Are mechanical drivetrains regressing?

ddraver

^^No it's not fair but its reality...

vrsmatt

I've just gone from 10spd Ultegra to 11sp 105 and the difference is marked, the 105 is silent, shifts crisply and is just 'better' feeling all round, I'd say the shift action is a little light but the shift quality, especially the front shift is exceptional, I wouldn't say drivetrains are regressing at all judging by the new 11sp 105. All IMO of course

dangardner27

From everything posted, is it that the last "over engineered" Shimano groupsets were the 6600 and 7800's? Bit like Mercs from the 80's. Built to last.

ugo.santalucia

dangardner27 wrote:

From everything posted, is it that the last "over engineered" Shimano groupsets were the 6600 and 7800's? Bit like Mercs from the 80's. Built to last.

People judge shifting by how buttery it is... every new shifter is buttery, problem is they don't remember how the older was when it was new. I don't judge Shimano, as I have never opened one, but I remember how rapidly 5600 use to wear out (not to speak about how rapidly it used to fray cables).

Different story for Campagnolo, as I have opened and serviced a few Ergos, since it was possible to do so and I have seen the changes inside

roger_merriman

From a company's point of view, how many are going to keep a group set for x amount of years or put 30000 miles on it?

There are a lot of bikes even nice ones that get relighted to the depths of the shed to barely see light of day ever.

And a lot of bikes are in a bit of a state, a ride around Richmond Park or such like and you can hear the grinding of gears that need some TLC.

ddraver

Delete - wrong thread

Giraffoto

... the shifter paddle is a piece of glorified plastic

So is a carbon fibre frame for that matter! My bike has 5800 105 derailleurs and shifters, and it all works in near silence. The shifts are very precise and quiet too. So new stuff can be just as pracise, quiet and yes, buttery smooth as old stuff.

on-yer-bike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Some do some don't. I never looked at Shimano but if you open A Campagnolo Veloce 9 speed ergo lever (Mach 2) ca. 2000 and then open the same lever as a 10 speed (Mach 3) ca. 2010 you can see the regression. Some components that used to made of steel or aluminium to last are now made of a plastic to save weight and cost, but they are not so durable (ratchets, shifter paddle and others). Things might be better on the upper end and it might well be that my pair of Record levers will last 10 years, but certainly they don't feel anything special in terms of quality... the shifter paddle is a piece of glorified plastic

Even Super record is made of plastic now. But is that bad? I dont know.

robbo2011

ugo.santalucia wrote:

There is no communism... it's just two different aspects of consumerism.

The way it used to be was that things were good and expensive, you had to save for X time to buy them... they were good and they lasted. After Y time you needed/wanted some new ones and you saved for X time to buy them

Now things are cheap and less good, you buy mountains of them on credit, they last enough, but that doesn't matter as in 3 months time you'll replace them wih something else bought cheap on credit.

Unsurprisingly, the latter system seems to spin more money and is endorsed by all western countries because it also brings more revenue.

The fact that as a result the majority of people live with an increasing level of personal debt is an extra bonus, as it means they can be controlled more easily (they'll be keener to work harder to pay those debts, fewer strikes, fewer problems... )

It's pretty clear where I stand on the all matter... call me communist if you want, in Italy it was never an insult...

I personally wouldn't call you a communist, just a grumpy old man

ugo.santalucia

on-yer-bike wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Some do some don't. I never looked at Shimano but if you open A Campagnolo Veloce 9 speed ergo lever (Mach 2) ca. 2000 and then open the same lever as a 10 speed (Mach 3) ca. 2010 you can see the regression. Some components that used to made of steel or aluminium to last are now made of a plastic to save weight and cost, but they are not so durable (ratchets, shifter paddle and others). Things might be better on the upper end and it might well be that my pair of Record levers will last 10 years, but certainly they don't feel anything special in terms of quality... the shifter paddle is a piece of glorified plastic

Even Super record is made of plastic now. But is that bad? I dont know.

It is bad... I had a box of campag spares including 2 paddle shifters... they've all gone, sold them to people who broke theirs.
The ratchets inside is a worse case, as they are hearder to replace and don't come as spares anymore, so you need to source them from broken shifters.
It means they have become disposable items, which is OK if they are cheap and nasty, but not when you pay hundreds of pounds for them

thegreatdivide

My SR shifters are still going strong after 5 years and thousands and thousands of miles and they’ve never needed a single adjustment/repair. But hey, I've got Zipp hubs that haven't killed me and a Garmin 810 that's worked faultlessly after every software upgrade so I must be some kind of bullet dodging lucky guy…or is it just that people believe all the scare stories that appear on forums whenever a very small minority take a hissy fit over something that broke?

ugo.santalucia

thegreatdivide wrote:

My SR shifters are still going strong after 5 years and thousands and thousands of miles and they’ve never needed a single adjustment/repair. But hey, I've got Zipp hubs that haven't killed me and a Garmin 810 that's worked faultlessly after every software upgrade so I must be some kind of bullet dodging lucky guy…or is it just that people believe all the scare stories that appear on forums whenever a very small minority take a hissy fit over something that broke?

The all idea behind "Shimergo" conversions was that 15 years ago Shimano made great and cheap componentry but unreliable shifters that wore quickly, frayed cables etc... while Campagnolo made great groupsets but expensive... hence Shimergo was the best of both worlds, a botch up for those who care more about reliability than appearance. Now that the two systems are fully compatible, how many people do you see with Shimergo setups? None (except me of course) and the reason is Campagnolo shifters are no longer the kind of stuff that lasts for decades and can be repaired... would I pay premium to buy Chorus over Ultegra? Probably not, but 10-15 years ago I would have gone for Chorus over 6500-6600.

We are talking a different language... of course they are good and reliable, but are they AS good and reliable AS they were? No, they are not

vrsmatt

I'll say it again, if mechanical drivetrains are regressing why is 11sp 105 so damn good? It kicks 6700 Ultegra's ass as far as i'm concerned

Alex99

VRSMatt wrote:

I'll say it again, if mechanical drivetrains are regressing why is 11sp 105 so damn good? It kicks 6700 Ultegra's ass as far as i'm concerned

That's a good question. A lot of the discussion has been about long term reliability, whilst the OP's question was more about 'smoothness'. 6700 is still pretty recent to my mind. How about 5800 vs 6600? 6600 looks like a different generation (standard chainrings, gear cables not under bar tape and silver metal stuff). 6600 and 7800 always looked quality to me with shiny metal. It all went funny after that with loads of powder coating and patches of coarse finish on components.

vrsmatt

You are then saying by default that the 6700 Ultegra isn't as good as the 6600 Ultegra? For me the performance of groupsets gets better every time they bring out a new one, I cant remember the last time a new gruppo came out and I thought it was a step back.

Obviously some folks will prefer a clunkier more mechanical feel to shifts etc but for me the new 105 11sp highlights exactly how I think the OP isn't right.

Alex99

VRSMatt wrote:

You are then saying by default that the 6700 Ultegra isn't as good as the 6600 Ultegra? For me the performance of groupsets gets better every time they bring out a new one, I cant remember the last time a new gruppo came out and I thought it was a step back.

Obviously some folks will prefer a clunkier more mechanical feel to shifts etc but for me the new 105 11sp highlights exactly how I think the OP isn't right.

No, not saying that. Just wondering and speculating based on limited information 'cause it's interesting. It might be a flimsy argument, but shiny metal says quality to me. But, I've not ridden loads of different groupsets.

earth

Alex99 wrote:

They are both noisy from just the chain running over the pulleys, almost like they don't mesh properly with the pitch.

I've used Shimano from Tiagra 4500 up to Ultegra 6700 and I've always found it is noisy just from the chain over the jockey wheels. As you say it's as if the jockey wheel teeth are the wrong size.

I have SRAM Apex on another bike and it is silent except when changing sprockets. Then there is a click-clunk which I quite like.