Power meter selection

northcliff66

I am about to push the button on some Powertap pedals.

Anyone out there with some experience that might suggest this is a bad idea/can be bettered?

1. Best deal I can find is CRC with 10% BC discount, so about £900 delivered.
2. I know its a lot of money, but I need to be able to carry my PM in hand baggage and the Plod at Gatwick and Heathrow have stopped me carrying Stages before as they look like a weapon. :shock: Yes, I have tried persuading them otherwise.
3. I am happy to stick with Look Keo cleats.
4. I have read everything from DC Rainmaker.

Missed anything?

nicklong

Only heard good things about these pedals. Garmin Vector 2's can be had for a similar price from some of the German retailers - Wiggle can price match if you want to shop from the UK.

As an aside however, Airport security also take a dim view of pedal wrenches and torque wrenches in hand luggage - my mate had to leave those behind, he wasn't happy...

redvision

I love my p1s.

Had a niggle with the first set I had - bearings were rough & the right pedal wasn't paired with the left (this had even PT baffled ). Anyway, they were exchanged and no probs with the replacements.

I have only had a few weeks use out of them due to injury but have been very impressed.

The ease in which you can swap between bikes is fantastic. The readings are consistent (a bit depressing as well :oops:) & there is so much data produced that it really does help you improve, even in just a short period of time - IF you are prepared to look at the data & understand it.

Is probably worth noting there have been one or two reports of data drops/inconsistencies on long climbs, although I have experienced no such issue.
From the forums it looks like these readings were likely caused by the use of 'ordinary' aaa batteries (alkaline) so make sure you stick to lithium or good rechargeable ones.

I do have a couple of criticisms though. The first is the cleats. They wear very very quickly, so try to avoid walking on them where possible.

The second is the lack of an android app. At the moment you can only update the pedals with an apple device. PT have been promising an android app for months now but there is still nothing.

Summary, if you can afford them & are prepared to look at & use the data then get them! You won't be disappointed.

northcliff66

Many thanks.

StillGoing

You can get a Power2max for less money.

Grill

philthy3 wrote:

You can get a Power2max for less money.

This.

frisbee

philthy3 wrote:

You can get a Power2max for less money.

And you can get a powertap C1 for even less, and if airport security ask you can just claim it's a large ninja throwing star.

redvision

Grill wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

You can get a Power2max for less money.

This.

The advantages of the P1s are the ease at which you can swap between bikes though.

meanredspider

Yes - there's a lot of possible reasons that P2M might not suit. 3 off the top of my head

1. Different size chain rings on different bikes
2. Different cranks and BBs on your bikes (1x, 2x, 3x etc)
3. Transportability in hand baggage
and so on.

Pedals is conceptually the best though the executions aren't always great.

cal_stewart

I just want a speedplay based pedal system

neeb

Cal_Stewart wrote:

I just want a speedplay based pedal system

Me too. Surprised they haven't come up with one yet given the initial research by Metrigear, I wonder if the problem is the small pedal platform. What would be really great would be a Speedplay CLEAT based PM, so you wouldn't even have to swap the pedals between bikes... possible?

northcliff66

meanredspider wrote:

Yes - there's a lot of possible reasons that P2M might not suit. 3 off the top of my head

1. Different size chain rings on different bikes
2. Different cranks and BBs on your bikes (1x, 2x, 3x etc)
3. Transportability in hand baggage
and so on.

Pedals is conceptually the best though the executions aren't always great.

Right on all three. I am not interested in crank based systems. With multiple bikes in multiple locations the portability and data consistency on pedal based is the best solution for me.

Was about to order today and now I see Wiggle offering them for less, albeit no stock for a week or so. Might wait and see.

johnny25

The P1's are very good. Like others have mentioned, the key point for me was been able to swap them between bikes in less than 5 mins. Calibration is simple too (Garmin 520).

2 months in and there's a noticeable improvement with my overall performance, which is why I invested in a power meter.

Nb - It's a steep learning curve if you want to understand all the data they produce and how it relates to performance improvements! (You'll certainly need to use a good software package to get the full benefits.)

spasypaddy

neeb wrote:

Cal_Stewart wrote:

I just want a speedplay based pedal system

Me too. Surprised they haven't come up with one yet given the initial research by Metrigear, I wonder if the problem is the small pedal platform. What would be really great would be a Speedplay CLEAT based PM, so you wouldn't even have to swap the pedals between bikes... possible?

check out brim brothers.

however if you have more than one pair of shoes then the cleat based solution doesnt work.

neeb

spasypaddy wrote:

neeb wrote:

Cal_Stewart wrote:

I just want a speedplay based pedal system

Me too. Surprised they haven't come up with one yet given the initial research by Metrigear, I wonder if the problem is the small pedal platform. What would be really great would be a Speedplay CLEAT based PM, so you wouldn't even have to swap the pedals between bikes... possible?

check out brim brothers.

however if you have more than one pair of shoes then the cleat based solution doesnt work.

Wow, thanks, didn't know about that. Now I feel I must look like a subtle spammer for B. Bros..

Looks like it's not quite ready yet though and that tests of pre-production versions showed less than great accuracy. I really hope this eventually comes through, although the story so far sounds remarkably similar to Metrigear...

Looks like I'm stuck with my two PT G3 hubs for the time being. Don't discount that option incidentally, the hubs are quite cheap now and if you have two you can have them built into different types of wheel, retain the option of easy swapping between bikes, but in practice rarely need to even do that.

Only problem is that getting new wheels becomes complicated, especially anything high-end. Carbon rims alone from the big brands seem largely impossible to source in the UK, so you either have to get cheap Chinese ones, go through Wheelbuilder in the States and pay the import tax, or buy complete wheelsets and rebuild the rear..

GGBiker

Funny, I've understood the data from my power meter for a few years, however only riding my bike more seems to bring any improvement in performance.

StillGoing

meanredspider wrote:

Yes - there's a lot of possible reasons that P2M might not suit. 3 off the top of my head

1. Different size chain rings on different bikes
2. Different cranks and BBs on your bikes (1x, 2x, 3x etc)
3. Transportability in hand baggage
and so on.

Pedals is conceptually the best though the executions aren't always great.

1. would certainly depend on the BCD but plenty of manufacturers are now making all chainring sizes in 130 BCD. Plus isn't the common standard now 52/36 available in 110 or 130 BCD.
2. I have 386 mega exo on one bike and a standard Engish thread on the other. With adapters my cranks (Rotor 3D24) interchange with no more time hassle than changing a set of pedals over.
3. I struggle to see the advantage of transporting a power meter in hand luggage if the bike is in a well padded bike bag anyway, but each to their own.

markyone

I have been looking at these p1 pedals and also the garmin vector dual sided and single sided cant make my mind up.
Will the single sided garmin give out the correct data?

northcliff66

markyone wrote:

I have been looking at these p1 pedals and also the garmin vector dual sided and single sided cant make my mind up.
Will the single sided garmin give out the correct data?

I have spent many hours on a Wattbike, so I know the power variance between my legs. When just spinning very gently, say at 120w, I may be at worse case 53%, 47% so a single legged system would be over or under reading 3.5w which to me is irrelevant.

At higher power levels, say 180w plus, there is almost no difference between my legs. I think this is because as it becomes harder my body is less able to deal with asymmetry so evens out.

On this basis I have decided that single sided systems are perfectly accurate enough for me, so I have used Stages for some time with no real issues (apart from a leaky battery cap which was replaced).

I am getting some pedal based stuff though for different reasons.

meanredspider

philthy3 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yes - there's a lot of possible reasons that P2M might not suit. 3 off the top of my head

1. Different size chain rings on different bikes
2. Different cranks and BBs on your bikes (1x, 2x, 3x etc)
3. Transportability in hand baggage
and so on.

Pedals is conceptually the best though the executions aren't always great.

1. would certainly depend on the BCD but plenty of manufacturers are now making all chainring sizes in 130 BCD. Plus isn't the common standard now 52/36 available in 110 or 130 BCD.
2. I have 386 mega exo on one bike and a standard Engish thread on the other. With adapters my cranks (Rotor 3D24) interchange with no more time hassle than changing a set of pedals over.
3. I struggle to see the advantage of transporting a power meter in hand luggage if the bike is in a well padded bike bag anyway, but each to their own.

Yeah - you can always find an exception but, like me, people have different bikes of different ages built with different kit. The Foil used to run 10-speed standard double, the Volagi 10-speed compact and the Jamis runs 11-sp compact (and, as the Cube was my winter commuter on ice tyres, that ran XT). The one thing that's standard on every bike I've ever come across is the pedals - giving full interchangeability and, with it, an ideal place to measure anything and everything you might want to about pedal action.
As for the handbaggage thing, you're just looking at it with your own paradigm - quite a few people either have bikes in more than one location (me for example) or go away for a weekend and hire a bike so the ability to take your power meter with you (some hire companies need you to provide your own pedals anyway) is a nice feature.

thomasmorris

philthy3 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yes - there's a lot of possible reasons that P2M might not suit. 3 off the top of my head

1. Different size chain rings on different bikes
2. Different cranks and BBs on your bikes (1x, 2x, 3x etc)
3. Transportability in hand baggage
and so on.

1. would certainly depend on the BCD but plenty of manufacturers are now making all chainring sizes in 130 BCD. Plus isn't the common standard now 52/36 available in 110 or 130 BCD.
2. I have 386 mega exo on one bike and a standard Engish thread on the other. With adapters my cranks (Rotor 3D24) interchange with no more time hassle than changing a set of pedals over.
3. I struggle to see the advantage of transporting a power meter in hand luggage if the bike is in a well padded bike bag anyway, but each to their own.

1. Shimano seem to be 4 bolt 110 which fit standard, mid compact and compact... however, it's still more faff changing rings as well as cranks. If you are putting the power meter on a hire bike there's still less chance your cranks will be cross compatible.
2. I have shimano BB on one bike and Works Manufacturing on the other, however, the FSA cranks on my P2M, despite being 24mm are so tight a fit they need a lot of persuasion to remove and install.
3. I agree, but I guess the OP has two bikes (or hiring) and is flying with hand luggage only?

I have a winter and summer bike and planned to swap my P2M between the two regularly. Two pinch bolts and a preload nut... hardly any more hassle than changing pedals I thought... However, the tight fit of the FSA ranks, the alloy FSA pre-load bolt that rounds out super easy, and the need to swap chainrings / adjust the front mech meant I've left the power meter on the winter bike for winter and will most likely just put up without having power on wet rides during the summer.

I've thought about making both bikes mid compact and getting rotor cranks (in the hope they install easier) to make moving from bike to bike less of a hassle. Do your Rotor3D24 fit in and out of shimano cups easy enough?

mpatts

I have a quarq elsa setup - takes about ten seconds to swap between bikes.

reasoning is partially aesthetic - the vectors (which was the only option when I was looking) are proper fugly (IMHP, of course).

I also averaged 450 watts for 5 hours on my first ride out, which is excellent*




*I called Dave B, he suggested I calibrate them then call him back to lead their TdF squad if it still read the same

Escher303

thomasmorris wrote:

I've thought about making both bikes mid compact and getting rotor cranks (in the hope they install easier) to make moving from bike to bike less of a hassle. Do your Rotor3D24 fit in and out of shimano cups easy enough?

Doesn't directly answer your question but I have a P2M on a SRAM Force 22 crank and swap between winter and summer bike: one with BB91 press fit GXP BB and one with english thread GXP thread BB. I use the same 52-36 Q rings on both bikes so only need to swap the crank. One has 105/Ultegra mix the other SRAM Red 10 speed with Force 22 front mech. Despite having Q rings and different setups swapping the crank takes a couple of minutes, one 8mm hex bolt and no adjustment of the shifting is required at all, dead easy. Just get on and ride. Perhaps it is a problem with just FSA or the amount of spacers you are using?

thomasmorris

I have shimano ultegra cranks on the winter bike (50-34), with standard english threaded BB.

The summer bike I have FSA Gossamer with P2M and 52-36 praxis rings with wheel manufacturing bottom bracket.

The problem isn't with the spacers, I only need one and they slide on and off easy. However, the FSA Gossamer crank spindle is so tight in both the ultegra and the Wheel Manufacturing bottom brackets that you have to mallet it in and out each time.

The FSA spindle is supposed to be 24 mm, just like the Ultegra, however, the ultegra needs one tap with a mallet and out it comes, however the FSA takes about 20 minutes of persuasion. Then on top of this the FSA pre-load nut rounds out very easy, I know you're not putting much torque through it, but it's a very long thread so it takes a lot of screwing each time you remove it (it's a known problem they wear out quickly). Then I have different sized rings, so have to either swap over rings or alter the front derailleur height. It all just adds up and makes what in theory should be a 5 minute job to change cranks in to a bit of PITA, and not something I'm arsed to do just to get power readings on my commute or the club run.

I think if I had a set of cranks matched up to P2M that slide in an out easier (Rotor 3d24 is my only option as SRAM won't fit an ultegra BB??), plus having the same size chainrings would make it a 5 minute job again, and something I would be happy doing one or twice a week.

The thing is, is the interface between the PM spider and the FSA / Rotor / SRAM cranks propriety and therefore not possible to get aftermarket? Rotor cranks are ~£150, a set of praxis chainrings would be £120. Seems a lot of money to spend just to make swapping easier, especially when you could buy a second power meter for just £200 more.

Update to include link to FSA Gossamer crank, comes up as 24.06mm: https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/3ohem5/fsa_gossamer_cranks_ultegra_6700_bb/

northcliff66

Anyone got experience of the break out force on the P1 pedals. ? My 12nm Keo Blades require ankle dislocation to dismount.

jimmurray

>> My 12nm Keo Blades require ankle dislocation to dismount.

Mines are the same. I find if I twist inwards rather than outwards they disengage a lot more easily.

StillGoing

thomasmorris wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yes - there's a lot of possible reasons that P2M might not suit. 3 off the top of my head

1. Different size chain rings on different bikes
2. Different cranks and BBs on your bikes (1x, 2x, 3x etc)
3. Transportability in hand baggage
and so on.

1. would certainly depend on the BCD but plenty of manufacturers are now making all chainring sizes in 130 BCD. Plus isn't the common standard now 52/36 available in 110 or 130 BCD.
2. I have 386 mega exo on one bike and a standard Engish thread on the other. With adapters my cranks (Rotor 3D24) interchange with no more time hassle than changing a set of pedals over.
3. I struggle to see the advantage of transporting a power meter in hand luggage if the bike is in a well padded bike bag anyway, but each to their own.

I've thought about making both bikes mid compact and getting rotor cranks (in the hope they install easier) to make moving from bike to bike less of a hassle. Do your Rotor3D24 fit in and out of shimano cups easy enough?

As long as you can get a BB for a 24mm axle, they should fit. My Reacto is BB385 mega eco which is more or less PF30. FSA adapters allow the 3D24 to slot in and out with no hassle. I can easily change them over to my Basso which has SRAM Red cranks normally and just change the BB for a Rotor one. I have the luxury of not having to mess about with chainrings and FD height as both bikes run the same diameter outer aero Q ring. If your frame has a threaded BB, Rotor will make a BB to fit.

schlepcycling

Escher303 wrote:

thomasmorris wrote:

I've thought about making both bikes mid compact and getting rotor cranks (in the hope they install easier) to make moving from bike to bike less of a hassle. Do your Rotor3D24 fit in and out of shimano cups easy enough?

Doesn't directly answer your question but I have a P2M on a SRAM Force 22 crank and swap between winter and summer bike: one with BB91 press fit GXP BB and one with english thread GXP thread BB. I use the same 52-36 Q rings on both bikes so only need to swap the crank. One has 105/Ultegra mix the other SRAM Red 10 speed with Force 22 front mech. Despite having Q rings and different setups swapping the crank takes a couple of minutes, one 8mm hex bolt and no adjustment of the shifting is required at all, dead easy. Just get on and ride. Perhaps it is a problem with just FSA or the amount of spacers you are using?

I have rotor 24mm cranks with a Power2max fitted which I swap between a BB86 pressfit BB and an 68mm English threaded outboard BB and it works with both set ups.

Escher303

thomasmorris wrote:

I have shimano ultegra cranks on the winter bike (50-34), with standard english threaded BB.

The summer bike I have FSA Gossamer with P2M and 52-36 praxis rings with wheel manufacturing bottom bracket.

The problem isn't with the spacers, I only need one and they slide on and off easy. However, the FSA Gossamer crank spindle is so tight in both the ultegra and the Wheel Manufacturing bottom brackets that you have to mallet it in and out each time.

The FSA spindle is supposed to be 24 mm, just like the Ultegra, however, the ultegra needs one tap with a mallet and out it comes, however the FSA takes about 20 minutes of persuasion. Then on top of this the FSA pre-load nut rounds out very easy, I know you're not putting much torque through it, but it's a very long thread so it takes a lot of screwing each time you remove it (it's a known problem they wear out quickly). Then I have different sized rings, so have to either swap over rings or alter the front derailleur height. It all just adds up and makes what in theory should be a 5 minute job to change cranks in to a bit of PITA, and not something I'm arsed to do just to get power readings on my commute or the club run.

I think if I had a set of cranks matched up to P2M that slide in an out easier (Rotor 3d24 is my only option as SRAM won't fit an ultegra BB??), plus having the same size chainrings would make it a 5 minute job again, and something I would be happy doing one or twice a week.

The thing is, is the interface between the PM spider and the FSA / Rotor / SRAM cranks propriety and therefore not possible to get aftermarket? Rotor cranks are ~£150, a set of praxis chainrings would be £120. Seems a lot of money to spend just to make swapping easier, especially when you could buy a second power meter for just £200 more.

Update to include link to FSA Gossamer crank, comes up as 24.06mm: https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/3ohem5/fsa_gossamer_cranks_ultegra_6700_bb/

Couldn't you solve the problem by using FSA BBs?

thomasmorris

My workswell frame is BBright. FSA don't make a bottom bracket for this|*, so you're stuck with aftermarket suppliers all of which just make to 24mm axel standard, which should fit shimano hollowtech, rotor3d24 and FSA... but FSA poor tolerance means that they are just really really tight.

It would be simple to get a FSA BB for the english threaded winter bike, but obviously this only solves half the problem. I'd also be worried when I put my ultegra cranks in they would be sloppy fit and creak.

All of this isn't really an issue if you're only removing cranks when changing bearings, and my power 2 max has been excellent. And it wouldn't be an issue if FSA could make their axle 24mm instead of 24.06mm! It seems a shame to have to shell out on a whole new Rotor crankset just to fix such a silly problem. I didn't really mean to derail this thread, but it's a good example of when compatibility theory falls down.

* correction they do, but they are press fit, rather than screw together, so probably creak, and they also require reducers to bring it down from 30 to 24mm... further increasing the chance of creaking.

northcliff66

Any recommendations on the best batteries for Powertap pedals?