Sticking to the plan... endurance rides
nicklong
Posts: 231
Wonder if anyone can help me with a question I have.
I've read that the tough part of slow, long steady Z2 rides to build aerobic endurance is that it is hard work (mentally) to stay in the zone and not work harder.
My question is, if you do 3 hours at Z2 pace but once every hour you do a short (5 min) V02max interval, what does that do to the rest of your aerobic training?
I can't get my head round the fact that the short HI intervals will throw the rest of the training impulse in the bin per se. There isn't really much in the way of fatigue, but what sort of load is being generated? Will I miss out on any adaptation because of a couple of hard efforts over a whole ride?
Basically, I am happy to tootle around at a slow pace but there are a couple of hill segments in the area which I get to ride up so rarely that I'd like to still put a time in...
I've read that the tough part of slow, long steady Z2 rides to build aerobic endurance is that it is hard work (mentally) to stay in the zone and not work harder.
My question is, if you do 3 hours at Z2 pace but once every hour you do a short (5 min) V02max interval, what does that do to the rest of your aerobic training?
I can't get my head round the fact that the short HI intervals will throw the rest of the training impulse in the bin per se. There isn't really much in the way of fatigue, but what sort of load is being generated? Will I miss out on any adaptation because of a couple of hard efforts over a whole ride?
Basically, I am happy to tootle around at a slow pace but there are a couple of hill segments in the area which I get to ride up so rarely that I'd like to still put a time in...
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Comments
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Fantastic answer, thanks. Exactly what I was looking for.
So, in effect, a quick bout of high-intensity triggers the carb-burning system and it takes 30 mins to get back to the fat-burning system. That makes sense, guess I need to be more disciplined!
Agree re: Z2 not just being 'slow' - I was surprised how much mild fatigue there was towards the end of my last weekend ride, I never had that satisfying tiredness, but a general sense that spinning needed a lot more concentration. Setting an alarm on my Edge which triggered whenever my cadence dropped below 90 worked well!0 -
I don't know how anyone can look at that book and think anything positive about it. It looks like utter cobblers.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0
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I am doing Zone 2 rides, but trying to ensure my Heart Rate doesn't go above a certain level rather than concentrate too much on my cadence. If on a bit of a hill I will do down the gears and back off the cadence to ensure that my HR doesn't go too high.Fantastic answer, thanks. Exactly what I was looking for.
So, in effect, a quick bout of high-intensity triggers the carb-burning system and it takes 30 mins to get back to the fat-burning system. That makes sense, guess I need to be more disciplined!
Agree re: Z2 not just being 'slow' - I was surprised how much mild fatigue there was towards the end of my last weekend ride, I never had that satisfying tiredness, but a general sense that spinning needed a lot more concentration. Setting an alarm on my Edge which triggered whenever my cadence dropped below 90 worked well!0 -
I don't know how anyone can look at that book and think anything positive about it. It looks like utter cobblers.
Just had a read of your blog, I guess you know best.
Not at all. I have a coach, but I didn't have one until I was doing ok and winning races - but it just seems to be so exacting which leads me to think it's likely a bit crap - zones and sessions generally have a fairly big spread of watts or HR because that's just normal for rising varied terrain - not sure what possible damage might come from entering a higher HR zone here and there....Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
There is absolutely no need to become a zone drone.
It's not particularly practical for most people in any case and there is no evidence to suggest it's either necessary or optimal to do rides in such a manner.
All one need do is monitor overall that they are meeting the day's objectives in the broader context of overall training plans and objectives. If you need guidance on whether the day broadly met objectives, check the normalized power.
IOW if you randomly decide to toss in a few hard efforts, it's no big deal, unless that compromises your ability to execute the day's plan (e.g. you crack early) or it compromises training on subsequent days.
Training and the physiological improvements that result are neither made nor destroyed by what you do on one day - it's an integral over a much longer time frame.0 -
Did you ask why?0
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Did you ask why?
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
The important thing to understand is that there is no ''magic'' that happens at zone2, it's just a level of effort that can be sustained for a long time, without adversely impacting next day's training.
That's it.0 -
That would depend how long you do it for but yes. Reduce intensity if doing so allows you to increase your training load. That sums up base training for me.0
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That would depend how long you do it for but yes. Reduce intensity if doing so allows you to increase your training load. That sums up base training for me.
Right. A six hour z2 might be 300TSS, so that would be noticeable the next day
You have put it better than I; if by doing some of your rides at z2, you can elevate your weekly TSS without compromising the quality of the more intense training, then you will benefit.0 -
Did you ask why?
I didn't need to, because he told me.VamP wrote:The important thing to understand is that there is no ''magic'' that happens at zone2, it's just a level of effort that can be sustained for a long time, without adversely impacting next day's training.
That's it.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/zone-2-training-for-endurance-athletes
I hate people who respond to a debate by posting links to articles. Invariably it signifies that they have no clue, as well as zero respect for other people's time.0 -
And?Did you ask why?
I didn't need to, because he told me.
I'm not saying it's wrong as a way of moderating intensity but that doesn't mean it's critical to stay below a certain power.
Worrying about fat vs glycogen and all these underlying processes is way overthinking things. Train more / harder is going to be the answer for the most part.0 -
The important thing to understand is that there is no ''magic'' that happens at zone2, it's just a level of effort that can be sustained for a long time, without adversely impacting next day's training.
That's it.
But I could ride around for 6 hours in Zone 1 without compromising the following day's training. Doesn't mean I would get any benefit from it.
FWIW - I have come around to the idea of Z2 base miles to build endurance after fighting it for years. Why? Because it works. But A. you need the time to do it and B. the patience to do it and C. the restraint not to just ride harder all the time.
Inevitably - different training structures work for different people and there will always be people who 'win races without doing any dedicated base mile" etc, etc and there will those that need to do the base work so they can add intensity later on.
Like many others - I have a coach - and he is a big proponent of base work at the right times in the year. Intensity all the time doesn't allow you to build over the course of a season.
Take what I say with a grain of salt because I'm going on the basic stuff I've read and what various coaches have told me.
And every time I believe one school of thought, someone with a Sport Science degree comes along on a forum to debunk it all.0 -
Did you ask why?
I didn't need to, because he told me.VamP wrote:The important thing to understand is that there is no ''magic'' that happens at zone2, it's just a level of effort that can be sustained for a long time, without adversely impacting next day's training.
That's it.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/zone-2-training-for-endurance-athletes
I hate people who respond to a debate by posting links to articles. Invariably it signifies that they have no clue, as well as zero respect for other people's time.
So we have different views. No need for insults.
Firstly, I am sorry you feel insulted by what I said, it wasn't intended that way.
Secondly, I don't know if we disagree or not because all you did was post an article that speaks to a number of training issues. You have left me to divine what it was in the article that you meant to say, or what you think it means. Which is kind of a time consuming and pointless game, that I don't like playing. Hence my comment.0 -
The important thing to understand is that there is no ''magic'' that happens at zone2, it's just a level of effort that can be sustained for a long time, without adversely impacting next day's training.
That's it.
But I could ride around for 6 hours in Zone 1 without compromising the following day's training. Doesn't mean I would get any benefit from it.
FWIW - I have come around to the idea of Z2 base miles to build endurance after fighting it for years. Why? Because it works. But A. you need the time to do it and B. the patience to do it and C. the restraint not to just ride harder all the time.
Inevitably - different training structures work for different people and there will always be people who 'win races without doing any dedicated base mile" etc, etc and there will those that need to do the base work so they can add intensity later on.
Like many others - I have a coach - and he is a big proponent of base work at the right times in the year. Intensity all the time doesn't allow you to build over the course of a season.
Take what I say with a grain of salt because I'm going on the basic stuff I've read and what various coaches have told me.
And every time I believe one school of thought, someone with a Sport Science degree comes along on a forum to debunk it all.
I think you might get something out of 6 hours at z1. It wouldn't be worth the time investment though.
I think I should clarify that when I say that nothing ''magic'' happens at z2, I mean that nothing ''uniquely magic'' happens. You get adaptations out of z2 but you get those (and more) at z3 as well. And z4. But it's hard to build that kind of volume of z3 and z4. Which is why z2 works if you have the time. But even if you have the time, there is no need to be didactic about being in z2, the whole z2 and nothing but z2, so help me God.
Unless it leaves you too tired the next day.
That's what I believe, anyway.0 -
FWIW - I don't do Z2 rides all day, every day over the winter (or at any time of the year). Some days are more endurance-based than others. In those sessions I aim to try and get a couple of hours in at a steady (Z2 pace). These rides might be more prolific during the winter than the rest of the year. But my training week (even int he winter) will still feature some intensity and mixed-zone riding.0
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I don't know how anyone can look at that book and think anything positive about it. It looks like utter cobblers.
Just had a read of your blog, I guess you know best.
Not at all. I have a coach, but I didn't have one until I was doing ok and winning races - but it just seems to be so exacting which leads me to think it's likely a bit crap - zones and sessions generally have a fairly big spread of watts or HR because that's just normal for rising varied terrain - not sure what possible damage might come from entering a higher HR zone here and there....
Zones have different peramiters dependant upon the coach and Garry uses gas exchange to find the correct zones. In this case the zone is 10 heart beats wide and the optimum training time is between 1 - 2 hours with decreasing returns thereafter as It saves excessive fatigue and aids recovery.
No damage will be done exceeding these zones and the OP's original question was hitting their VO2 max in Z2 sessions. This then brings in the fast twitch muscle fibres and disrupts the stress being placed on the endurance fibres and will take the body 15 to 20 minutes to clear the anaerobic backlog before full engagement of the target set of muscles.“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
How can a zone range be so small ? i woulnt need much in the way of external influence to alter my so called z2, altering either the test results or subsequent training.0
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yep, zones move according to your fitness and need refreshing in that basis.
The zone seems small but the percentage metric is a broad brush stroke as the zones are specific to the individual.“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
A little intensity all the time is fine.Like many others - I have a coach - and he is a big proponent of base work at the right times in the year. Intensity all the time doesn't allow you to build over the course of a season.
Yes, there is a time and place for modifying the balance of workload conducted at different intensities but complete exclusion of efforts along parts of the intensity spectrum is neither necessary nor supported by evidence.
If anything it can be counterproductive as it may result in denying enjoyment, a critical factor in maintaining motivation over the course of a season.
Those that look at the evidence in depth recognise that very few training fads (e.g. LSD, HIT, 3 weeks on / 1 off, polarised etc) are actually supported by evidence as being universally optimal once the fundamental principles of training are controlled for. There are only a small handful of universal and fundamental training principles.And every time I believe one school of thought, someone with a Sport Science degree comes along on a forum to debunk it all.
However it's remarkable how many struggle to implement them well.0 -
yep, zones move according to your fitness and need refreshing in that basis.
The zone seems small but the percentage metric is a broad brush stroke as the zones are specific to the individual.
What i meant is that if when tested my z2 range was, lets say - 125 to 134 (10 beats) a few days later, after lite sleep or an extra coffee, my z2 range (by your coaches methology) would go out side of that range. leading to less than optimal training, according to him.0 -
And most people who are taking training very seriously will likely be working to power and HR vs just HR, that said I don't use HR at all, I know some swear by it, but I've always paced my efforts well without I think.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0
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I ride in a fasted state prior to breakfast but appreciate that stress, lack of sleep and a multitude of other influences can impact my heart rate.
All I'm endeavouring to do is to train in a more informed and targeted way.
I appreciate more experienced riders can ride by feel but I'd rather try and remove the trial and error from my plan and rely on what's available.“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
There's a video knocking about on Facebook that quashes the whole idea of base training, calling it totally unnecessary and with very little value, especially for the 'time-crunched' cyclist.
When I lived and cycled in Geneva the old boy racers there always swore by 'little ring for the winter', i.e. easy spinning for a good 3 months.
Personally I find it very difficult to ride 3 hours in Zone 1 - 2. Not only is it very boring, but it actually seems to tire me more than a 'normal' ride...
But if you do have the hours, (8+ a week), I reckon there is value in a 2 to 3 hour Z1 - 2 ride. It keeps you fresh for the other rides, and builds in some endurance.0 -
I am seeing benefits already from the last couple on month on inner ring spinning base miles. I will keep it up till Feb. I do put in a number of intervals as well and one fast paced shorter ride every week. My heart rate to hold a steady 220W is about the same as it was over summer to hold 190W. Base miles work but I am doing alot of them 400 to 500km a week at the moment and I will keep this up (500km + a week).
I have to say while I take advise from a coach I do deicide what I am going to do based on what I feel is best for me. I dont tend to read the latest research that what the coach does. the coach also believes high volume works well. What I do know I have seen a 35W improvement in FTP this year and the biggest jump was when I started doing base miles also my performance is becoming more consistant. I do have weeks anymore where I feel like I can't do anything.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Interesting - this thread is pretty much exactly the internal debate I had with myself last year when I started planning my winter training for the 2015 race season.
I basically did HIIT all winter, loads of V02max sufferfest videos (eg Revolver once a week, 9 Hammers etc) and then once a month did a long ride (100+kms) with some friends. The argument that "its all TSS" doesn't stack up for me though, I can knacker myself doing tonnes of 20s sprint sessions on the turbo, or alternatively a 5 hour ride and get a load of TSS but that I'll be stressing completely different energy systems.
The logic that you are stressing an energy system seems to make sense - I need to train my fat burning system.0 -
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0
