Wheelset upgrade advice
new2br
Posts: 57
Hi sorry for yet another wheel upgrade post...
Anyway I'm riding a Cannondale SuperSix Evo (HM) with Mavic Kysrium Elite S wheels - they arent bad but just find them quite an effort to maintain higher speeds ie > 20-25mph on the flat/rolling terrain. So i figured I might benefit from areo type wheels.
Initially was looking mid depth aeros around 50-60mm max but as I preferred the convinience of Alu rims all the deeper carbon/alu clinchers seem a bit heavy (losing the benefit of a light frame), so am now looking at shallower rims that might also give a bit of aero advantage. My longer rides would include a few decent steady climbs.
So with budget of around £500 and looking at some well discounted wheels the 3 I'm considering are:
Zipp 30 - £410 (£590rrp)
RS81 c35 £350 (£599 rrp)
American Classic Aero 420 3 £499 (£619 rrp)
Can anyone give recommendations of which may be best, esp if you have experience of riding them for comparison - or indeed include a.n. other wheelset which are worth looking at. The only other wheel I have ridden apart from Mavic Kysrium are Campagnolo Zonda, which I must say are a great wee wheel, as good as the mavic which I got for half the price - so Ideally I'm looking something that is definately an upgrade.
As a curve ball although I say I prefer the convenience of Alu brake track however I have seen the likes of an all carbon clincher on ebay - carbonzone 50mm which is v cheap/light and seems to be built with decent components including Sapim XRay spokes and Novatec hubs which some much more expensive wheels use, so wondered in these Chinese imports as good quality or best avoided like some of the other chinese carbon rims.
Any advice much appreciated
Anyway I'm riding a Cannondale SuperSix Evo (HM) with Mavic Kysrium Elite S wheels - they arent bad but just find them quite an effort to maintain higher speeds ie > 20-25mph on the flat/rolling terrain. So i figured I might benefit from areo type wheels.
Initially was looking mid depth aeros around 50-60mm max but as I preferred the convinience of Alu rims all the deeper carbon/alu clinchers seem a bit heavy (losing the benefit of a light frame), so am now looking at shallower rims that might also give a bit of aero advantage. My longer rides would include a few decent steady climbs.
So with budget of around £500 and looking at some well discounted wheels the 3 I'm considering are:
Zipp 30 - £410 (£590rrp)
RS81 c35 £350 (£599 rrp)
American Classic Aero 420 3 £499 (£619 rrp)
Can anyone give recommendations of which may be best, esp if you have experience of riding them for comparison - or indeed include a.n. other wheelset which are worth looking at. The only other wheel I have ridden apart from Mavic Kysrium are Campagnolo Zonda, which I must say are a great wee wheel, as good as the mavic which I got for half the price - so Ideally I'm looking something that is definately an upgrade.
As a curve ball although I say I prefer the convenience of Alu brake track however I have seen the likes of an all carbon clincher on ebay - carbonzone 50mm which is v cheap/light and seems to be built with decent components including Sapim XRay spokes and Novatec hubs which some much more expensive wheels use, so wondered in these Chinese imports as good quality or best avoided like some of the other chinese carbon rims.
Any advice much appreciated
0
Comments
-
but just find them quite an effort to maintain higher speeds ie > 20-25mph on the flat/rolling terrain.
Isn't it the all point? Riding hard and suffering to go faster?
If you look at PROs training data on Strava, you'll see they find it pretty hard too, to keep 25 mph on the flat/rolling terrain
Moral: I think you are barking at the wrong tree, if that makes senseleft the forum March 20230 -
Anyway I'm riding a Cannondale SuperSix Evo (HM) with Mavic Kysrium Elite S wheels - they arent bad but just find them quite an effort to maintain higher speeds ie > 20-25mph on the flat/rolling terrain. So i figured I might benefit from areo type wheels.
You might benefit from improving your fitness, more than from buying a set of bling wheels. But if you want the wheels anyway, then most threads like this usually conclude with the suggestion of just buying the wheels you like the look of.0 -
Will any of those wheels be much of an improvement on your current wheels? I don't think so. Yes you might get a bit of an aero boost but they could fall short in other areas where your current wheels are strong. I think you're going to need to look higher up the ladder if you want some real benefits but I think you're asking a lot to be honest, it's always going to be tough maintaining 25mph on the flat.0
-
I may be overstating my abilities which I dont mean to as I'm not that good - I'm certainly not at Pro standards and dont race, but on calm days riding on my own on flat sections is 35-40+- kph on a 40k0km lap. I am a bit competitive (with myself) though and when training am alway trying to beat my PR's on strava, but the need for new wheels is really around this year I'm intending to enter quite a few Sportifs/Fondos where I might more importantly be able to conserve effort/energy over 150-200km distances.
Yeah many people just end up buying what looks best - if budget wasnt an issue I'd have already bought zipp 303 firecrest or Reynolds assualts by now - but I cant justify that expense.
So was hoping to find an upgrade wheelset around the £500 mark. From what I see the Zipp 30 and RS81 c35's are decent (though not sure how much cost is in just the name esp the zipps) and I'm also wondering if they are sort of 'end of life' in that they seem to still use the narrow rims wereas the new generation wheelsets seem to be going down the wider route to accommodate the 25mm+ tyres for better comfort/rolling resistance. The carbonzone all carbon clincher wheelsets look like they may be a cheap route to ticking the boxes but only if the wheels/components were good quality, even if it meant leaving them in to local wheelbuilder/lbs to get trued up which wouldnt be expensive.
Still if anyone can make any recommendation/comparison of the sets mention it would be helpful...
Cheers0 -
Today I was riding at 25mph quite comfortably with 32 spoke low profile wheels. The wind was behind me though.
Aero wheels will save 10W of power at around 25mph over what you have maybe. That equates not alot in terms of speed. You will not be riding much faster at all. On a TT they will save time though but time in a TT is important. Time saved on a strava segement well they are often not long enough anyway for the time difference to noticeable above other more important variables.
Riding at 25 mph is hard work. If the wind in zero and you have a good position you will be pushing 250W to 300+W depending on your size. That is hard work and it is good for you. Change your wheels and it is still hard work. Work is force x distance travelled in direction of the force. There is no getting away from it riding at 25mph is hard work.
Training should not involve trying to beat strava segments that is possible the worst way to train.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
OP, out of interest, have you actually done any rides longer/harder than a 40k/25 mile flat/rolling loop? If not, then you have more to think about than spending £600 on some new wheels. I am a fairly average club rider and when I do hilly 200k rides I find that wheels like the Zondas (or Kysriums) are pretty good...but by the end I don't usually end up obsessing about the wheels, just about digging in and finishing. In fact, a lot of my 200k rides are audaxes so I forego the bling and ride with something practical like a nice light set of 28/32 spoke handbuilts as I know they will increase my chances of finishing even if a spoke pops.0
-
Hummm, I'm getting the feeling the wheel upgrade may not make the noticable difference I was hoping for in a £500 investment (which is maybe not big money in terms of the cost of high end wheelset)...
Yip the distances I normally do in a ride have been increasing the past year so 25miles would be prob my shortest distance - like a quick lunchtime or evening spin or one journey if cycle to work, but more often its 30-40 mile (a ride) during the week and 50-60 at the weekend. Last year was a few 60/80 and 110 mile sportifs so training distances were increased accordingly, and yes breaking the 100 milers was more a case of getting round and trying to still feel strong or in decent shape for the last 10-20 miles so there was no notions of trying to break speed records on those occasions.
But like I say I mostly ride by myself, so its on those sportif rides when in groups that I notice the benefits of aero/slipstreaming. Obviously being towed behind someone is gonna be a massive advantage compared to just wheels alone but I just notice that I can comfortably sit with in the bunch of faster group and I can take my turn at the front but know its might hard to maintain the pace at the front - and so I got back to the notion that if aero or just better wheels can save me energy/effort, then over those longer distances it could just help and might have the knock-on benefit of making a better time more comfortably achievable.
I dont really just strava as a focus/goal of any training its just handy to keep track/log what I've done, and yes its inevitable that as many of the routes I do are the same/repeated that I compare previous efforts - which is not going to be v scientific as obviously factors like wind/traffic are never going to be identical. So yes just more of a carrot to help keep motivation...0 -
Have you considered planetx 52mm or 60mm clinchers? I note you are worried about carbon rims and weight. For flat/ rolling carbon rims are perfectly fine and if it is all out speed on that type of course then weight isn't such an issue.
It won't make a massive difference but aero wheels are faster.0 -
This is the problem. when doing a long ride in a group it matters little what wheels you have. It is important to pace yourself and if you are in a group then the slipstreaming will help vastly more than aero wheels.
Over 100 miles aero wheels will not help keep you in touch with a group there are way too many variables. Proper nutrition and training will.
Aero wheels will save time on a TT or if you are in a solo breakaway in a race. Otherwise people buy them because they make them feel better. I pretend to have mine for racing but really they make me feel better they don't help much if I get dropped.
I don't want to give the impression that aero kit does not help it does but do the cheap stuff first. Get tight fitting clothing that is comfortable. Actually it is not just clothing that is figure hugging it has to prevent you over heating as opening that jersey well that just ruins any aero gains you have. Good clothing helps alot. Also make sure your position is aerodynamic and work on staying in it. Shave your legs and arms when the weather is warmer that makes as much difference maybe more than wheels do and it's free apart from the cost of razors. Then things like aero wheels and frame will be the last piece of the puzzle. None of this though makes riding any easier or more fun. You just get to go a bit faster.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Keep your existing wheels and use the £500 to enter an Alpine Sportive. You'll remember the experience a lot longer than a wheel purchase that makes next to no difference in performance.0
-
Based on your list and budget, personally I would stick with what you've currently got.0
-
If you want to go faster - then I would say change your helmet to one of the new aero road lids. But Mavic Ksyriums are known to be very bad in the wind tunnel. Shimano's base models test surprisingly well though.0
-
Have you considered planetx 52mm or 60mm clinchers? I note you are worried about carbon rims and weight. For flat/ rolling carbon rims are perfectly fine and if it is all out speed on that type of course then weight isn't such an issue.
It won't make a massive difference but aero wheels are faster.
Yip had looked at Planet X - as seem to be popular in TT and Triathlon scene were the courses are prob not v hilly.
The 52 clincher I looked at first and then the CT45, but they doesnt seem to be much weight difference between them and both seemed a bit on the heavy side @ 1800g ish which might be grand on mostly flat but the occasions when I do hit the hills was worried might be a bit of a chore.
So thats one of the reasons why I started looking at slightly shallower hoping they would be lighter and with some aero benefit - maybe I swallowed some of the marketing (albeit maybe on some of the higher end eg zipps) that were saying aero benefit on some of the 30-35mm rims as good as the 50-60mm rims due to wider rim with better rim/tyre interface and toroidal profile over standard V shape, yada yada....
Anyway thats how I came full circle round to the options I listed which seemed to have the potential of giving a bit of aero benifit but not at the price of increase weight. I thought £350-400 wasnt overly much for a set of wheels, but was hoping to find a noticible upgrade in making that investment - which by the sounds of it I'm likely to be dissapointed, so even though its not much, £3-400 might be better kept in the pocket. An option would of course be to sell my Kysrium Elites and hope that what I get for them would put a large dent in the outlay for new wheels at that price.
Maybe I should have phrased the question in the first place differently - ie What clincher wheelset is recommended under £500 for all-round riding, but I'm sure that would spawn more queries, rider weight, ability, terrain etc. Ideally a set of lightish weight 1500-1600g with aero benefits (30-50mm) would tick the boxes - of the above the american Classics look good, but they seem very difficult to source from the main online dealers, and they are right at top of budget. So if the gains to be had are so unnoticable the cheapest RS81 c35s might be fine after all. think I'm answering my own question here while typing this out!!
0 -
buy a power meter instead.0
-
For less than a couple of hundred quid more than what you're looking at paying you can get a good set of hand-built carbon clinchers that will probably also weigh less than your current set.
http://dcrwheels.co.uk/products/dcr-components/dcr-carbon-rims/0 -
Anyway I'm riding a Cannondale SuperSix Evo (HM) with Mavic Kysrium Elite S wheels - they arent bad but just find them quite an effort to maintain higher speeds ie > 20-25mph on the flat/rolling terrain. So i figured I might benefit from areo type wheels.
Wrong.
You don't find THEM quite an effort.
You find it an effort to maintain YOU and THE BIKE AGAINST THE AIR RESISTANCE at 20-25 MPH.0 -
A power meter wont make you go faster either unless it has an in-built motor attached to the back wheelbuy a power meter instead.
0 -
My 2p - I don't really ride around as fast as you, but I would say I am no slouch and used to ride a bike with Zondas and 50mm carbon clinchers.
I would say that, at best, the carbon wheels give you an extra 0.5mph, maybe providing an extra 1 mph with a favourable wind angle over shallow box section wheels. I would say that the performance benefit is there, albeit pretty small and you do stop noticing it after a while.
That said, they do feel awesome, make a great sound and certainly put a smile on my face when riding them. I still own the wheels and am definitely keeping them for dry days. If you have money burning a hole in your pocket then it is definitely a box worth ticking, just to know - whatif. If as you say you ride your bike for fun, then carbon wheels certainly fit that criteria.
If you ride on reasonably flat/rolling terrain then carbon braking surface is fine and it takes all of 5 minutes to change brake pads to go back to alu wheels. Plus, in my view, the alu brake track looks abhorrent.0 -
Guys thanks for the advice so far - all very helpful and much appreciated.
TBH by the sounds of it I think I've been slightly drawn in by some of the marketing/hype with benefits from aero wheels (as example one of the GCN videos (Simon) testing how much difference aero wheels could make which basically concluded that he could sustain the same effort 2.5 times longer, ie 41kph for 1 hour as opposed to 25 mins) and many references of how smooth/fast they roll.
So I suppose I was/am, just looking that small 'marginal gain' but as I say I ride mostly for fun/fittness and am too long in the tooth to go down the route of shaving legs etc to maximise all the small gains - if I intended to race that might be a different story.
Bottom line is I prob do suffer from having money burning in the pocket and if I was to spend say 350-400 I was hoping to get the best value for that outlay and so for the factory options of zipp 30 and rs81 c35 which are heavily discounted then was just wondering if one was obviously superior to the other (for all-round riding). And then there is the admission that yes I would fancy a set of slightly deeper carbon wheels not just because they look good but if weight and spec are anything to go by then the likes of a carbonzone or Far Wheels with Sapim Xray spoke and decent hubs for the same price, then if they are decent enough quality (outside of just maybe having to true/readjuyst spoke tension) then they also look tempting.
I'm trying to rationalize it that if I sold may Ksyrium Elites for a couple hundred quid then the actual outlay for the 'upgrade' wont be too bad. However if this really isnt an upgrade over what I already have as some have suggested then yes I am probably best spending of something else....decisions decisions....0 -
The RS81 C35s are, IMO, nice wheels but slightly overpriced unless you can get a good discount. They are relatively light and do seem to run very smooth like their sibling the C24, not sure if it is the carbon wrap but who cares. The hubs are also very good (Ultegra) so can be easily serviced (cup/cone) and, if cared for, should easily outlast the rims (at which point the wheels go in the bin but let's not open the handbuilts' debate). The only downside is that they are slightly old hat now as they have a relatively narrow internal width (in fact, I keep waiting for Shimano to update the C24s so I can buy some) but matched with some 25mms they do work well, IMO.
Some folks have an issue with RS81s flexing but I don't, although at 65kg I wouldn't expect too much of an issue with flex.
You won't get a BIG bang for your buck with 35mm rims though, but they do look good and brake well. My own preference is the C24s as they are a little lighter and feel a little more nimble...but then the C24s are probably not worth the difference over Zondas...uh, oh! Back where you started!0 -
Remember the GCN Aero wheel test video was 808 with 82mm deep rim (discounting zipp fancy dimpling).
It is pretty significant difference between ~40mm and ~80mm in aero AND handling0 -
For 500 I would look out for some carbon cosmics on sale...think wiggle or crc were doing them at that price last month. Or buy 2nd hand which is what I did.
They transformed how the bike felt but I came from £60 OEM shimano R500s.
Either way, they'll make your bike look fast and make you feel good! 0 -
buy a power meter instead.
this. and learn how to use it.0 -
Would consider a power meter if I was planning to compete/race as I've often wanted to know what sort of figures I might be putting out just for curiosity sake, but since I'm not I couldnt justify the cost.
At least if I bought some new wheels I might get some marginal benefit performance wise and also the feel-good factor that they would bring as kammybear says 0 -
Cosmics look horrible though.
If you have 11speed brakes (whatever groupset) i'm sure you'll have plenty of stopping power for carbon brake tracks with the right pads. Alu brake tracks look so awful and weigh more0 -
If you are really going to buy a new wheels get something with a wider rim. Roads are not smooth a wider rim causes your tyre to spread out 23mm tyres become 25mm width and so on. The extra air volume will make a pace difference over rougher roads as well as making the riding more pleasant. Some on this forum claim they cannot notice the difference but then again some people (not on this forum I hope) like SMASH and think that a bit like mashed potato. Each to their own I suppose.
So that means of the wheels you list (unless you go with a custom set) the Zipp's win hands down.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Hi sorry for yet another wheel upgrade post...
Anyway I'm riding a Cannondale SuperSix Evo (HM) with Mavic Kysrium Elite S wheels - they arent bad but just find them quite an effort to maintain higher speeds ie > 20-25mph on the flat/rolling terrain. So i figured I might benefit from areo type wheels.
Initially was looking mid depth aeros around 50-60mm max but as I preferred the convinience of Alu rims all the deeper carbon/alu clinchers seem a bit heavy (losing the benefit of a light frame), so am now looking at shallower rims that might also give a bit of aero advantage. My longer rides would include a few decent steady climbs.
So with budget of around £500 and looking at some well discounted wheels the 3 I'm considering are:
Zipp 30 - £410 (£590rrp)
RS81 c35 £350 (£599 rrp)
American Classic Aero 420 3 £499 (£619 rrp)
Can anyone give recommendations of which may be best, esp if you have experience of riding them for comparison - or indeed include a.n. other wheelset which are worth looking at. The only other wheel I have ridden apart from Mavic Kysrium are Campagnolo Zonda, which I must say are a great wee wheel, as good as the mavic which I got for half the price - so Ideally I'm looking something that is definitely an upgrade.
As a curve ball although I say I prefer the convenience of Alu brake track however I have seen the likes of an all carbon clincher on ebay - carbonzone 50mm which is v cheap/light and seems to be built with decent components including Sapim XRay spokes and Novatec hubs which some much more expensive wheels use, so wondered in these Chinese imports as good quality or best avoided like some of the other chinese carbon rims.
Any advice much appreciated
How about some BORG31s?0 -
If you are really going to buy a new wheels get something with a wider rim. Roads are not smooth a wider rim causes your tyre to spread out 23mm tyres become 25mm width and so on. The extra air volume will make a pace difference over rougher roads as well as making the riding more pleasant. Some on this forum claim they cannot notice the difference but then again some people (not on this forum I hope) like SMASH and think that a bit like mashed potato. Each to their own I suppose.
So that means of the wheels you list (unless you go with a custom set) the Zipp's win hands down.
I am keen on the Zipp but they (and the c35's) are both using the narrower rims ~21mm according to the specs which has put me off slightly if the trend toward wider 23/25mm rims is becoming the standard - was wondering if this is why they are being heavily discounted to sell off the last of old stock. Would be a bit miffed if thought I was buying 'old tech' wheels.
Must admit I am getting tempted to take a chance on a set of Chinese imports from carbon zone / farsports or the like - 25mm 38 deep full carbon which are as light as my mavic ksyriums and sapim xray spokes with reasonable novatec/power way hub, 350quid Inc delivery, tempting...
As a side question, in the middle of the wheel dilemma I went ahead and ordered a set of schwalbe one with latex tubes ready incase i decide to buy the wheels. Thing is I ordered 23c tyres/tubes - so will 23c tyres be and OK match to 25mm rims or if I do decide to order the Chinese ones should I be getting 23mm rims as well. My uneducated guess was that from what i ve read the 23 tyre can spread and so could potentially be a good match to a wider 25mm rim and if it happened that I didn't bother with new wheels they will be fine on the ksyriums which already have 23c' on them. I have read that 25c on 25mm rim can have a pretty massive effective width which can cause rubbing / figment issues on some frames/brake calipers.0 -
I think you will find the zipp 30 has an internal width of 21mm and external 25mm. Edit iam wrong on the width of zipp wheels so wrong. I am mistaken.
Wheels are discouted heavily because that is the way the business model works. They never sell at rrp so yoj the buyer thinks they are gettjng a deal and you part witn you cash more easily. Really cheap chinese wheels are probably not as good in the long run. The zipp 30's will be fine. I am not going to comment on mine here that would not be fair.
You are in muddle so stop thinking. The best wheels in your original list are zipp 30 if you make up a new list they will still be near the top. There are other wide options but the good ones are not built in china on the cheap.
I use 23mm tyres on 25mm wide rims. They fit fine and your tyres will be 25mm on wide rims.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
I think you will find the zipp 30 has an internal width of 21mm and external 25mm.
I use 23mm tyres on 25mm wide rims. They fit fine and your tyres will be 25mm on wide rims.
Thanks for the reassurance on tyre comparability, one less thing to think about. Yes think I am over thinking it and in danger of going round in circles.
The zipps were indeed my initial preference which could be got for £410. The spec sheet on the Zipp website (and a few reviews of them) do however state brake track width (centre) of 20.4 and Max width (widest part of toroidal profile) of 21.5mm which is why I was assuming the wheels weren't particularly wide compared to the newer 23/5mm designs available.0
