Froome's Data
Comments
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Doc Swart goes postal in the asylum. Recommended.
Link?
I enjoyed the podcast.
Ross clearly has no idea how he comes across. I discussed this with him briefly during the Tour and he was convinced he was being neutral.
Friebos did hit the nail on the head. All of this is interesting and everything but it's not moving us forward at all. It's like CSI convincing everyone that crimes are solved by forensics. If they are, it's extremely rare - They do provide additional evidence, but only to support good old fashioned detective work and traditional evidence.
Did anyone else notice the whole "estimated power numbers are broadly accurate" and then "it's a pity we don't have power numbers for the 90's" - erm, guys, work it out?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Nice post form swart shame none of them will listen to what he has to say. As he says if anyone posts something that doesn't fit in with their way of thinking they ignore it and move on0
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Swart = legendFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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Doc Swart goes postal in the asylum. Recommended.
Link?
I enjoyed the podcast.
Ross clearly has no idea how he comes across. I discussed this with him briefly during the Tour and he was convinced he was being neutral.
Friebos did hit the nail on the head. All of this is interesting and everything but it's not moving us forward at all. It's like CSI convincing everyone that crimes are solved by forensics. If they are, it's extremely rare - They do provide additional evidence, but only to support good old fashioned detective work and traditional evidence.
Did anyone else notice the whole "estimated power numbers are broadly accurate" and then "it's a pity we don't have power numbers for the 90's" - erm, guys, work it out?
i remember Friebos making a good point about anti-doping practices (he's made a number, I know) in a podcast during the 2013 Vuelta, which was one of the things he'd like to see is a 'real-time' approach to in-comp testing, so if for example you get a rider not hitherto known for his immerse TT prowess such as Pozzovivo monstering that TT as he did during that Vuelta, note that and tug him for post-stage doping control (hastily adding disclaimers re impugning the Pozzowagon's character :-))0 -
Hey we got a mention on the clinic. Apparently we're all vehement "froome is clean" people and we try to get anyone who disagrees banned.
News to me
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It's s home for the narcissistic, and socially inept.
You can't even argue you go there for discussions because 140 characters won't do it. It's basically a massive blow- idol.
So I took my narcissistic and socially inept ass over to Twitter to ask Ross and Jeroen what questions remained given the podcast comments that Froome was way below previous dopers' levels. Ross sent me loads of links. I then asked directly if they had seen Froome perform at an 'ET' level:
Bastablon @jazzporridge 7h7 hours ago
@Scienceofsport @JeroenSwart Thanks. I'll have a read. But can you clarify if you've seen Froome perform beyond 'known' limits?
Ross Tucker @Scienceofsport 7h7 hours ago
@jazzporridge @JeroenSwart The consistent message is that all the TDF top 5 are at the upper end of what is plausible with known physiology
Jeroen Swart @JeroenSwart 7h7 hours ago
@jazzporridge @Scienceofsport I've said a few times that the answer to that is a definite "no"
Admirable clarity from Swart, and I look forward to Quintana, Nibali, Valverde, Contador et al being hounded by Tucker and co....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
Unfortunately, he's now getting drawn into the usual Clinic troll brawl.
He should have just left (as promised) after landing his technical KO."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762702#p19762702]Blazing Saddles[/url] wrote:Unfortunately, he's now getting drawn into the usual Clinic troll brawl.
He should have just left (as promised) after landing his technical KO.
Wrestling with pigs blah blah both get dirty blah blah pigs love it.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762702#p19762702]Blazing Saddles[/url] wrote:Unfortunately, he's now getting drawn into the usual Clinic troll brawl.
He should have just left (as promised) after landing his technical KO.
Wrestling with pigs blah blah both get dirty blah blah pigs love it.
To be honest, he completely destroyed Vayer last week, so maybe he can get one or two of the loons in the asylum. Kicking a dead pig, as it were.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762702#p19762702]Blazing Saddles[/url] wrote:Unfortunately, he's now getting drawn into the usual Clinic troll brawl.
He should have just left (as promised) after landing his technical KO.
Wrestling with pigs blah blah both get dirty blah blah pigs love it.
To be honest, he completely destroyed Vayer last week, so maybe he can get one or two of the loons in the asylum. Kicking a dead pig, as it were.
Vayer gets published in l'equipe, right?
The asylum is an internet forum....
I've said it again - forums needed to be treated like fringe loonies, and are opinions should be not be considered as anything consequential.
By joining the clinic all he does is legitimise it as somewhere where an opinion actually matters.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762702#p19762702]Blazing Saddles[/url] wrote:Unfortunately, he's now getting drawn into the usual Clinic troll brawl.
He should have just left (as promised) after landing his technical KO.
Wrestling with pigs blah blah both get dirty blah blah pigs love it.
To be honest, he completely destroyed Vayer last week, so maybe he can get one or two of the loons in the asylum. Kicking a dead pig, as it were.
Jeroen "The Cape Town Carver" Swart, with a potential career in pig butchery and bacon smoking.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762702#p19762702]Blazing Saddles[/url] wrote:Unfortunately, he's now getting drawn into the usual Clinic troll brawl.
He should have just left (as promised) after landing his technical KO.
Wrestling with pigs blah blah both get dirty blah blah pigs love it.
To be honest, he completely destroyed Vayer last week, so maybe he can get one or two of the loons in the asylum. Kicking a dead pig, as it were.
Jeroen "The Cape Town Carver" Swart, with a potential career in pig butchery and bacon smoking.
We are the people that want Froome to be clean. They are the people who want Froome to be doped. Most people think he's doped though apparently.
I had a big Twatter exchange with the nutters including Tucker this lunchtime. It is plainly clear that he feels his demonisation of Froome is perfectly acceptable. The bloke is a dick who cares about nothing except his own personal popularity as Head Troll. Not a thought for the people he accuses/slanders.
RR2 said to me earlier that she felt Swart should leave them to it now, and I think she's spot on. There is no reasoning.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762702#p19762702]Blazing Saddles[/url] wrote:Unfortunately, he's now getting drawn into the usual Clinic troll brawl.
He should have just left (as promised) after landing his technical KO.
Wrestling with pigs blah blah both get dirty blah blah pigs love it.
To be honest, he completely destroyed Vayer last week, so maybe he can get one or two of the loons in the asylum. Kicking a dead pig, as it were.
Jeroen "The Cape Town Carver" Swart, with a potential career in pig butchery and bacon smoking.
We are the people that want Froome to be clean. They are the people who want Froome to be doped. Most people think he's doped though apparently.
Most people?
Most in the world?
Most cycling fans?
Most team Sky enemies?
Most people on cycling forums?0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762702#p19762702]Blazing Saddles[/url] wrote:Unfortunately, he's now getting drawn into the usual Clinic troll brawl.
He should have just left (as promised) after landing his technical KO.
Wrestling with pigs blah blah both get dirty blah blah pigs love it.
To be honest, he completely destroyed Vayer last week, so maybe he can get one or two of the loons in the asylum. Kicking a dead pig, as it were.
Jeroen "The Cape Town Carver" Swart, with a potential career in pig butchery and bacon smoking.
We are the people that want Froome to be clean. They are the people who want Froome to be doped. Most people think he's doped though apparently.
Most people?
Most in the world?
Most cycling fans?
Most team Sky enemies?
Most people on cycling forums?
Take a look for yourself on there.0 -
I think it's fair to say that most people would want the winner of the Tour, or any race, whoever that might be, to be clean. It would be perverse to want otherwise.Most people?
Most in the world?
Most cycling fans?
Most team Sky enemies?
Most people on cycling forums?Twitter: @RichN950 -
Totally perverse. I don't know why so many think that it's necessary, it's not like cycling history is full of doped winners. Since the 1890's there were clean champions like Choppy Warburton, Henri Pelissier, Fausto Coppi, Jacques Anquetil, Tommy Simpson, Eddy Merckx, Joop Zoetemelk, Freddy Maertens, Michel Pollentier, Bernard Thevenet, Stephen Rooks, Laurent Fignon and Francesco Moser. Major champions only started doping in the last 20-25 years when Spain, Italy and Eastern Bloc countries started infiltrating the upper echelons of the sport.
I think it's fair to say that most people would want the winner of the Tour, or any race, whoever that might be, to be clean. It would be perverse to want otherwise.Most people?
Most in the world?
Most cycling fans?
Most team Sky enemies?
Most people on cycling forums?
If only places like The Clinic understood that cycling is going back to its roots, then maybe they wouldn't question Froome and co.Supporter of Sky, transparency and clean cycling. Opponent of pseudoscience.
The greatest clean cycling performance ever http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eiN2vfGKhk0 -
You don't appear to know the difference between 'want' and 'think'.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762850#p19762850]Hercules Rockefeller[/url] wrote:
Totally perverse. I don't know why so many think that it's necessary, it's not like cycling history is full of doped winners. Since the 1890's there were clean champions like Choppy Warburton, Henri Pelissier, Fausto Coppi, Jacques Anquetil, Tommy Simpson, Eddy Merckx, Joop Zoetemelk, Freddy Maertens, Michel Pollentier, Bernard Thevenet, Stephen Rooks, Laurent Fignon and Francesco Moser. Major champions only started doping in the last 20-25 years when Spain, Italy and Eastern Bloc countries started infiltrating the upper echelons of the sport.
I think it's fair to say that most people would want the winner of the Tour, or any race, whoever that might be, to be clean. It would be perverse to want otherwise.Most people?
Most in the world?
Most cycling fans?
Most team Sky enemies?
Most people on cycling forums?
If only places like The Clinic understood that cycling is going back to its roots, then maybe they wouldn't question Froome and co.
You can think a rider is a doping all you like, but to want them to be? Why?
That would require someone to place higher value on the self gratification of being able to say I told you so, over the broader good of clean cyclists winning big races. And such thinking would indeed be perverse.Twitter: @RichN950 -
You're preaching to the choir here buddy. Do some research and you might get it
You don't appear to know the difference between 'want' and 'think'.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762850#p19762850]Hercules Rockefeller[/url] wrote:
Totally perverse. I don't know why so many think that it's necessary, it's not like cycling history is full of doped winners. Since the 1890's there were clean champions like Choppy Warburton, Henri Pelissier, Fausto Coppi, Jacques Anquetil, Tommy Simpson, Eddy Merckx, Joop Zoetemelk, Freddy Maertens, Michel Pollentier, Bernard Thevenet, Stephen Rooks, Laurent Fignon and Francesco Moser. Major champions only started doping in the last 20-25 years when Spain, Italy and Eastern Bloc countries started infiltrating the upper echelons of the sport.
I think it's fair to say that most people would want the winner of the Tour, or any race, whoever that might be, to be clean. It would be perverse to want otherwise.Most people?
Most in the world?
Most cycling fans?
Most team Sky enemies?
Most people on cycling forums?
If only places like The Clinic understood that cycling is going back to its roots, then maybe they wouldn't question Froome and co.
You can think a rider is a doping all you like, but to want them to be? Why?
That would require someone to place higher value on the self gratification of being able to say I told you so, over the broader good of clean cyclists winning big races. And such thinking would indeed be perverse.
Supporter of Sky, transparency and clean cycling. Opponent of pseudoscience.
The greatest clean cycling performance ever http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eiN2vfGKhk0 -
Another factor that is hard to quantify, is the biological passport kicking in from 2009, I think. Pretty much coinciding with team Sky forming.
The passport was introduced in 2008.0 -
And as we all saw, it was immediately effective. As the likes of Alberto Contador will testify.Another factor that is hard to quantify, is the biological passport kicking in from 2009, I think. Pretty much coinciding with team Sky forming.
The passport was introduced in 2008.Supporter of Sky, transparency and clean cycling. Opponent of pseudoscience.
The greatest clean cycling performance ever http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eiN2vfGKhk0 -
Not in any way doubting the validity of the results.
And the only other thing that stands out is if he is basically as for now as he was in 2007, why wasn't he better back then? Less weight would certainly make you a better climber, but that's only one part of the puzzle. Again - not doubting the results, just wondering why.
Good point. Veloclinic doesn' think much of Swart's weight loss hypothesis:... it offers a failed hypothesis of a weight loss mechanism to explain the grand tour transformation and provides no significant evidence to decrease the prior probability of doping.
See his Tumblr blog for the full post.
Ferrari also finds it amusing:Lastly, one can't help but smile at the conclusion of the South African physiologist Jeroen Swart: "He just lost the fat"... (a remark I seem to remember I already heard about 16 years ago).0 -
I don't know why they're so snarky, Rasmussen managed to do it and even upped his TT ability in the process. It's not like Brailsford would let his riders associate with dodgy Dutch doctors either.Not in any way doubting the validity of the results.
And the only other thing that stands out is if he is basically as for now as he was in 2007, why wasn't he better back then? Less weight would certainly make you a better climber, but that's only one part of the puzzle. Again - not doubting the results, just wondering why.
Good point. Veloclinic doesn' think much of Swart's weight loss hypothesis:... it offers a failed hypothesis of a weight loss mechanism to explain the grand tour transformation and provides no significant evidence to decrease the prior probability of doping.
See his Tumblr blog for the full post.
Ferrari also finds it amusing:Lastly, one can't help but smile at the conclusion of the South African physiologist Jeroen Swart: "He just lost the fat"... (a remark I seem to remember I already heard about 16 years ago).Supporter of Sky, transparency and clean cycling. Opponent of pseudoscience.
The greatest clean cycling performance ever http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eiN2vfGKhk0 -
You don't appear to know the difference between 'want' and 'think'.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762850#p19762850]Hercules Rockefeller[/url] wrote:
Totally perverse. I don't know why so many think that it's necessary, it's not like cycling history is full of doped winners. Since the 1890's there were clean champions like Choppy Warburton, Henri Pelissier, Fausto Coppi, Jacques Anquetil, Tommy Simpson, Eddy Merckx, Joop Zoetemelk, Freddy Maertens, Michel Pollentier, Bernard Thevenet, Stephen Rooks, Laurent Fignon and Francesco Moser. Major champions only started doping in the last 20-25 years when Spain, Italy and Eastern Bloc countries started infiltrating the upper echelons of the sport.
I think it's fair to say that most people would want the winner of the Tour, or any race, whoever that might be, to be clean. It would be perverse to want otherwise.Most people?
Most in the world?
Most cycling fans?
Most team Sky enemies?
Most people on cycling forums?
If only places like The Clinic understood that cycling is going back to its roots, then maybe they wouldn't question Froome and co.
You can think a rider is a doping all you like, but to want them to be? Why?
That would require someone to place higher value on the self gratification of being able to say I told you so, over the broader good of clean cyclists winning big races. And such thinking would indeed be perverse.
Aye. Not sure that cycling as a sport ranks high on the interest list for such.0 -
Anyways...pre-season friendlies start soon. The time of the year when I find myself wondering whether there's any remote possibility the organisers of the Tour de San Luis have invested in more than 2 cameras0
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Not in any way doubting the validity of the results.
And the only other thing that stands out is if he is basically as for now as he was in 2007, why wasn't he better back then? Less weight would certainly make you a better climber, but that's only one part of the puzzle. Again - not doubting the results, just wondering why.
Good point. Veloclinic doesn' think much of Swart's weight loss hypothesis:... it offers a failed hypothesis of a weight loss mechanism to explain the grand tour transformation and provides no significant evidence to decrease the prior probability of doping.
See his Tumblr blog for the full post.
Ferrari also finds it amusing:Lastly, one can't help but smile at the conclusion of the South African physiologist Jeroen Swart: "He just lost the fat"... (a remark I seem to remember I already heard about 16 years ago).
Alright Cuthbert.
3 posts all about doping, makes me a little concerned.
Feel free to use other parts of the forum and discuss other topics. Adds more value.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762863#p19762863]Hercules Rockefeller[/url] wrote:
I don't know why they're so snarky, Rasmussen managed to do it and even upped his TT ability in the process. It's not like Brailsford would let his riders associate with dodgy Dutch doctors either.Not in any way doubting the validity of the results.
And the only other thing that stands out is if he is basically as for now as he was in 2007, why wasn't he better back then? Less weight would certainly make you a better climber, but that's only one part of the puzzle. Again - not doubting the results, just wondering why.
Good point. Veloclinic doesn' think much of Swart's weight loss hypothesis:... it offers a failed hypothesis of a weight loss mechanism to explain the grand tour transformation and provides no significant evidence to decrease the prior probability of doping.
See his Tumblr blog for the full post.
Ferrari also finds it amusing:Lastly, one can't help but smile at the conclusion of the South African physiologist Jeroen Swart: "He just lost the fat"... (a remark I seem to remember I already heard about 16 years ago).
Big fan of Rasmussen? You mention him a lot.
I was hoping you'd answer my previous questions to you earlier on, but you seemed to have ignored that.
Any particular reason?0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762865#p19762865]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:Anyways...pre-season friendlies start soon. The time of the year when I find myself wondering whether there's any remote possibility the organisers of the Tour de San Luis have invested in more than 2 cameras
Why would you want that? It's the world's most fascinating finish line, and I like watching the back of peoples' heads.@shraap | My Men 2016: G, Yogi, Cav, Boonen, Degenkolb, Martin, J-Rod, Kudus, Chaves0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19762865#p19762865]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:Anyways...pre-season friendlies start soon. The time of the year when I find myself wondering whether there's any remote possibility the organisers of the Tour de San Luis have invested in more than 2 cameras
Why would you want that? It's the world's most fascinating finish line, and I like watching the back of peoples' heads.
Its true there are a few riders I'd like to see the back of...0
