Are mechanical drivetrains regressing?
dangardner27
Posts: 118
Just built up and ridden my new winter bike adorned with revamped Ultegra SL drivetrain, with new rear derailleur, chainrings, cassette and chain and I honestly think it is way nicer in every way than the 11 speed Ultegra on my summer bike.
It's difficult to describe in writing, but the Ultegra SL has such buttery smooth shifts, completely silent running, stiff and works perfectly with my old 5700 105 STI's as well. IMO the 6650 drivetrain is just streets ahead in use compared to the 6800.
Perhaps the manufacturers R&D budgets are being utilised mainly with electronic advances to the detriment of mechanical?
It's difficult to describe in writing, but the Ultegra SL has such buttery smooth shifts, completely silent running, stiff and works perfectly with my old 5700 105 STI's as well. IMO the 6650 drivetrain is just streets ahead in use compared to the 6800.
Perhaps the manufacturers R&D budgets are being utilised mainly with electronic advances to the detriment of mechanical?
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'buttery smooth shifts' - ban yourself from the forum now!0
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LOL. Better than awkward and sticky!!0
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dangardner27 wrote:Just built up and ridden my new winter bike adorned with revamped Ultegra SL drivetrain, with new rear derailleur, chainrings, cassette and chain and I honestly think it is way nicer in every way than the 11 speed Ultegra on my summer bike.
It's difficult to describe in writing, but the Ultegra SL has such buttery smooth shifts, completely silent running, stiff and works perfectly with my old 5700 105 STI's as well. IMO the 6650 drivetrain is just streets ahead in use compared to the 6800.
Perhaps the manufacturers R&D budgets are being utilised mainly with electronic advances to the detriment of mechanical?
One might wonder if they have let mechanical groups slide on purpose to get people onto the next thing. I don't have top end equipment, but this is my current experience. On two bikes, I have a tiagra and a 105 rear der. They are both noisy from just the chain running over the pulleys, almost like they don't mesh properly with the pitch. Both have loads of lateral play in the pivot at the mounting bolt. I don't think they're trying very hard to make good stuff. They basically work OK most of the time, but are just a bit crap.
I think you're asking if they are intentionally letting them slip? I'd presume that they are always looking to drive the cost of manufacture down, and now since e.g. Ultegra mechanical is effectively their fourth tier road group (below DA mech, DA Di2, ultegra Di2), it may well lose features and become a less polished group.0 -
dangardner27 wrote:but the Ultegra SL has such buttery smooth shifts,
Probably because of the different cable routing.0 -
thegreatdivide wrote:'buttery smooth shifts' - ban yourself from the forum now!
The bike also 'surges forward with every turn of the pedals'....0 -
Cable routing is under tape (5700 105 STI'S) - so can't be that. All joking apart it really is a noticeable difference. Even using old Shimano cables.0
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Sounds to me like some here need to get their bikes set up properly or check to see that nothing has worked itself loose. I've got both Tiagra 4600 and Ultegra 6800. The latter is undoubtedly better but they both work exactly as intended, neither are noisy and both are well put together. Please don't take this as a dig - not meant to be.Cannondale Synapse Carbon Ultegra
Kinesis Racelight 4S
Specialized Allez Elite (Frame/Forks for sale)
Specialized Crosstrail Comp Disk (For sale)0 -
No offence taken at all / bike is indexed correctly etc etc. I think Alex99 is spot on, the quality of the product is slipping, manufacturers cutting costs.0
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Imposter wrote:thegreatdivide wrote:'buttery smooth shifts' - ban yourself from the forum now!
The bike also 'surges forward with every turn of the pedals'....
Does it also handle like its on rails?
Can you feel the extra stiffness from the 4% stiffer b/b?
Does it want to make you ride faster all the time?
Did you lead out the chain gang with your local super fast club group?
Pray tell .............Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am
De Sisti wrote:
This is one of the silliest threads I've come across.
Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honoursmithy21 wrote:
He's right you know.0 -
Matthewfalle wrote:Imposter wrote:thegreatdivide wrote:'buttery smooth shifts' - ban yourself from the forum now!
The bike also 'surges forward with every turn of the pedals'....
Does it also handle like its on rails?
Can you feel the extra stiffness from the 4% stiffer b/b?
Does it want to make you ride faster all the time?
Did you lead out the chain gang with your local super fast club group?
Pray tell .............
Can also stop on a dime0 -
ayjaycee wrote:Sounds to me like some here need to get their bikes set up properly or check to see that nothing has worked itself loose. I've got both Tiagra 4600 and Ultegra 6800. The latter is undoubtedly better but they both work exactly as intended, neither are noisy and both are well put together. Please don't take this as a dig - not meant to be.
No offence, taken. It is possible I'm missing something in the setup. I don't know what it would be though... and nothing I can do would make the mech less wobbly on the mounting pivot. I guess chain length could have an impact on how the chain runs over the jockey wheels, but I'm careful with the setup... can't be far out if at all. It's not an indexing issue... on friction downtube shifters on one bike.0 -
My Ultegra 6800 is certainly noisy - the only thing I can think of is that the B-knuckle screw thingum is virtually unused as the mech always hangs down way below the bottom of the cassette - I wonder if I ve been a bit too careful with sizing the chain and a few links could do with coming out...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:My Ultegra 6800 is certainly noisy - the only thing I can think of is that the B-knuckle screw thingum is virtually unused as the mech always hangs down way below the bottom of the cassette - I wonder if I ve been a bit too careful with sizing the chain and a few links could do with coming out...
Certainly sounds that way!0 -
ddraver wrote:...means getting another one of them stupid bloody pins though
or a quick link?www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes0 -
Some do some don't. I never looked at Shimano but if you open A Campagnolo Veloce 9 speed ergo lever (Mach 2) ca. 2000 and then open the same lever as a 10 speed (Mach 3) ca. 2010 you can see the regression. Some components that used to made of steel or aluminium to last are now made of a plastic to save weight and cost, but they are not so durable (ratchets, shifter paddle and others). Things might be better on the upper end and it might well be that my pair of Record levers will last 10 years, but certainly they don't feel anything special in terms of quality... the shifter paddle is a piece of glorified plasticleft the forum March 20230
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dangardner27 wrote:Cable routing is under tape (5700 105 STI'S) - so can't be that. All joking apart it really is a noticeable difference. Even using old Shimano cables.
Ah ok thought you were talking about Ultegra SL shifters.0 -
Maybe 11 speed is pushing it to far a regards to indexing shifting smoothness etc.0
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ugo.santalucia wrote:Some do some don't. I never looked at Shimano but if you open A Campagnolo Veloce 9 speed ergo lever (Mach 2) ca. 2000 and then open the same lever as a 10 speed (Mach 3) ca. 2010 you can see the regression. Some components that used to made of steel or aluminium to last are now made of a plastic to save weight and cost, but they are not so durable (ratchets, shifter paddle and others). Things might be better on the upper end and it might well be that my pair of Record levers will last 10 years, but certainly they don't feel anything special in terms of quality... the shifter paddle is a piece of glorified plastic
Ugo, Ugo, Ugo...your such a Luddite!
There's nothing wrong with new 10/11 speed Campagnolo shifters. They do the job just fine and if taken care of they'll last for a good while.0 -
Moonbiker wrote:Maybe 11 speed is pushing it to far a regards to indexing shifting smoothness etc.
Total nonsense.0 -
thegreatdivide wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Some do some don't. I never looked at Shimano but if you open A Campagnolo Veloce 9 speed ergo lever (Mach 2) ca. 2000 and then open the same lever as a 10 speed (Mach 3) ca. 2010 you can see the regression. Some components that used to made of steel or aluminium to last are now made of a plastic to save weight and cost, but they are not so durable (ratchets, shifter paddle and others). Things might be better on the upper end and it might well be that my pair of Record levers will last 10 years, but certainly they don't feel anything special in terms of quality... the shifter paddle is a piece of glorified plastic
Ugo, Ugo, Ugo...your such a Luddite!
There's nothing wrong with new 10/11 speed Campagnolo shifters. They do the job just fine and if taken care of they'll last for a good while.
Wrong... lots of broken Veloce and Centaur around... I have a pair I kept for spares... it died when the plastic ratched worn out. The older 9 speed Veloce were indestructible, they still sell well on Ebay. even when used and 15 years old. I had a pair of Veloce 10 and they just rattled all the bleeding time, the 9 speed never let me down and I got them used.
Chorus/Record might be better... the Record 11 I have don't rattle and seem to cope well even if paired with a much harder to shift XT derailleurleft the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:thegreatdivide wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Some do some don't. I never looked at Shimano but if you open A Campagnolo Veloce 9 speed ergo lever (Mach 2) ca. 2000 and then open the same lever as a 10 speed (Mach 3) ca. 2010 you can see the regression. Some components that used to made of steel or aluminium to last are now made of a plastic to save weight and cost, but they are not so durable (ratchets, shifter paddle and others). Things might be better on the upper end and it might well be that my pair of Record levers will last 10 years, but certainly they don't feel anything special in terms of quality... the shifter paddle is a piece of glorified plastic
Ugo, Ugo, Ugo...your such a Luddite!
There's nothing wrong with new 10/11 speed Campagnolo shifters. They do the job just fine and if taken care of they'll last for a good while.
Wrong... lots of broken Veloce and Centaur around... I have a pair I kept for spares... it died when the plastic ratched worn out. The older 9 speed Veloce were indestructible, they still sell well on Ebay. even when used and 15 years old. I had a pair of Veloce 10 and they just rattled all the bleeding time, the 9 speed never let me down and I got them used.
Chorus/Record might be better... the Record 11 I have don't rattle and seem to cope well even if paired with a much harder to shift XT derailleur
If true (and Ugo didn't just get unlucky) this sounds like a good reason to stay away from Campag (yes, I know it's heresy - just tie me to the stake and light the fire).Cannondale Synapse Carbon Ultegra
Kinesis Racelight 4S
Specialized Allez Elite (Frame/Forks for sale)
Specialized Crosstrail Comp Disk (For sale)0 -
ayjaycee wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:thegreatdivide wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Some do some don't. I never looked at Shimano but if you open A Campagnolo Veloce 9 speed ergo lever (Mach 2) ca. 2000 and then open the same lever as a 10 speed (Mach 3) ca. 2010 you can see the regression. Some components that used to made of steel or aluminium to last are now made of a plastic to save weight and cost, but they are not so durable (ratchets, shifter paddle and others). Things might be better on the upper end and it might well be that my pair of Record levers will last 10 years, but certainly they don't feel anything special in terms of quality... the shifter paddle is a piece of glorified plastic
Ugo, Ugo, Ugo...your such a Luddite!
There's nothing wrong with new 10/11 speed Campagnolo shifters. They do the job just fine and if taken care of they'll last for a good while.
Wrong... lots of broken Veloce and Centaur around... I have a pair I kept for spares... it died when the plastic ratched worn out. The older 9 speed Veloce were indestructible, they still sell well on Ebay. even when used and 15 years old. I had a pair of Veloce 10 and they just rattled all the bleeding time, the 9 speed never let me down and I got them used.
Chorus/Record might be better... the Record 11 I have don't rattle and seem to cope well even if paired with a much harder to shift XT derailleur
If true (and Ugo didn't just get unlucky) this sounds like a good reason to stay away from Campag (yes, I know it's heresy - just tie me to the stake and light the fire).
Not necessarily, it just brings campag in line with the competition, while 15-20 years ago it was betterleft the forum March 20230 -
I think cable routing plays a massive part too, my first road bike was a Colnago AC-R that has internal routing and 10 speed 105. Its always been a pig to change the front mech, its soo stiff due to the sharp bend around the BB and the indexing on the rear i can never get 100%. I have changed cables and outers twice since i got the bike in 2014 and its never felt amazing.
In jan i bought a 2015 Colnago CX Zero alloy, it has external cable routing and 11 speed 105. It took me litterally 10 mins, if that to index the gears and i nearly snapped the left shifter off from pressing it so hard compared to the AC-R, on the CX i can shift the front easily with one finger and all gears shift smoothly.My winter bike is exactly the same as my summer bike,,, but dirty...0 -
IME, 6800 is a bit more sensitive to chain length than 10 speed (Tiagra, 5600/5700 105) setups are, and it likes the b-screw to be set pretty accurately. Front mech requires a lot more care in setting up, and a fair bit more cable tension. Once set up right, though, it runs like a Swiss watch.
It might be voodoo thinking on my part, but I find I need to clean/relube the chain a little more frequently to maintain absolute silence.0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:thegreatdivide wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Some do some don't. I never looked at Shimano but if you open A Campagnolo Veloce 9 speed ergo lever (Mach 2) ca. 2000 and then open the same lever as a 10 speed (Mach 3) ca. 2010 you can see the regression. Some components that used to made of steel or aluminium to last are now made of a plastic to save weight and cost, but they are not so durable (ratchets, shifter paddle and others). Things might be better on the upper end and it might well be that my pair of Record levers will last 10 years, but certainly they don't feel anything special in terms of quality... the shifter paddle is a piece of glorified plastic
Ugo, Ugo, Ugo...your such a Luddite!
There's nothing wrong with new 10/11 speed Campagnolo shifters. They do the job just fine and if taken care of they'll last for a good while.
Wrong... lots of broken Veloce and Centaur around... I have a pair I kept for spares... it died when the plastic ratched worn out. The older 9 speed Veloce were indestructible, they still sell well on Ebay. even when used and 15 years old. I had a pair of Veloce 10 and they just rattled all the bleeding time, the 9 speed never let me down and I got them used.
Chorus/Record might be better... the Record 11 I have don't rattle and seem to cope well even if paired with a much harder to shift XT derailleur
How long is long enough? Time isn't a good measure of how many miles a bike has done. I have 2010 Centaur levers on my Ribble. There is a worn bush on one of the shift levers so I can wobble it a bit from side to side but it doesn't rattle. Must be on about 30,000 miles of daily use by now. Never been touched aside from the odd squirt of TF2. Tendency to eat shifter cables a bit but the spare set of shifters I bought have now been sat on a shelf for three years waiting for something to happen which doesn't happen!
Engineering degradation does seem a sad inevitability. People don't want engineering excellence (eg old Campag or Saab cars); they want the superficial appearance of engineering excellence (eg possibly more recent Campag and Audi cars). Inherent quality doesn't really matter if you are going to chuck the item away after three years anyway.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf F wrote:
Engineering degradation does seem a sad inevitability. People don't want engineering excellence (eg old Campag or Saab cars); they want the superficial appearance of engineering excellence (eg possibly more recent Campag and Audi cars). Inherent quality doesn't really matter if you are going to chuck the item away after three years anyway.
I think Campagnolo, like others, are adapting to extreme consumerism. They used to come out with a new product every 5 years or so, which means any product had to work flawlessly for at least 5 years, possibly more, as you have to account for those customers who want to retain the older product a bit longer. In practice some of their products could easily last a decade of heavy use. Their groupsets were expensive, but they were designed and manufactured to outlast the competition... resale value was high, so it was seen as an investment.
Now they have to sell groupsets in a market that every season wants something new... Shimano is good at that, they have a huge range of products that keep tweaking to make it look new, innovative and so much better... price point is lower.
Inevitably, Campagnolo can only retain quality at the top end of their range, where money is no object. Veloce, Centaur and Athena are cheap products designed to satisfy customers who will get bored and want something new without having to flog a small fortune every time.
People think they want quality and durability, but the amount of near new stuff flogged on a daily basis in the classified section goes to show that this is clearly not the case. These days I only buy consumables and clothes from new, if I want a frame, shifters or something expensive I just source it from the classifieds... last year I got a pair of Record shifters for 70 quid... one of them was scratched...
left the forum March 20230 -
No one came here for a lesson on Communism Ugo
However, you have a point. But I also think that the insane prices you can get things off the internet helps/adds to the problem. I'm looking at an Alps Trip in the summer and so I would like to convert me 6800 to 50/34 and put a massive cassette on. Now I reckon that that would cost me the best part of 300Eur to do at RRP (2 rings, cassette and long cage rear mech). However for 350Eur I can buy a full, latest model 105 groupset and get my old frame up and running again and just swap the stuff around for those 2 weeks - why would I not do that?We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:No one came here for a lesson on Communism Ugo
However, you have a point. But I also think that the insane prices you can get things off the internet helps/adds to the problem. I'm looking at an Alps Trip in the summer and so I would like to convert me 6800 to 50/34 and put a massive cassette on. Now I reckon that that would cost me the best part of 300Eur to do at RRP (2 rings, cassette and long cage rear mech). However for 350Eur I can buy a full, latest model 105 groupset and get my old frame up and running again and just swap the stuff around for those 2 weeks - why would I not do that?
To be fair, not fair comparing rrp to discounted groupset price. In reality, your rings should cost £50 (should being the operative word. Of course Shimano doesn't usually let you get away with using off the shelf Stronglight or TA rings as you can with Campag), the cassette £35 (?) and the rear mech £50 maybe; could be done for quite a bit less as well I would expect.
But, if you have an old bike waiting for a groupset then that's a different, but individual, story.Faster than a tent.......0 -
There is no communism... it's just two different aspects of consumerism.
The way it used to be was that things were good and expensive, you had to save for X time to buy them... they were good and they lasted. After Y time you needed/wanted some new ones and you saved for X time to buy them
Now things are cheap and less good, you buy mountains of them on credit, they last enough, but that doesn't matter as in 3 months time you'll replace them wih something else bought cheap on credit.
Unsurprisingly, the latter system seems to spin more money and is endorsed by all western countries because it also brings more revenue.
The fact that as a result the majority of people live with an increasing level of personal debt is an extra bonus, as it means they can be controlled more easily (they'll be keener to work harder to pay those debts, fewer strikes, fewer problems... )
It's pretty clear where I stand on the all matter... call me communist if you want, in Italy it was never an insult... left the forum March 20230
