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The Homeless

mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,769
edited January 2016 in The cake stop
On the radio news yesterday evening they broadcast a brief speech made by David CaMoron regarding Syrian Refugees. He said that the first tranche had arrived in Northern Ireland and another into Stansted Airport.
Then stated "ALL WOULD BE HOUSED, given medical treatment and educated etc, etc. I fully understand that many are children and that they have fled a conflict zone and need help.
However over the last few weeks I have listened to and seen frequent advertisements from the likes of Shelter about helping the homeless over the festive period. Many of the homeless are ex-service personnel (many with mental illness), youngsters who have fled abusive households, vulnerable adults, mentally ill, or people who have fallen on hard times. We have all seen them and most probably ignored them. Can anyone square the circle of how a government can shelter and aid those from without, yet not do anything for those from within. Perhaps they do. If so can anyone explain?
Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 60,883 Lives Here
    Shouldn't conflate the two.

    You can aim to look after both.
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,769
    Shouldn't conflate the two.

    You can aim to look after both.

    But they/we clearly don't. It is left to charities and volunteers.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    edited December 2015
    Before the syrian or indeed any recent refugee crisis, the UK has failed to house and look after its most vulnerable. Thatchers "who cares in the community" seems to have snowed balled the situation.

    One of the things that shocked me, working for the first time in London, 1980's - was seeing all the volunteer soup kitchens on the embankment at 0600, was even more shocked to see child beggars nr Aldgate and the mentally ill residents of Hope house and yet these places were just few 100m's from the city.
    Its all changed now, but the situation, as you say is still there, just moved.

    Regardless of whether we take in syrian refugees or not, we as a country do not look after ex servicemen/women (look at the sucide rates) or other vulnerable groups, so 20,000 syrians allowed in over 5 years will make little or no difference to them.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 60,883 Lives Here
    It's a stain on the whole of society that we collectively leave looking after the homeless to charities.
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 9,908
    "And, you know, there is no such thing as society." M Thatcher, 1987, Women's Own magazine interview.
  • It's a stain on the whole of society that we collectively leave looking after the homeless to charities.
    Couldn't agree more. Most of us on here are only about two mortgage payments/rent payments away from being homeless. Frankie Boyle is very good on this in his biog.
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,769
    It's a stain on the whole of society that we collectively leave looking after the homeless to charities.
    Couldn't agree more. Most of us on here are only about two mortgage payments/rent payments away from being homeless. Frankie Boyle is very good on this in his biog.

    Exactly. This is how I would categorise 'Working Class' :- anyone that would being in serious financial strife or at risk of being made homeless, should they lose their income. In other words most of us.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 60,883 Lives Here
    I'd say that proper care of veterans is a key way to help with that and the lowest hanging fruit for govt to sort out.

    If the govt wants to flex its muscles and use its own soldiers to wage war, they must accept that in return for risking their lives as well a physical and mental health for the rest of society, they must provide adequate care long after their service is finished.

    Forget arguments about how deep a politician bows. Where's the money?

    If it's too expensive to do, then you factor that into your policy of engaging in avoidable warfare.
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,769
    I have just read an article about some Syrian families that have recently been housed on the Isle of Bute. They are already complaining that they cannot get the foods and drinks they are used to at home! And to top that off they are struggling with the weather. FFS. Why can't they be grateful they have somewhere safe to live and may have to adapt their lifestyle. I am sure a 'Jock' would struggle to find haggis and a fine malt in Homs.

    We have ex servicemen who are homeless and suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome who would embrace the opportunity to have a roof over their head.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • Because one lets Cameron justify having his war, the other leaves another section of society quite easy to demonise?
    If I know you, and I like you, you can borrow my bike box for £30 a week. PM for details.
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,686
    I have just read an article about some Syrian families that have recently been housed on the Isle of Bute. They are already complaining that they cannot get the foods and drinks they are used to at home! And to top that off they are struggling with the weather. FFS. Why can't they be grateful they have somewhere safe to live and may have to adapt their lifestyle. I am sure a 'Jock' would struggle to find haggis and a fine malt in Homs.

    Were they actually complaining, or were they just giving answers to leading questions?
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,841
    I have just read an article about some Syrian families that have recently been housed on the Isle of Bute. They are already complaining that they cannot get the foods and drinks they are used to at home! And to top that off they are struggling with the weather. FFS. Why can't they be grateful they have somewhere safe to live and may have to adapt their lifestyle...

    Possibly because the vast majority of migrants are not here for refuge but simply here to grab a better life at the expense of the British taxpayer. The immigration issue has an unfortunate habit of popping up time and time again even though the bleeding heart lefties want to paint those who dare to question it as racists. Calling someone a racist makes it easier to associate the criticism with rank stupidity and/or simple bigotry, which is more convenient than having to face the truth that all this nonsense is helping the Brexit cause more than funding UKIP could ever do.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Possibly because the vast majority of migrants are not here for refuge but simply here to grab a better life at the expense of the British taxpayer. The immigration issue has an unfortunate habit of popping up time and time again even though the bleeding heart lefties want to paint those who dare to question it as racists. Calling someone a racist makes it easier to associate the criticism with rank stupidity and/or simple bigotry, which is more convenient than having to face the truth that all this nonsense is helping the Brexit cause more than funding UKIP could ever do.

    Do you know this for a fact?

    Migrants as in these 20,000 Syrians from camps around the region, the tories are letting in, over the next 5 years or the 100s of 1000's that come in from the EU ? attracted here by a non contributory benefits system that gives the feckless exactly the same as the thrifty, a system which was never labours intent or policy but one that has mainly, due to changes by the right, become the norm.

    you and others carry on about the lefties doing this or that but the reality is, that its the right wing that are in power and we have a right of centre bias media but some how its all the lefties fault ..... eh? i even read a few days ago that it was the left's fault that Sgt Blackman was in jail, how does anyone work that out?

    We ve got 200,000 vacant properties in the UK, if we cant show some charity for some people who ve lost everything, then it is no wonder we treat ex services people so badly... because there will always be better causes to spend money on.

    BUT what should happen is that any refugee coming here should return back to Syria, once the country becomes peaceful again, there should nt be a permanant right to stay in the the UK or Europe.
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,686

    Possibly because the vast majority of migrants are not here for refuge but simply here to grab a better life at the expense of the British taxpayer. (...) Calling someone a racist makes it easier to associate the criticism with rank stupidity and/or simple bigotry

    God, imagine calling somebody a racist, just because they're making a sweeping generalisation about immigrants.
  • I wouldn't call you a racist Bobbinogs. I'd call you a *, but never a racist.
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,841
    Cheers thegreatdivide. Thanks for the clarification.
  • Stop the personal insults and swearing please.
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  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,686
    This place would be pretty quiet without personal insults and swearing.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 49,287
    It's a stain on the whole of society that we collectively leave looking after the homeless to charities.
    We don't just leave it to charities. The state has legal obligations to deal with it:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Kingdom
    And according to the stats in that link, the numbers are considerably lower than 12 years ago.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    It's a stain on the whole of society that we collectively leave looking after the homeless to charities.
    We don't just leave it to charities. The state has legal obligations to deal with it:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Kingdom
    And according to the stats in that link, the numbers are considerably lower than 12 years ago.

    only if you fall into a vulnerable category, otherwise there is no obligation, nor if you are intentionally homeless, not so clear cut with mental illness eg ptsd ex services.
    also many families are pushed from b&b to b&b as there is no real supply of social housing, who took that away?
    How much does this cost society in indirect costs ie health care poor educationl and future job chances?
    Your link is for number of homeless households, welcome though it is, not individuals.

    "Last year 2013/14, 112,070 people declared themselves homeless in England – a 26% increase in four years. At the same time, the number of people sleeping rough in London grew by 75% to a staggering 6,437"

    So stil a huge need for the charitable sector.
  • Sometimes there is a need to declare yourself homeless. A relative of mine with two teenage boys had to in order to find accommodation. A local authorities first question normally is "Have you got a relative or friend you can stay with?" To get a place he had to say no, and become a statistic (temporarily).
    There are plenty of people who answer "yes" to the above question and find themselves sleeping on a mates sofa for months on end.
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 49,287
    It's a stain on the whole of society that we collectively leave looking after the homeless to charities.
    We don't just leave it to charities. The state has legal obligations to deal with it:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Kingdom
    And according to the stats in that link, the numbers are considerably lower than 12 years ago.

    only if you fall into a vulnerable category, otherwise there is no obligation, nor if you are intentionally homeless, not so clear cut with mental illness eg ptsd ex services.
    also many families are pushed from b&b to b&b as there is no real supply of social housing, who took that away?
    How much does this cost society in indirect costs ie health care poor educationl and future job chances?
    Your link is for number of homeless households, welcome though it is, not individuals.

    "Last year 2013/14, 112,070 people declared themselves homeless in England – a 26% increase in four years. At the same time, the number of people sleeping rough in London grew by 75% to a staggering 6,437"

    So stil a huge need for the charitable sector.
    Ricks statement was factually incorrect and I simply pointed that out.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    It was more accurate than yours :wink: but you are correct, depending on how things are worded or stats shown, one can make any case fit your views.... fortunately not something either of us would ever do.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 60,883 Lives Here
    It's a stain on the whole of society that we collectively leave looking after the homeless to charities.
    We don't just leave it to charities. The state has legal obligations to deal with it:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Kingdom
    And according to the stats in that link, the numbers are considerably lower than 12 years ago.

    only if you fall into a vulnerable category, otherwise there is no obligation, nor if you are intentionally homeless, not so clear cut with mental illness eg ptsd ex services.
    also many families are pushed from b&b to b&b as there is no real supply of social housing, who took that away?
    How much does this cost society in indirect costs ie health care poor educationl and future job chances?
    Your link is for number of homeless households, welcome though it is, not individuals.

    "Last year 2013/14, 112,070 people declared themselves homeless in England – a 26% increase in four years. At the same time, the number of people sleeping rough in London grew by 75% to a staggering 6,437"

    So stil a huge need for the charitable sector.
    Ricks statement was factually incorrect and I simply pointed that out.

    I had a family member who was homeless.

    He did not receive any help from the state, and literally lived off charity until he died.
  • floreriderflorerider Posts: 1,112
    "And, you know, there is no such thing as society." M Thatcher, 1987, Women's Own magazine interview.

    and to give the whole:

    "I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

    No-one ever quotes the bit that says " It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour".
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    "And, you know, there is no such thing as society." M Thatcher, 1987, Women's Own magazine interview.

    and to give the whole:

    "I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

    No-one ever quotes the bit that says " It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour".

    i think people also stopped at the look to themsleves bit too.

    as i pay taxes and anyone else who does or has, plus ex service personnel, we ve all met our obligations surely? so why should nt we look to the state? if not, slash my taxes and allow in the private police forces, med cover and no emergency care unless you ve a credit card.

    in countries that take a less liberal and caring social attitude, murder and crime rates soar and society becomes a dangerous place, so i ve lived in places where walking over a dead body is not abnormal.
  • 964cup964cup Posts: 1,362
    i think people also stopped at the look to themsleves bit too.

    as i pay taxes and anyone else who does or has, plus ex service personnel, we ve all met our obligations surely?

    Well, then one of the things we - as individuals - have to do is vote for a government that will spend that tax revenue on dealing with homelessness, and raise taxes if needed. If that's what we want. The point Thatcher was making is that these are *our* choices, not the choice of some notional external entity labelled "society".

    I think this government has the will to do something about the problem, but lacks the means, especially if it's also going to balance the books and meet our expectations for defence, the NHS, education and so on. Charity is essentially a way of raising additional taxation voluntarily.
  • If our government can find the funds and resources to house refugees 20,00 in five years they should be able to find the same resources to home 70,000 British homeless. 90,000 homes should not be that hard to find/build.

    There should be homes for all in a nation as rich as ours.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • i see first time buyer purchasing of homes is down to 38% of homes bought and the amount of time it takes to raise a deposit needed for a mortgage, has gone from 4 years in the 90s to 23 years now.

    So unless your rich/parents very rich, then renting is your only option, so rent rises need to be addressed and long term rent agreements for tenants need boosting or we are going to see more evictions and more homeless.
  • i see first time buyer purchasing of homes is down to 38% of homes bought and the amount of time it takes to raise a deposit needed for a mortgage, has gone from 4 years in the 90s to 23 years now.

    So unless your rich/parents very rich, then renting is your only option, so rent rises need to be addressed and long term rent agreements for tenants need boosting or we are going to see more evictions and more homeless.
    Unless of course there is a programme of widespread social housing put in place.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
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