FTP question - am I underselling myself?

cruff

I've only just started training with a power meter (two months or so) and am working my way through Allen & Coggan, trying to develop a 'proper' training plan for winter (I'm too cheap to sign up to TrainingPeaks and buy one )

I've done three FTP tests, and gone from 221 to 240 to 260. Now, I can't believe that I've made that much of an improvement in two months - I'm also coming off a knee injury so thinking that the increase may be due to something like 'normal' power returning after an enforced layoff. When I'm doing the test (on turbo, so no worrying about inconsistency with wind/gradients, traffic lights etc) it feels like I'm giving it a lot, and the power graph is pretty consistent (i.e. no massive ramp up for the last few minutes when I realise I haven't given it full gas), but when I'm out on reasonably fast rides (commutes and the like) I regularly put out just under my FTP (when the power is normalised) for anything up to three hours. For instance - today I rode in and did 257 over 30 miles in just over an hour and a half

I have only just got myself a fan for indoor use - I know this will probably make a difference, but probably only 10 watts or so, making my FTP around 270 - but the Intensity Factor on my rides, based on the FTP I've entered, regularly hits 1.1.

Am I just not going hard enough on my FTP tests? Should I be on the verge of passing out, fall off the bike and puke then lie there in the foetal position for ten minutes when they're finished?

napoleond

The ideal FTP test is one where the power is perfectly consistent but as you hit the end you feel you can't possibly push another pedal stroke. They are HORRIBLE.

stretchy

I think that you are underselling yourself. The improvements in your test results could be because you are learning to take the test better, which is a good thing! I personally find riding indoors does feel harder than riding out so your FTP could be lowered by the fact you are indoors doing the test. To get a truly accurate FTP you need to have an idea of what it actually is so you can pace yourself through the test and as NapD says the power is perfectly consistent and you feel you can't push another pedal stroke.

buckmulligan

I agree with the previous two posters, the FTP test is supposed to be a test to exhaustion so if you're not falling off your bike at the end of it and/or legs cramping up then you're not pushing hard enough. For sure, if you've had a bit of a lay-off you'll increase fitness/strength quickly, but a lot of your increase could be put down to learning to do the test better; in my opinion, you only know your limits once you've failed a test or two from going out too hard.

Having said that, the disconnect between indoors and outdoors power is also a notorious phenomenon but one that can be addressed and narrowed. Cooling is a massive issue with indoors riding, especially for high intensity efforts such as FTP testing. Get the biggest fan you can find and put it full blast right in your face, wearing sunglasses if necessary. This will go a long way to reducing your RPE and increasing the amount of power you can put out in an indoors FTP test.

Secondly, do you have auto-pause enabled on your bike computer when riding outdoors? If so, then your outdoor riding numbers will be inflated because every time you pause then you're getting a rest period that is unaccounted for in the Normalized Power Data. Imagine if you did your 20 minute FTP test as 4x 5 min efforts with 5 minute rests in between, you'd be able to hit much higher numbers right?

jrich

Like others have said, the idea of the FTP is that you hold the maximum power you can constantly for 20 minutes. You should be giving it everything. If you can ask 'am I going hard enough' then the answer is obviously NO. If you're head isn't filling with reasons why it would be a good idea to stop riding immediately, then you're no going hard enough - it should be a real mental struggle as well as a physical struggle. you have to overcome your body's natural instinct of self preservation. This is why pacing is important, if you aim too high at the outset then you will have to reduce power and the test will be void. Similarly, if you can increase power towards the end then I would say you have not gone hard enough at the beginning.

Also, you should be doing a 5 minute maximum effort before your 20 minute effort. This is to make the end result more reliable and give you a more accurate FTP figure.

Bear in mind the turbo power and road power can be vastly different. Most people seem to put out more power on the road but some find they can put out more on the turbo. If you're serious you need to test for both and have a separate FTP for each.

It's not unreasonable to see a large increase in power if you're going from an untrained state or if you are just beginning regular training. Obviously the gains will decrease over time - you have harvested the low hanging fruit. You can also expect to be able to hold 90% of your FTP for a good long time. If you can hold 95% of your 20min max for 1 hour then it follows that you can hold 95% of your 1 hour max for 2+hours.

I would suggest that if you've managed 260W and you felt good then try 280 next time and stick to it from beginning to end. If its too easy then next time add more watts, you will reach the point where you can't hold that power for the duration and then you've know you've gone too hard.

cruff

Thanks to all for the advice. Will definitely look at trying to hold 280 when I test after my next training block. I think the thing I find the most difficult on the trainer is not going off like a rat up a drainpipe. Actually, I'm like that on the road too - comes from having the attention span of a goldfish, I think. Maybe I'm too conscious of that and am deliberately starting off too low in an attempt to stop 'crashing' in the middle.

Here's my test procedure:

After my warm-up and a couple of leg openers, I'm doing a 5 minute over-threshold effort, with a five minute recovery before starting the test to try and get an accurate figure:

10 min warm-up - 50-55% of previous FTP
2 min effort - 90%
3 min coast - 60-65%
2 min effort - 90%
3 min coast - 60-65
5 min over-threshold - 110%
5 min coast - 50-5%
20 min test
10 min warm-down - 50-55%

Does that look like a decent test protocol to follow?

sungod

ftp is the average power over an hour, not twenty minutes

you can estimate from 20 minute effort, then multiply by a correction factor, but the result will still be an estimate, with maybe ± 4% margin

though for someone who lacks endurance the estimate might be much further out

given that it's just an estimate, it doesn't really matter which protocol you follow, as long as you stick to the same one, then you'll have a consistent measurement that you can use to track progress

as mentioned above, the test is an all-out effort, you need to be rested/recovered in the days before you do the test if the results are to be useful

cruff

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19763877#p19763877]sungod[/url] wrote:

ftp is the average power over an hour, not twenty minutes

you can estimate from 20 minute effort, then multiply by a correction factor, but the result will still be an estimate, with maybe ± 4% margin

though for someone who lacks endurance the estimate might be much further out

given that it's just an estimate, it doesn't really matter which protocol you follow, as long as you stick to the same one, then you'll have a consistent measurement that you can use to track progress

as mentioned above, the test is an all-out effort, you need to be rested/recovered in the days before you do the test if the results are to be useful

Sorry - yes, I should have mentioned I'm getting the result of a 20 minute test and taking 10% off it to arrive at my FTP number, as per Coggan/Allen. So the actual number is AFTER that calculation

Also, I'm aiming at doing the test no more than once per month, after either a rest day or a recovery ride. I haven't quite worked out a 'proper' plan that includes an 'ease-off' week yet, but will make sure I test at the end of one of these when i finally get the chance to sit down and do a plan

dzp1

Don't forget that not all powermeters are accurate. Sometimes they go wrong and drift off, so make sure its calibrated properly and is returning reliable zero offset figures before you rely on the data to make training decisions etc.

Alex99

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19763733#p19763733]zebulebu[/url] wrote:

I've only just started training with a power meter (two months or so) and am working my way through Allen & Coggan, trying to develop a 'proper' training plan for winter (I'm too cheap to sign up to TrainingPeaks and buy one )

I've done three FTP tests, and gone from 221 to 240 to 260. Now, I can't believe that I've made that much of an improvement in two months - I'm also coming off a knee injury so thinking that the increase may be due to something like 'normal' power returning after an enforced layoff. When I'm doing the test (on turbo, so no worrying about inconsistency with wind/gradients, traffic lights etc) it feels like I'm giving it a lot, and the power graph is pretty consistent (i.e. no massive ramp up for the last few minutes when I realise I haven't given it full gas), but when I'm out on reasonably fast rides (commutes and the like) I regularly put out just under my FTP (when the power is normalised) for anything up to three hours. For instance - today I rode in and did 257 over 30 miles in just over an hour and a half

I have only just got myself a fan for indoor use - I know this will probably make a difference, but probably only 10 watts or so, making my FTP around 270 - but the Intensity Factor on my rides, based on the FTP I've entered, regularly hits 1.1.

Am I just not going hard enough on my FTP tests? Should I be on the verge of passing out, fall off the bike and puke then lie there in the foetal position for ten minutes when they're finished?

If you were fairly bike fit before your injury, then that might be genuine improvement your're seening. I remember from Michael Hutchinson's book that some training adaptations are fast. But you'll be getting better at the test too.

It's normal to hit lower numbers on an indoor trainer. Friels training with power book mentions this for when doing FTP test on a turbo (add 5% on I think, but worth checking).

Yes, you should be basically dying at the end of the test, but just holding on.

cruff

So - FTP test yesterday was 294, and I felt like I was going to die at the end of it. There was a tiny bit more in there as well - last 3 minutes I was up around 4%. This was the first time I really felt like I'd given it everything, so I may be getting my pacing about right. Fan definitely makes a difference - heart rate was down about 10bpm on average at the beginning of the test (after warmup and short intense effort prior to test proper)

Looks like I just wasn't hurting myself enough originally

northcliff66

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19773896#p19773896]zebulebu[/url] wrote:

So - FTP test yesterday was 294, and I felt like I was going to die at the end of it. There was a tiny bit more in there as well - last 3 minutes I was up around 4%. This was the first time I really felt like I'd given it everything, so I may be getting my pacing about right. Fan definitely makes a difference - heart rate was down about 10bpm on average at the beginning of the test (after warmup and short intense effort prior to test proper)

Looks like I just wasn't hurting myself enough originally

If the picture in your avatar is your legs then I would expect an FTP of at least 500! :shock: :shock:

cruff

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19773908#p19773908]northcliff66[/url] wrote:

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19773896#p19773896]zebulebu[/url] wrote:

So - FTP test yesterday was 294, and I felt like I was going to die at the end of it. There was a tiny bit more in there as well - last 3 minutes I was up around 4%. This was the first time I really felt like I'd given it everything, so I may be getting my pacing about right. Fan definitely makes a difference - heart rate was down about 10bpm on average at the beginning of the test (after warmup and short intense effort prior to test proper)

Looks like I just wasn't hurting myself enough originally

If the picture in your avatar is your legs then I would expect an FTP of at least 500! :shock: :shock:

Haha

If only...

I'ts all in the camera angle

cruff

Resurrecting this from last year, last FTP test was 311, and nailed it to within about 2% the entire way. When I tried to 'empty' myself in the last minute I couldn't get any more power out - maybe an extra 10-15 watts for the last fifteen seconds - so clearly my pacing has improved.

On the off-chance that anyone else is reading this and wondering, it's definitely true that you get better at pacing the more you test. Looking back at my tests over the year, I've seen a steady flattening in my graph over the duration of the test. Also seen the improvements tail off so that I'm now just making small gains, rather than the larger 'jumps' I was seeing from test to test at the end of 2015 and beginning of last year. Can't state enough how much difference a fan makes too. I'm still a sweaty mess at the end of a test, but my heart rate doesn't climb to that of a tachycardic foetus within two minutes now - it's pretty much at threshold the entire way

jrich

Nice one mate!

Now you can put those watts to good use in the coming season :-)

cruff

Pah. I need someone to teach me how to ride a bike first! Can't descend, can't corner... If only all races were four mile round circuits with 'corners' at 5 degree angles...

jrich

You need to take up time trialling then. Often the only corner you have to get round is a big roundabout - easy peasy! (actually that depends how many exits there are off the roundabout, there's always at least on person that goes off course).

daddy0

zebulebu wrote:

On the off-chance that anyone else is reading this

I'm reading, cheers for writing :-)

ryan_w-2

I've gone from 187w to 278w in the past 5 weeks... All hour FTP tests.

Hoping that once I can sort my pacing out, I'll make it over 300w.

Strength is there with my 26.5" quads, but I keep forgetting to pull up with my pedal strokes! When I do, it's like I've found another gear!

cruff

jrich wrote:

You need to take up time trialling then. Often the only corner you have to get round is a big roundabout - easy peasy! (actually that depends how many exits there are off the roundabout, there's always at least on person that goes off course).

I started TTs last year - got a sub 23 10 on a slow course, but have no clue about position or anything, so am getting fitted in a couple of weeks. If I'm honest, I prefer racing - I dabbles a bit last year but am going to try and race a full season this year and just improve my positioning and cornering

AK_jnr

Ryan_W wrote:

I've gone from 187w to 278w in the past 5 weeks... All hour FTP tests.

Hoping that once I can sort my pacing out, I'll make it over 300w.

Strength is there with my 26.5" quads, but I keep forgetting to pull up with my pedal strokes! When I do, it's like I've found another gear!

Dont.

Pull up and you will lose power where it matters - on the down stroke. The idea is to unload your leg to move through the upstroke (recovery phase) as quick as possible to get back on the power.

ryan_w-2

AK_jnr wrote:

Ryan_W wrote:

I've gone from 187w to 278w in the past 5 weeks... All hour FTP tests.

Hoping that once I can sort my pacing out, I'll make it over 300w.

Strength is there with my 26.5" quads, but I keep forgetting to pull up with my pedal strokes! When I do, it's like I've found another gear!

Dont.

Pull up and you will lose power where it matters - on the down stroke. The idea is to unload your leg to move through the upstroke (recovery phase) as quick as possible to get back on the power.

Surely it's about timing? If you can push and pull at the same time, you will be more efficient, more powerful, faster?

AK_jnr

Google it. Much cleverer people than me have written about it and will be able to explain it better.

.

sven_jto

Ryan_W wrote:

AK_jnr wrote:

Ryan_W wrote:

I've gone from 187w to 278w in the past 5 weeks... All hour FTP tests.

Hoping that once I can sort my pacing out, I'll make it over 300w.

Strength is there with my 26.5" quads, but I keep forgetting to pull up with my pedal strokes! When I do, it's like I've found another gear!

Dont.

Pull up and you will lose power where it matters - on the down stroke. The idea is to unload your leg to move through the upstroke (recovery phase) as quick as possible to get back on the power.

Surely it's about timing? If you can push and pull at the same time, you will be more efficient, more powerful, faster?

Nah the idea is you use more muscle groups which don't benefit so much to power contribution. Those muscle groups use extra oxygen and fuel that could have been used for the power phase which gives off more benefit to power production.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Ryan_W wrote:

AK_jnr wrote:

Ryan_W wrote:

I've gone from 187w to 278w in the past 5 weeks... All hour FTP tests.

Hoping that once I can sort my pacing out, I'll make it over 300w.

Strength is there with my 26.5" quads, but I keep forgetting to pull up with my pedal strokes! When I do, it's like I've found another gear!

Dont.

Pull up and you will lose power where it matters - on the down stroke. The idea is to unload your leg to move through the upstroke (recovery phase) as quick as possible to get back on the power.

Surely it's about timing? If you can push and pull at the same time, you will be more efficient, more powerful, faster?

No, it's about using the muscles most suited to the task of pedalling. Pulling up is significantly less efficient than pushing down. Pedalling is a leg extension / leg flexion task.
Enjoy:
http://www.ucsfcme.com/cycling/bikefit/ ... ycling.pdf