sprinters and we all know how they do it...

Camcycle1974

okgo wrote:

Its because the losing weight/power thing is largely bollox.

You can tell that the main reason he has gained weight since then is that he now doesn't have to be so careful about it all, and of course he's in the gym training like a sprinter (as is the way a TP is done these days I guess). He said in yesterdays interview that getting to that weight to win TDF was depressing and incredibly hard work.

I don't doubt it was hard work and miserable and that 70kgs is an unnatural weight at his height but you can't deny it worked!

CornishInitBey

okgo wrote:

Its because the losing weight/power thing is largely bollox.

You can tell that the main reason he has gained weight since then is that he now doesn't have to be so careful about it all, and of course he's in the gym training like a sprinter (as is the way a TP is done these days I guess). He said in yesterdays interview that getting to that weight to win TDF was depressing and incredibly hard work.

And many congratulations to him for that achievement, However - as i am not contending in this years tour or the Olympic time trial and not having the oodles of nutrional information and coaching Sir Wiggo had i believe my weight to be the best of worlds for myself

Eat well and train properly for your objectives should see you arrive for your event(s) in the best possible condition

At the age of 22 i really can't be ars*d to worry about it in any more complexity than that

okgo

I didn't say it didn't work. And to race up 50 min climbs with the best in the world, being fat is not going to cut it. You would be fat in the pro peloton, as I would. But as you say, who cares.

Just trying to debunk the oodles of utter garbage that people on bikeradar seem to spout. I mean, its a sportive for crying out loud, just get good at drafting, who cares about being fit when you can sit in and get your gold time?

964cup

okgo wrote:

Just trying to debunk the oodles of utter garbage that people on bikeradar seem to spout. I mean, its a sportive for crying out loud, just get good at drafting, who cares about being fit when you can sit in and get your gold time?

It's not a sportive. Well, it's not just a sportive. It's also - if you choose to enter it this way - a full-on closed-roads race, requiring a BC or international race licence, forming part of the UWCT Amateur World Tour and acting as a qualifier for the amateur World Championships in Perth later this year. So if someone wants to take it seriously, I think they're entitled to.

If nothing else, it means all club rides before it can legitimately be called "training rides" for once...

ugo.santalucia

964Cup wrote:

If nothing else, it means all club rides before it can legitimately be called "training rides" for once...

If training is the prelude to a competition, then sportives are competitions... they are not races, but they are competitive by nature... they are timed for one, which clearly idicates a competitive element and the majority of people see them as compeitions, with themselves or others... not races though... a race has a winner and all of that

bernithebiker

ugo.santalucia wrote:

964Cup wrote:

If nothing else, it means all club rides before it can legitimately be called "training rides" for once...

If training is the prelude to a competition, then sportives are competitions... they are not races, but they are competitive by nature... they are timed for one, which clearly idicates a competitive element and the majority of people see them as compeitions, with themselves or others... not races though... a race has a winner and all of that

What's the Etape then? A sportive last time I checked...and yes, there was a winner, Jeremy Bescond, who I know as it happens as he lives down the road from me......

The pace at the sharp end is always very, very fast.

ugo.santalucia

bernithebiker wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

964Cup wrote:

If nothing else, it means all club rides before it can legitimately be called "training rides" for once...

If training is the prelude to a competition, then sportives are competitions... they are not races, but they are competitive by nature... they are timed for one, which clearly idicates a competitive element and the majority of people see them as compeitions, with themselves or others... not races though... a race has a winner and all of that

What's the Etape then? A sportive last time I checked...and yes, there was a winner, Jeremy Bescond, who I know as it happens as he lives down the road from me......

The pace at the sharp end is always very, very fast.

In Italy and France, Sportifs and Granfondo are classified as races... you need a licence, medicals for competitive sport and all of that shabadan. Not sure Marmotte and Etape belong to that circuit though... they are probably a mixed bag

bernithebiker

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

964Cup wrote:

If nothing else, it means all club rides before it can legitimately be called "training rides" for once...

If training is the prelude to a competition, then sportives are competitions... they are not races, but they are competitive by nature... they are timed for one, which clearly idicates a competitive element and the majority of people see them as compeitions, with themselves or others... not races though... a race has a winner and all of that

What's the Etape then? A sportive last time I checked...and yes, there was a winner, Jeremy Bescond, who I know as it happens as he lives down the road from me......

The pace at the sharp end is always very, very fast.

In Italy and France, Sportifs and Granfondo are classified as races... you need a licence, medicals for competitive sport and all of that shabadan. Not sure Marmotte and Etape belong to that circuit though... they are probably a mixed bag

In France, as soon as you're timed in any way, you need a medical certificate. But otherwise, they're just like UK sportives (albeit better organised and cheaper!) But it's still not classified as a 'race' even though those at the front are very much racing.

The Etape certainly falls into that category.

diy

The fact that a sportif isn't a race, has little to do with the competitive nature and more to do with the criminal offences that would be committed by participants and organisers. Hence why timing and places are grouped.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/31

Its dodgy IMO, most people on a Sportif are trying to complete the ride as fast as they can even if they are only racing themselves

bigmat

As above, it is only when you are operating at the margins that losing weight might potentially equate to losing power. I doubt any of us are anywhere near that situation. The best advice to OP would be to aim to lose weight and increase power at the same time - I imagine a sensible programme of structured training between now and the Tour of Cambridge could achieve both aims simultaneously.

And yeah, a mass start sportive on closed roads, just pick a good group and enjoy the scenery / banter!

diy

On the telly last night they said sir wigo had put on 11kg in training for track - that's a big gain.

okgo

Go back and see my post.

Most of it due to not having to be thin now so letting his hair down somewhat on the food front, some of it due to specific training. Anyone who thinks he could not do the same thing by only gaining 5kg is kidding themselves.

relk

The only thing that matter, in terms of lean and mean vs heavy and powerful, is watts per kg. All your training should be directed towards getting a higher w/kg number.

bernithebiker

relk wrote:

The only thing that matter, in terms of lean and mean vs heavy and powerful, is watts per kg. All your training should be directed towards getting a higher w/kg number.

Does it not depend on where and how you ride though? Whilst I would agree that for the majority of cyclists, this makes the most sense, if you are a track sprinter, or if you ride in Holland or Norfolk all the time, weight becomes less critical, and watts more so.

When you are punching hard on the flat into a headwind, all you need is power.

Imagine a 60kg rider putting out 240W, = 4w/kg.

Now an 80kg rider putting out 300W = 3.75w/kg.

I would argue that the heavier rider would beat the lighter rider on the flat into a headwind. (Or even without a headwind for that matter).

P.S. I am a light rider (63kg) that does not make spectacular power figures, but hopefully a half decent w/kg.

Garry H

Lean and powerful is best

dastott

The most important thing is maintaining a decent aero position on the bike. Elbows bent if on the hoods, or spend as long as possible in the drops. So many riders neglect this and it can save a lot of energy.

CRAIGO5000

Interesting comparison there regarding a lightweight vs heavyweight into a wind.

Assuming both are around the same aero efficiency, wouldn't they just be a quick as each other for the same W/Kg output?

I'm 61Kg and FTP is 281. That puts my FTP/Kg at ~4.5W and I really struggle solo into headwinds!

stu-bim

W/kg don not count as much on the flat and expecially into headwids

That's were pur Watts is mort relevant given equal cda

svetty

Amazing how w/kg is seem by some as a mythic formula for success without qualifying the conditions. On climbs w/kg does equate pretty well to performance - especially on steeper terrain. However on the flat it is absolute watts and Cda that counts and weight is pretty much irrelevant.

bernithebiker

Svetty wrote:

Amazing how w/kg is seem by some as a mythic formula for success without qualifying the conditions. On climbs w/kg does equate pretty well to performance - especially on steeper terrain. However on the flat it is absolute watts and Cda that counts and weight is pretty much irrelevant.

This ^^, totally.

The only way it will help you being a skinny runt on the flat is a (hopefully) slight reduction in CdA, because your 'A' is less.

CRAIGO5000

That's why I'm crap riding solo into a wind.