Dura ace or ultegra Di2 what's the real differences
Comments
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I'm a Di2 convert, but I'm quite happy with mechanical. No problem with wireless but I'm not so sure about needing 4 or more batteries. It seems that you save a one off hassle at installation and in return you get a slightly neater setup but an ongoing maintenance issue. It will be interesting to hear how that works out in practice.
Paul0 -
Ongoing maintenance issue?? charging/ changing batteries? yes thats a fair skillI'm a Di2 convert, but I'm quite happy with mechanical. No problem with wireless but I'm not so sure about needing 4 or more batteries. It seems that you save a one off hassle at installation and in return you get a slightly neater setup but an ongoing maintenance issue. It will be interesting to hear how that works out in practice.
Paul
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What I find entertaining are Di2 converts saying that they are not convinced about wireless shifting technology saying that they don't trust it, step too far, who needs wireless anyway etc.
it is a bit like the mechanical diehards criticising Di2. makes me smile anyway.
The forthcoming wireless shifting has to be the way to go - it will open up options to many folks who have non electronic configured frames and don't want external wiring looms on display (but do want to switch to electronic). Can't imagine it will be long before all three companies are offering this.
Peter0 -
I bought Ultegra because I was paying. Very little difference in my opinion.0
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The auto trimming of the front mech by the computer is worth the price of admission alone.
Always a pet hate of mine, trimming the front mech.0 -
What I find entertaining are Di2 converts saying that they are not convinced about wireless shifting technology saying that they don't trust it, step too far, who needs wireless anyway etc.
it is a bit like the mechanical diehards criticising Di2. makes me smile anyway.
Maybe because I work in the design and testing of complex consumer electronics (and I'm a professional mechanical engineer) - there's a risk that I know what I'm talking about (crazy talk on an Internet forum, I know).
As for maintenance: ever had a situation where your Garmin can't find your power meter, cadence or HRM?i know I have plenty of times. That's just slightly irritating. When your shifters can't find your derailleurs that will be slightly more frustrating.
Retrofitting to old (non-Di2) frames I think will be a niche market. There are potential challenges related to metal frames too. Besides that, I have Di2 fitted to a non-Di2 frame - only my bike fitter noticed and commented about how neat it was - far less obtrusive than the cables they replace.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Nah. self justification of ones purchasing decision i am afraid, just like all of the cable diehards
Time will tell how good the wireless systems are. then we can judge.0 -
Meanredspider which di2 system do you use on your bikes? DA or ultegra?
As I say I'm happy to spend the extra money of it really does function better and has a difference if all I'm paying for is really 251grams of weight reduction feel i would be better off just losing a few lbs my self instead. Haha.2015 Specialized S-Works Tarmac - Ultegra Di2 (7.0kg)
Kinesis Aithein - Ultegra mechanical (7.3kg)
Kinesis Maxlight Xc130 - xt/ xtr (11.3kg)
spin to win!0 -
Meanredspider which di2 system do you use on your bikes? DA or ultegra?
As I say I'm happy to spend the extra money of it really does function better and has a difference if all I'm paying for is really 251grams of weight reduction feel i would be better off just losing a few lbs my self instead. Haha.
I use Ultegra - I'm perfectly happy with it. It's fair to say I've not used DA but, equally, I've never thought for a second I need it (well, maybe on the 6th ascent of Alpe D'Huez in a day, I'd have appreciated losing a few grammes ) Seriously, though, unless you're doing a no-expense-spared build, Ultegra will be great. ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Changing one or more of four small batteries as opposed to charging one larger? I'd say that's a potential issue. How do you routinely know the battery state of each device? But if they are using disposable batteries then carrying a spare is easy.dwanes wrote:Ongoing maintenance issue?? charging/ changing batteries? yes thats a fair skill
It will be interesting to see how it works out. I'm sold on Di2, but I really don't mind riding mechanical. It's frosting.
Paul0 -
Meanredspider which di2 system do you use on your bikes? DA or ultegra?
As I say I'm happy to spend the extra money of it really does function better and has a difference if all I'm paying for is really 251grams of weight reduction feel i would be better off just losing a few lbs my self instead. Haha.
I've ridden DA9000, DA 9070, Ultegra 6800 (just today in fact) and 6870. There's genuinely nothing to choose between them than aesthetics and weight. The performance is identical. Despite knowing that I still run DA on my nice bike, I reckon life is short and it does look a lot nicer. My nice bike is as far as it goes though, I've got Rival 22 on my winter bike and 105 on my old Spesh that sits on the turbo.
If you go DA then you are essentially paying a chunk of cash for some marginal weight benefits (most of which is in the chainset I seem to recall) and a nicer looking group set. Whether that's worth it is a purely personal call, there's not a logical reason to go DA.0 -
I've just been comparing the brifters and I'm surprised how big the mechanical hydraulic (685?) brifters are. I'm going to be swapping them for 785 hydraulic Di2 brifters and the size difference is quite stark. The 785 brifters are pretty much identical in size to my 10-speed Di2 rim brake brifters. It's clearly quite a challenge to package mechanical shifting with hydraulic brakes.
It'll be interesting to see how large SRAM's wireless brifters are. On top of the simple switches that Di2 needs, wireless will require a battery (a coin cell I'm guessing), circuit boards and an antenna. Where they will put the interface (assuming there's something to tell you battery status, mode etc) I don't know. I'd imagine the power requirements for the derailleurs will mean something more chunky than a single coin cell. Somewhere you also need to configure the system - phone app? Garmin? - to pair components so that they're all on the same "network". This is all the stuff that seems unnecessary simply to do away with some pretty discrete wires (that could be even more discrete if bars and stems were designed for Di2 or, better still, integrated Di2 with Garmin-style features and lights within the stem and bars)ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Haven't you seen the early reviews? Most of this info is already out there.
For example:
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/components/groupsets/groupset-road/product/review-sram-red-etap-49810/
https://youtu.be/mCmxZOHFnSM
https://youtu.be/68cV00oRK1M
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/09/wireless-game-changer-sram-introduces-etap/0 -
Haven't you seen the early reviews? Most of this info is already out there.
Ah yes - I have just now and it's pretty much as I've written it. The bit that has surprised me is the complete change in shifting approach. In some ways this is a logical change once you're uncoupled from needing to pull and release a bit of wire but, on the other hand, it might lose one of the aspects I love about Di2: the fact that it becomes totally subliminal. If you run a mech group on one bike and an eTap on another, jumping between bikes is going to require a bit of brain rewiring. All of this is seemingly to overcome what I've never seen as an issue: shifting in thick gloves. I know that this brain training can be an issue because I experience in my cars. In my Fiat, a flick up of the right stalk gives a stroke of the wipers. Doing the same in my Merc (in a bit of spray from a passing truck) sticks the auto box into neutral.
I'm sure if you run just one bike (or type), you'll be fine.
I'm genuinely intrigued to see how eTap works - I'm not anti the idea I'm just not sure about the unnecessary complexity in a world where wireless is far from sorted. Canbus, on the other hand, has been around since at least the 80s. The proof of the pudding...ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
What I find entertaining are Di2 converts saying that they are not convinced about wireless shifting technology saying that they don't trust it, step too far, who needs wireless anyway etc.
it is a bit like the mechanical diehards criticising Di2. makes me smile anyway.
Being one of those mechanical die-hards, the previous few posts have brought a smile to my face.
However I must say that of all the electric groups it's the SRAM wireless that interests me the most, it does look very neat and easy to install, as previously said I'm sure that both Campag and Shimano are developing similar systems.
I shall still be waiting for all the systems to mature, maybe I'll treat myself to a new bike in 2025............0 -
Being one of those mechanical die-hards, the previous few posts have brought a smile to my face.
I don't know if you're an engineer (I have to assume not) but I think you've missed the point if they made you smile. I'm genuinely interested in the SRAM solution but I've got to say that, if it were a system I was designing, I doubt I'd go that route. As I said in a previous post, I lead a team responsible for testing pretty complex consumer electronics and I was only the other day having a conversation with a Radio Engineer about the complexities of such systems. I can absolutely see the point in having wireless connections to power meters and performance meters (one is a rotating part and the other removeable). I'm also totally sold on electronic shifting. Going wireless for permanently installed parts just seems an unnecessary step. I think I can almost guarantee (all other things being equal) that wireless will be less reliable than wired - it's just an engineering fact arising from that additional complexity. If doing without wires is that important, all is good.
I hope that this is just an enabling step to a much bolder move: a totally different interface built into gloves or helmet or something. Going wireless and leaving the controls where they were on mechanical shifting seems unimaginativeROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
We're coming to this from different points of view, your interest appears to come from electronics/engineering end, whereas I'm purely an end user.
Di2 has no real interest for me as it just change cables for wires and increased cost, I tried it a couple of times (once for a week, on holiday) it worked fine, but I saw no real world advantage for me, just downsides.
Now the wireless system appears to be the electronic system we've all really been waiting for, no hiding wires inside the frame, making it look vaguely tidy with zip ties etc. no big battery bolted onto the frame/seatpost/saddlebag/wherever. Now I have no idea if the SRAM will work well, but as an end user it looks neater and much easier to install, it certainly looks like a proper leap in technology.0 -
I'm actually coming at it from the point of a user - I think electronic shifting is great. As I've written a couple of times in this thread, it makes shifting subliminal - I can concentrate on cycling or whatever else I'm thinking about - 160k on the bike for me is pure release.
The aesthetics is what seems to appeal to most people about eTap: on most modern frames that's really just one wire from under the stem disappearing into the frame and a short wire from the frame into each of the derailleurs - each about 5cm long. The battery tends to be internal so no wires to be seen. Most people would struggle to see them from 5 feet away. My Foil doesn't have a single tie-wrap on it.
Aesthetics is an OK reason to want eTap. From an engineering point of view, I'm interested to see if they can make wireless work reliably. I don't know of a single wireless system that has the reliability that I want - whether that's the link from my PM or HRM, my wireless keyboard and mouse, or my phone's BT connection to my car. I speak as an early adopter and technophile. I do, however, want it to succeed - especially if it converts a few mech evangelists ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
If you believe what is written in the links I posted, they have had hundreds of units in the field over the last couple of years and can count the total number of mis-shifts on one hand. so if this is really the case, then it is reliable.0
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If you believe what is written in the links I posted, they have had hundreds of units in the field over the last couple of years and can count the total number of mis-shifts on one hand. so if this is really the case, then it is reliable.
I wish life was as simple as that. My rule-of-thumb is that any issues in testing will mushroom at launch. If you see no issues in testing, you might be lucky but it's no guarantee.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
If you believe what is written in the links I posted, they have had hundreds of units in the field over the last couple of years and can count the total number of mis-shifts on one hand. so if this is really the case, then it is reliable.
I wish life was as simple as that. My rule-of-thumb is that any issues in testing will mushroom at launch. If you see no issues in testing, you might be lucky but it's no guarantee.
Totally agree with the above. As an ex IT man I could guarantee that no matter how much testing was carried out prior to release there would always be one or two nasties that got through. I always said that you cannot make software idiot proof as the quality of the idiots in the world at large far surpasses the tame ones we used for testing.Rose Xeon CDX 3100, Ultegra Di2 disc (nice weather)
Ribble Gran Fondo, Campagnolo Centaur (winter bike)
Van Raam 'O' Pair
Land Rover (really nasty weather )0 -
It'll be interesting to see how large SRAM's wireless brifters are. On top of the simple switches that Di2 needs, wireless will require a battery (a coin cell I'm guessing), circuit boards and an antenna. Where they will put the interface (assuming there's something to tell you battery status, mode etc) I don't know. I'd imagine the power requirements for the derailleurs will mean something more chunky than a single coin cell. Somewhere you also need to configure the system - phone app? Garmin? - to pair components so that they're all on the same "network". This is all the stuff that seems unnecessary simply to do away with some pretty discrete wires (that could be even more discrete if bars and stems were designed for Di2 or, better still, integrated Di2 with Garmin-style features and lights within the stem and bars)
I'm surprised that 'as an engineer' (I'm a mech.eng too by the way) you would make assumptions and guesses, when all the info has been out there for months. Just one quick look at the SRAM mechs tells you that the battery is indeed 'more chunky than a coin cell'.
But I agree that I have never owned or used anything wireless that has been 100% perfect.
I sold our SONOS speaker system as it was never reliable and always required updating.
My Garmin, HR, Di2 gear pos. sender, Iphone link, MOSTLY works OK, but there are often days when it just decides not too.
Phone linked to car, sometimes requires re-linking, no rhyme or reason.
So for my gears, I think I'll stick with wires for now.0 -
I hadn't bothered looking as it hasn't been formally launched yet and I know that there are often (always?) changes between pre-launch products and commercial release. And I did say earlier in the thread that the dérailleurs wouldn't use just coin cells - my point was around the additional requirements and size of the brifters (which I specifically mention in what you quoted) due to going wireless.
I will specifically ask my RF engineer what he thinks about this specific application. But experience of our own products and those that I have myself that it is highly unlikely that it will match the reliability of wired systems.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
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On my commute i ride by some big electrical cupboards - my solid light starts flashing like crazy. I'd be uneasy with any electrical system around there, let alone wireless.
We are so off topic0 -
Weird isnt it? i would nt touch Di2 BUT i would be interested in etap, even i cant explain that one lol! not 1st gen though and that might be sram's problem.... getting it to market, now they ll also be 3 types of the same frame
Coded hrm/speedometers/trainers get around interference and its highly likely that Sram might have thought of this one? of course new scenarios might arise?
But i think this is a good bit of design by Sram, having seen it in the flesh, it looks brilliant and the hoods are really neat too.0 -
If you want DA Di2 but don't want all of those messy wires, you could just buy one of these
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/road/product/review-trek-madone-9-series-project-one-49586/ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Is the real only differences the cost and a bit of weight.
1. Weight. Mostly in the crank.
2. The hoods are slightly thinner on DA9070. 6870 hoods are abit more comfy i found.
3. On 6870, the brake levers are made of aluminium unlike the carbon levers on Ultegra 6800.
4. Shifting exactly the same.0 -
If they manage to implement a reliable wifi connectivity, there would be no need for rear derailleur or external brakes - all gearing and stoppage could go into the tall, flat hub, covered by frisbee-like caps on both sides for maximum aero.0
