Relationship between training volume and FTP?
GGBiker
Posts: 450
Anyone have any evidence based or anecdotal evidence on this? What could one expect typically (obviously everyone's response to training is different etc) by increasing volume from eg 4hrs per week to 8hrs per week or 12hrs per week?
Obviously we all train with the hope or expectation of improvement but what level of gain is possible?
I have an FTP of around 230w at the moment, I find it increases to around 250w once I do a few races and TTs early in season (ie intensity increases, but my average volume in the past probably never gets above 4-5hrs per week). Observationally a lot of people who put time in of 8-10hrs per week seem to see a step change in performance but others don't (although I think those who don't tend to only ever do moderate level endurance training eg 60-70 mile club runs, nothing at high intensity).
It's interesting that so many people train for sports yet so little quantitatively is known of the effects of this. Opinions?
Obviously we all train with the hope or expectation of improvement but what level of gain is possible?
I have an FTP of around 230w at the moment, I find it increases to around 250w once I do a few races and TTs early in season (ie intensity increases, but my average volume in the past probably never gets above 4-5hrs per week). Observationally a lot of people who put time in of 8-10hrs per week seem to see a step change in performance but others don't (although I think those who don't tend to only ever do moderate level endurance training eg 60-70 mile club runs, nothing at high intensity).
It's interesting that so many people train for sports yet so little quantitatively is known of the effects of this. Opinions?
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Read Joe Friel on this. Its not about volume, its about how much you can ramp up Training Stress Score, which is a combination of volume and intensity. Assuming you are keeping that the same, then its a matter of how long you can sustain that ramp rate for until you are so fatigued you cannot train effectively.
In his books, articles and blogs there are lots of studies and anecdotal stuff on the whole topic.0 -
It's interesting that so many people train for sports yet so little quantitatively is known of the effects of this. Opinions?
Yes - this is so true. We can build a Large Hadron Collider or land a washing machine on a comet hurtling through space yet there's very little understanding of fitness development in the broad population.
The thing is, whist we're all broadly the same general shape and geography on the outside, we're very different on the inside. There's no one training plan that will work for us all equally effectively because the changes we need to make are all different. I guess, in time, this will become better understood. An ex-colleague of mine is working on better blood measurement for the masses which will help us understand the effect of our training. Once this is understood and gene mapping becomes even cheaper, we'll get much better at targeting training on individuals.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
I find my FTP is 220 + CTL, give or take one or two watts. It seems pretty accurate for me. For others it may be, say, 200 + CTL or whatever but after a few years of looking at it it seems to work.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
I find my FTP is 220 + CTL, give or take one or two watts. It seems pretty accurate for me. For others it may be, say, 200 + CTL or whatever but after a few years of looking at it it seems to work.
Thats a really interesting correlation. How often do you test?0 -
I find my FTP is 220 + CTL, give or take one or two watts. It seems pretty accurate for me. For others it may be, say, 200 + CTL or whatever but after a few years of looking at it it seems to work.
Thats a really interesting correlation. How often do you test?
In the season I don't as I'm doing 25m TTs at least every 2-3 weeks.
In the off season once a month if I feel like it but the correlation is so strong I don't really need to. Although an FTP test is pretty good training!
Plus, I now have a coach who doesn't use FTP, it's based on lab test results around HR and Maximal Peak Power.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
I find my FTP is 220 + CTL, give or take one or two watts. It seems pretty accurate for me. For others it may be, say, 200 + CTL or whatever but after a few years of looking at it it seems to work.
Thats a really interesting correlation. How often do you test?
In the season I don't as I'm doing 25m TTs at least every 2-3 weeks.
In the off season once a month if I feel like it but the correlation is so strong I don't really need to. Although an FTP test is pretty good training!
Plus, I now have a coach who doesn't use FTP, it's based on lab test results around HR and Maximal Peak Power.
Thanks. One final question if I may. How much has your FTP varied during the period that you can see the correlation?0 -
I find my FTP is 220 + CTL, give or take one or two watts. It seems pretty accurate for me. For others it may be, say, 200 + CTL or whatever but after a few years of looking at it it seems to work.
thats quite interesting, I don't think my ftp changes that much, mid november my CTL was 48, it is now 78, i didn't test in november but can't believe i have gained 10% in that time. I do know some others who i race with though you have much bigger changes in ftp from season to winter.
I guess so little is known is because there is no set in stone rule, if you went from 4 hours a week to 8 by adding in 1 4 hour ride it would have less of an impact than going from 4 to 8 by doing 4 high intensity 2 hours rides0 -
I would have to be at about 300 + CTL for that to be right on my roadbike, bit less on TT, so certainly not a rule that works for all.
As said above, there is a lot on this, Training and racing with a powermeter book will explain the principles and how the TSS/ATL/CTL/TSB etc stuff works. Many many top athletes use this to great effect so I would say there is strong evidence to suggest its not total rubbish.
As shown by my own example above, some riders can do 5 hours a week and be stronger than those doing 10, response to training is obviously individual, along with how long you've been cycling or doing endurance sport. I've been riding properly for just over 4 years, I have done between 490-560 hours every one of those 4 years, the highest volume were the first two years as it happens and progress has been steady after the initial jump in fitness which clearly showed I responded well - see below -
I would estimate that at the beginning of training my 20 minute power would have been around 260W-280W (based on looking back at some efforts I made), 5 or so months later after training more, and adding intensity, riding with folk better than me and doing some races I borrowed a powermeter and recorded 355W for 20 mins, that was in April 2012, since then I've been training at a similar level in terms of hours etc, and I would imagine my 20 minute number now is likely 400-420W on good legs on my roadbike, so you can see that the initial jump was pretty massive, the gains following that are much slower to come round, my CTL has never been much above 100 and is currently around 85-90 FWIW.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
I would have to be at about 300 + CTL for that to be right on my roadbike, bit less on TT, so certainly not a rule that works for all.
As said above, there is a lot on this, Training and racing with a powermeter book will explain the principles and how the TSS/ATL/CTL/TSB etc stuff works. Many many top athletes use this to great effect so I would say there is strong evidence to suggest its not total rubbish.
As shown by my own example above, some riders can do 5 hours a week and be stronger than those doing 10, response to training is obviously individual, along with how long you've been cycling or doing endurance sport. I've been riding properly for just over 4 years, I have done between 490-560 hours every one of those 4 years, the highest volume were the first two years as it happens and progress has been steady after the initial jump in fitness which clearly showed I responded well - see below -
I would estimate that at the beginning of training my 20 minute power would have been around 260W-280W (based on looking back at some efforts I made), 5 or so months later after training more, and adding intensity, riding with folk better than me and doing some races I borrowed a powermeter and recorded 355W for 20 mins, that was in April 2012, since then I've been training at a similar level in terms of hours etc, and I would imagine my 20 minute number now is likely 400-420W on good legs on my roadbike, so you can see that the initial jump was pretty massive, the gains following that are much slower to come round, my CTL has never been much above 100 and is currently around 85-90 FWIW.
Thanks for your input Fabien!0 -
I would have to be at about 300 + CTL for that to be right on my roadbike, bit less on TT, so certainly not a rule that works for all.
As said above, there is a lot on this, Training and racing with a powermeter book will explain the principles and how the TSS/ATL/CTL/TSB etc stuff works. Many many top athletes use this to great effect so I would say there is strong evidence to suggest its not total rubbish.
As shown by my own example above, some riders can do 5 hours a week and be stronger than those doing 10, response to training is obviously individual, along with how long you've been cycling or doing endurance sport. I've been riding properly for just over 4 years, I have done between 490-560 hours every one of those 4 years, the highest volume were the first two years as it happens and progress has been steady after the initial jump in fitness which clearly showed I responded well - see below -
I would estimate that at the beginning of training my 20 minute power would have been around 260W-280W (based on looking back at some efforts I made), 5 or so months later after training more, and adding intensity, riding with folk better than me and doing some races I borrowed a powermeter and recorded 355W for 20 mins, that was in April 2012, since then I've been training at a similar level in terms of hours etc, and I would imagine my 20 minute number now is likely 400-420W on good legs on my roadbike, so you can see that the initial jump was pretty massive, the gains following that are much slower to come round, my CTL has never been much above 100 and is currently around 85-90 FWIW.
Thanks for your input Fabien!
Okgo is pretty damn quick BTW
Obviously my experience is very much n+1, I've never got up to 80-90CTL, things would start to get skewed there I think as I may have to adjust the baseline..Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Jeeez Im not sue how ive managed to do well in races with an ftp of 270 looking at those numbers lol.0
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I'm probably a bit heavier than you and I think Cancellara probably has an extra 100W to play with than that, but the point being you can see just how quickly some people see initial gains and then eeking out a few more watts here and there takes a fairly long time of constant training.
I suppose this is backed up by a lot of what you read about first year pro's finding the pace at proper pro races hard to believe, certainly that is what Geraint Thomas said in his book, and we all know now he is capable of being right up there, just prolonged load allowing you to train more and harder.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
I'm probably a bit heavier than you and I think Cancellara probably has an extra 100W to play with than that, but the point being you can see just how quickly some people see initial gains and then eeking out a few more watts here and there takes a fairly long time of constant training.
I suppose this is backed up by a lot of what you read about first year pro's finding the pace at proper pro races hard to believe, certainly that is what Geraint Thomas said in his book, and we all know now he is capable of being right up there, just prolonged load allowing you to train more and harder.
I agree with what you say, you often hear people say riding a grand tour steps you up a level due to the sheer number of hard Ks you are riding, also though adapting to riding in those bunches would improve your results even without your power PBs improving. a couple of good results would gain you a bit more respect and people wouldn't shut the door on you so readily. A mate rode Tour des Fjords this year and said he tried to sit on Cancellaras wheel moving up through the bunch and people would let Cancellara through then not budge when he tried to get past.
OkGo does have massive numbers, there are quite a few guys in UK conti teams that don't do numbers like that, How much do you weigh now?0 -
I'm probably a bit heavier than you and I think Cancellara probably has an extra 100W to play with than that, but the point being you can see just how quickly some people see initial gains and then eeking out a few more watts here and there takes a fairly long time of constant training.
I suppose this is backed up by a lot of what you read about first year pro's finding the pace at proper pro races hard to believe, certainly that is what Geraint Thomas said in his book, and we all know now he is capable of being right up there, just prolonged load allowing you to train more and harder.
I agree with what you say, you often hear people say riding a grand tour steps you up a level due to the sheer number of hard Ks you are riding, also though adapting to riding in those bunches would improve your results even without your power PBs improving. a couple of good results would gain you a bit more respect and people wouldn't shut the door on you so readily. A mate rode Tour des Fjords this year and said he tried to sit on Cancellaras wheel moving up through the bunch and people would let Cancellara through then not budge when he tried to get past.
OkGo does have massive numbers, there are quite a few guys in UK conti teams that don't do numbers like that, How much do you weigh now?
Of course its every little helps, and being the main man certainly helps I'm sure. What I mean is that I don't think there would have been much I could do in half the time (2 years vs 4) to get to the same place without not having a job (or a life outside cycling), its taken progressive load. So while my load hasn't really changed, I now get more from it.
About 80kg currently, just don't do the hours for much beyond crits/nat b races really. But I like TT's because it levels things out a bit.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
I'm probably a bit heavier than you and I think Cancellara probably has an extra 100W to play with than that, but the point being you can see just how quickly some people see initial gains and then eeking out a few more watts here and there takes a fairly long time of constant training.
I suppose this is backed up by a lot of what you read about first year pro's finding the pace at proper pro races hard to believe, certainly that is what Geraint Thomas said in his book, and we all know now he is capable of being right up there, just prolonged load allowing you to train more and harder.
I agree with what you say, you often hear people say riding a grand tour steps you up a level due to the sheer number of hard Ks you are riding, also though adapting to riding in those bunches would improve your results even without your power PBs improving. a couple of good results would gain you a bit more respect and people wouldn't shut the door on you so readily. A mate rode Tour des Fjords this year and said he tried to sit on Cancellaras wheel moving up through the bunch and people would let Cancellara through then not budge when he tried to get past.
OkGo does have massive numbers, there are quite a few guys in UK conti teams that don't do numbers like that, How much do you weigh now?
Of course its every little helps, and being the main man certainly helps I'm sure. What I mean is that I don't think there would have been much I could do in half the time (2 years vs 4) to get to the same place without not having a job (or a life outside cycling), its taken progressive load. So while my load hasn't really changed, I now get more from it.
About 80kg currently, just don't do the hours for much beyond crits/nat b races really. But I like TT's because it levels things out a bit.
Yeah for sure most people need the base you get from a couple of years of consistent training/racing. Yeah also now to ride prems you have to be in a 'elite' team now don't you? seems like a ploy by BC to make more money0 -
In 2013 I did my highest training load (11,000 miles) and it was also my worst season by far. More != better. I now do around 9500 miles a year and my fitness and performance has improved. Interestingly my base improved a lot last season but my ftp only improved a tiny amount. What I was able to do was hold big power longer and recover much faster. FTP is only a small part of the picture and really only useful to determine your training zones imo (unless you're doing 25 TT's).
People (including myself) tend to get transfixed on FTP like it's the be all and end all where it is only one piece of the puzzle. Last season I did about 365w on a 10 @ 68kg. I'm pretty sure I've not got much more in me but we will see next season 0 -
There is no relationship between CTL and FTP for me as have had pretty much the same FTP with a CTL of 85 and 125 before.
As you can easily get a higher CTL but just doing long easier rides on the bike with no real quality compared to shorter harder rides at Z3/Sweet Spot/Z4.0 -
I find it interesting that NapD has a linear relationship between his FTP and CTL, I certainly don't and neither do the few guys who's power data I'm privy to.
I probably range from 60 to 100 over the course of season, and my FTP only really moves up or down about 10 watts over the same period. I suppose it might be tied in some way to one's power profile, and which part of it is a particular strength or a weakness. My FTP for example is quite poor, but I have good 1-5 minute numbers. I also see much greater power fluctuations over the course of the season in the 1-5 minute MMPs. Perhaps people with more of a tester profile will see more of a linear relationship between FTP and CTL?
I'd be delighted if I could get an extra 20 watts at FTP purely by building up the CTL to 120, but I suspect that would not happen.0 -
In 2013 I did my highest training load (11,000 miles) and it was also my worst season by far. More != better. I now do around 9500 miles a year and my fitness and performance has improved. Interestingly my base improved a lot last season but my ftp only improved a tiny amount. What I was able to do was hold big power longer and recover much faster. FTP is only a small part of the picture and really only useful to determine your training zones imo (unless you're doing 25 TT's).
People (including myself) tend to get transfixed on FTP like it's the be all and end all where it is only one piece of the puzzle. Last season I did about 365w on a 10 @ 68kg. I'm pretty sure I've not got much more in me but we will see next season
I think a big part of being fit and race ready isn't having your highest ever ftp but your ability to do a hard 3-5 mins recover and go again, over here most people to TTs and RRs but there are guys you TT well but push them into the red in a RR and thats them done, likewise there is people who RR well but a nowhere in a TT, I am somewhere in the middle, although I do seem to better in faster races than slow 'grippy' races, think this is due to having low power numbers but being aero0 -
I am finding out what happens to FTP when volume goes up. For most of last year I did 10 to 12 hrs a week mixed intensity in Sepetmeber that went up to 16hrs and in november to 20hrs. now I am doing about 22hrs a week. FTP has gone up a bit but what has changed is my time to recover. I can more efforts on hills without suffer the effects of fatigue. The intensity of rides has gone down but I do feel better for it.
My best 5 minute 8 minute and 20 minute numbers have come in the last month and those have not been done "rested" as I ride twice a day for about 2.5 to hrs to 3hrs and more on sunday. So there has to be some correlation between volume, fittness and FTP but that relationship will vary from person to person.
I suppose I will find out if what I am doing works when the TT's and races start up. To be honest I am not sure how useful FTP is as a number as I don't use it. What is more important is the power I can sustain for 20 mins (a short club TT) and what I can manage for 2 minutes and 5 minutes which is useful in races.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
What do you use to set zones?0
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I am finding out what happens to FTP when volume goes up. For most of last year I did 10 to 12 hrs a week mixed intensity in Sepetmeber that went up to 16hrs and in november to 20hrs. now I am doing about 22hrs a week. FTP has gone up a bit but what has changed is my time to recover. I can more efforts on hills without suffer the effects of fatigue. The intensity of rides has gone down but I do feel better for it.
My best 5 minute 8 minute and 20 minute numbers have come in the last month and those have not been done "rested" as I ride twice a day for about 2.5 to hrs to 3hrs and more on sunday. So there has to be some correlation between volume, fittness and FTP but that relationship will vary from person to person.
I suppose I will find out if what I am doing works when the TT's and races start up. To be honest I am not sure how useful FTP is as a number as I don't use it. What is more important is the power I can sustain for 20 mins (a short club TT) and what I can manage for 2 minutes and 5 minutes which is useful in races.
All of which are related to your FTP really. Also, the larger your FTP the more fresh you will be when it comes to the point you need to use that shorter term power to make a break, win, whatever else it is.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0
