Thank You To Shimano
iwilldoit
Posts: 710
Hi All.
Bought a Shimano ES 51 Octalink BB off Wiggle and after 6 months it developed play in it, contacted wiggle and they said Shimano don't guarantee bearings so sorry you will have buy another one
Well I thought most things have a 12 month guarantee, so had a look on the Shimano site and they say they give a 2 year guarantee but couldn't see a mention about bearings so thought I would email them to find out, took a few days to have a reply and then passed over to someone else ( thought here we go, get passed from pillar to post ) but no they called me, didn't want the old one to check, just what's your address and the next day TNT knock on the door and new BB has arrived
So a big thanks to Shimano.
Bought a Shimano ES 51 Octalink BB off Wiggle and after 6 months it developed play in it, contacted wiggle and they said Shimano don't guarantee bearings so sorry you will have buy another one
Well I thought most things have a 12 month guarantee, so had a look on the Shimano site and they say they give a 2 year guarantee but couldn't see a mention about bearings so thought I would email them to find out, took a few days to have a reply and then passed over to someone else ( thought here we go, get passed from pillar to post ) but no they called me, didn't want the old one to check, just what's your address and the next day TNT knock on the door and new BB has arrived
So a big thanks to Shimano.
0
Comments
-
Hi All.
Bought a Shimano ES 51 Octalink BB off Wiggle and after 6 months it developed play in it, contacted wiggle and they said Shimano don't guarantee bearings so sorry you will have buy another one
Well I thought most things have a 12 month guarantee, so had a look on the Shimano site and they say they give a 2 year guarantee but couldn't see a mention about bearings so thought I would email them to find out, took a few days to have a reply and then passed over to someone else ( thought here we go, get passed from pillar to post ) but no they called me, didn't want the old one to check, just what's your address and the next day TNT knock on the door and new BB has arrived
So a big thanks to Shimano.
Well done for sorting it out quickly, I would still be arguing with Wiggle about the sale of goods act. To go with such arguments I have had with Argos, Comet and Dr Matins to name but a few0 -
They don't usually guarantee wear and tear parts - someone could rack up 50 miles a day on one for instance. But good service outside of the retailer.0
-
They don't usually guarantee wear and tear parts - someone could rack up 50 miles a day on one for instance. But good service outside of the retailer.
All parts are ''wear and tear'' parts ! but it has nothing to do Guarantees and every thing to do with merchantable quality and the retailers responsibility to provide it.
Far too many just say'' OH its not or is out of guarantee'' as if that relieves them of their responsibility. If they were to mark their goods with '' this part is crap and will probably fail in 50 miles'', they may have a point, but otherwise 50 miles a day for several years is a reasonable expectation of a new bearing0 -
But it depends on the price paid and reasonable expectation of how long they will last with wear and tear. 50 miles a day for several years is not a reasonable expectation with a £10 octalink bottom bracket and you'd have no hope of getting anywhere trying to prove it was. Pay £100 and you'd have a better case with bearings. It is a slightly grey area granted. If the axle had snapped from a manufacturing error, different case completely.0
-
But it depends on the price paid and reasonable expectation of how long they will last with wear and tear. 50 miles a day for several years is not a reasonable expectation with a £10 octalink bottom bracket and you'd have no hope of getting anywhere trying to prove it was. Pay £100 and you'd have a better case with bearings. It is a slightly grey area granted. If the axle had snapped from a manufacturing error, different case completely.
I would expect 250 miles a day for a decade or two for 100 quids, But I get the impression we are talking weeks in the OPs case. How many miles would you say was reasonable from one of these ? The burden of proof is on the retailer to show they provided merchantable quality , All I need to provided is the facts of the failure. Once that's been established , It on them to show that this was reasonable quality for the money charged, not on me to show otherwise0 -
Are you serious?...But it depends on the price paid and reasonable expectation of how long they will last with wear and tear. 50 miles a day for several years is not a reasonable expectation with a £10 octalink bottom bracket and you'd have no hope of getting anywhere trying to prove it was. Pay £100 and you'd have a better case with bearings. It is a slightly grey area granted. If the axle had snapped from a manufacturing error, different case completely.
I would expect 250 miles a day for a decade or two for 100 quids, But I get the impression we are talking weeks in the OPs case. How many miles would you say was reasonable from one of these ? The burden of proof is on the retailer to show they provided merchantable quality , All I need to provided is the facts of the failure. Once that's been established , It on them to show that this was reasonable quality for the money charged, not on me to show otherwise0 -
Are you serious?...But it depends on the price paid and reasonable expectation of how long they will last with wear and tear. 50 miles a day for several years is not a reasonable expectation with a £10 octalink bottom bracket and you'd have no hope of getting anywhere trying to prove it was. Pay £100 and you'd have a better case with bearings. It is a slightly grey area granted. If the axle had snapped from a manufacturing error, different case completely.
I would expect 250 miles a day for a decade or two for 100 quids, But I get the impression we are talking weeks in the OPs case. How many miles would you say was reasonable from one of these ? The burden of proof is on the retailer to show they provided merchantable quality , All I need to provided is the facts of the failure. Once that's been established , It on them to show that this was reasonable quality for the money charged, not on me to show otherwise
Yea I have wheel bearing in my car that have run up half a million miles and they are far less than 100 quid a pop. Why are you so accepting of poor components0 -
Are you serious?...But it depends on the price paid and reasonable expectation of how long they will last with wear and tear. 50 miles a day for several years is not a reasonable expectation with a £10 octalink bottom bracket and you'd have no hope of getting anywhere trying to prove it was. Pay £100 and you'd have a better case with bearings. It is a slightly grey area granted. If the axle had snapped from a manufacturing error, different case completely.
I would expect 250 miles a day for a decade or two for 100 quids, But I get the impression we are talking weeks in the OPs case. How many miles would you say was reasonable from one of these ? The burden of proof is on the retailer to show they provided merchantable quality , All I need to provided is the facts of the failure. Once that's been established , It on them to show that this was reasonable quality for the money charged, not on me to show otherwise
Yea I have wheel bearing in my car that have run up half a million miles and they are far less than 100 quid a pop. Why are you so accepting of poor components
uhm there is a serious difference in size which makes a vast difference? also exposure of road to massive amount of grindy paste...0 -
Personally I do think they should last longer than they do. Maybe you can call it bad design, but the way cartridge bottom brackets work, with the miniscule bearings, they don't - the BB shells are a long standing standard, and are the bottom brackets are treated as a relatively short lifespan throw away item. of course more money should equal longer life - the problem is proving that they should last longer than they did. As before, a tricky, grey area when we involve time scales, rather than usage.
After six months, as in this case, it us up the the buyer to prove that the goods were not fit for purpose or had an inherent fault. Wiggle said it was worn out through normal usage, expected for this type. Shimano either admitted fault, or did it through good will - as you will know the warranty is in addition to your rights, but is sold to you with the goods and forms a contract. They usually mean very little in reality, but can give you additional rights. Chasing it through SOGA would have involved the buyer proving it was faulty/unfit. Not easy.
Now after saying all that, newer standards are meant to address bearing life. External cups, pressfits and the like. Except the reality is that they often die even quicker than the cheapest cartridge bottom brackets! Here I think it would be easier to prove that were not fit for purpose/unreasonable life span.
As for Octalink, I would expect the base ES25 unit, which can be had for £6, to last 50-60 miles a week of off road riding for a year. The ES51 has a better bearing unit - double that. ES71 better still, then XTR, which I know can last for year on year of hard riding. Wiggle were a bit quick to reach their conclusion, I thought they may have asked about usage. For Shimano though, is not worth the hassle for such a cheap item.0 -
"would expect 250 miles a day for a decade or two for 100 quids"
250 * 7 * 52 * 10or20 = 910,000/1,820,000miles so the best part of (put little finger to side of mouth like Austin Powers) One Million Miles.
Yeah right.0 -
"would expect 250 miles a day for a decade or two for 100 quids"
250 * 7 * 52 * 10or20 = 910,000/1,820,000miles so the best part of (put little finger to side of mouth like Austin Powers) One Million Miles.
Yeah right.
there no load on it in comparison to say a car wheels bearing, If they put a 50 quid bearing in a car hub and it lasts greater than a 100,000 miles. Then if they put a 100 quid bearing in a BB 1t should last indefinitely, certainly 10 times longer0 -
After six months, as in this case, it us up the the buyer to prove that the goods were not fit for purpose or had an inherent fault. Wiggle said it was worn out through normal usage, expected for this type. Shimano either admitted fault, or did it through good will - as you will know the warranty is in addition to your rights, but is sold to you with the goods and forms a contract. They usually mean very little in reality, but can give you additional rights. Chasing it through SOGA would have involved the buyer proving it was faulty/unfit. Not easy.
.
Your inventing your own circumstances here. According to OP, wiggle only said it wasn't covered by the manufactures guarantee. There is no mention of them inspecting and coming to a conclusion it was caused by excessive use ?0 -
If your BB is wearing out too fast have you had your BB shell faced? If you are out of true you are going to elicit faster wear.
I know both my bikes have been faced and whilst the BB isn't lasting a million miles (and I don't expect it to) it lasts long enough for me to be happy.
I don't think there is any comparison with a car due to the difference in loads, size of bearing etc etc. Car you don't have to build it small and light, you can beef everything up, pack it with grease, generally plus size everything. Plus of course a worn bearing on a car is a minor bit of extra road noise that half of us tune out where as a small amount of drag on a BB could make the difference between clearing that climb or not.
Someone robs my car of 1% efficiency I might not notice. I sure as hell will on my bike because I don't have a 100+ hp engine.Closet jockey wheel pimp whore.0 -
Loving all the armchair engineering going on here. Keep it up lads.0
-
After six months, as in this case, it us up the the buyer to prove that the goods were not fit for purpose or had an inherent fault. Wiggle said it was worn out through normal usage, expected for this type. Shimano either admitted fault, or did it through good will - as you will know the warranty is in addition to your rights, but is sold to you with the goods and forms a contract. They usually mean very little in reality, but can give you additional rights. Chasing it through SOGA would have involved the buyer proving it was faulty/unfit. Not easy.
.
Your inventing your own circumstances here. According to OP, wiggle only said it wasn't covered by the manufactures guarantee. There is no mention of them inspecting and coming to a conclusion it was caused by excessive use ?
I am interpreting what Wiggle have done. I could be wrong, but when a retailer says this, they almost always mean from usage. 'Bearings aren't covered from normal wear and tear' - is the usual explanation. Either way, it would still be up to the buyer to prove otherwise after six months if he thought the goods were unfit or had a inherent fault.0 -
Are you serious?...But it depends on the price paid and reasonable expectation of how long they will last with wear and tear. 50 miles a day for several years is not a reasonable expectation with a £10 octalink bottom bracket and you'd have no hope of getting anywhere trying to prove it was. Pay £100 and you'd have a better case with bearings. It is a slightly grey area granted. If the axle had snapped from a manufacturing error, different case completely.
I would expect 250 miles a day for a decade or two for 100 quids, But I get the impression we are talking weeks in the OPs case. How many miles would you say was reasonable from one of these ? The burden of proof is on the retailer to show they provided merchantable quality , All I need to provided is the facts of the failure. Once that's been established , It on them to show that this was reasonable quality for the money charged, not on me to show otherwise
Yea I have wheel bearing in my car that have run up half a million miles and they are far less than 100 quid a pop. Why are you so accepting of poor components
Car drivers don't expect their wheel bearings to be really light and ultra low friction though do they? Which is why car wheel bearings are massively oversized for the job and packed with a bucket full of really sticky grease. The same could be done with bottom brackets but I doubt you would like the results.
If you want nice smooth, light bottom brackets and don't want to pay much for them then what do you expect?Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=130702350 -
Hello iwilldoit,
Looks like you had a win! Congratulations
You obviously thought the component should have lasted longer and so did Shimano. Shimano has just gone up a rung in my book, funny how customer satisfaction does that.
You could forward Shmano's response to Wiggle but then again you don't need to bother - just relish in knowing you have a new bottom bracket.. Hope this one lasts you longer!Stay positive people0 -
Are you serious?...But it depends on the price paid and reasonable expectation of how long they will last with wear and tear. 50 miles a day for several years is not a reasonable expectation with a £10 octalink bottom bracket and you'd have no hope of getting anywhere trying to prove it was. Pay £100 and you'd have a better case with bearings. It is a slightly grey area granted. If the axle had snapped from a manufacturing error, different case completely.
I would expect 250 miles a day for a decade or two for 100 quids, But I get the impression we are talking weeks in the OPs case. How many miles would you say was reasonable from one of these ? The burden of proof is on the retailer to show they provided merchantable quality , All I need to provided is the facts of the failure. Once that's been established , It on them to show that this was reasonable quality for the money charged, not on me to show otherwise
Yea I have wheel bearing in my car that have run up half a million miles and they are far less than 100 quid a pop. Why are you so accepting of poor components
Car drivers don't expect their wheel bearings to be really light and ultra low friction though do they? Which is why car wheel bearings are massively oversized for the job and packed with a bucket full of really sticky grease. The same could be done with bottom brackets but I doubt you would like the results.
If you want nice smooth, light bottom brackets and don't want to pay much for them then what do you expect?
''Sticky grease'' ?? grease is a lubricant it decreases ''stickiness that its whole reason for being. Any drag will be infinitesimal and much preferred to the drag of a un- lubricated bearing
In retrospect BBs would benefit greatly from a grease nipple and regular injections of grease0 -
That's just not the case with leg power unfortunately. Grease is drag. So is a trade off with longevity.0
-
That's just not the case with leg power unfortunately. Grease is drag. So is a trade off with longevity.
Ok how much drag does a greased BB add ? You don't know do you ?0 -
Do you?
I don't quite agree with Chunkers, it's a few watts, which isn't necessarily 'noticeable', but will impact. Ceramic Speed reckon c15w from using their lightly oiled hub and BB bearings versus steel bearings. To suggest any bearings on a bike should last a million miles is nothing short of moronic though.
Car/bike comparisons very rarely stack up.0 -
Do you?
I don't particularly agree with Chunkers, it's a few watts, which isn't necessarily 'noticeable', but will impact. Ceramic Speed reckon c15w from using their lightly oiled hub and BB bearings versus steel bearings. To suggest any bearings on a bike should last a million miles is nothing short of moronic though.
Car/bike comparisons very rarely stack up.
No , but I'm not the one claiming it has any measurable effect, So the burden of proof lies with them that do !
Do you also not grease your wheel bearing, so that that wont give any noticeable improvement either ?
It doesn't have to be a car, can you give any other example of a piece of machinery where bearing failure every few months is considered acceptable ? The bearing in my washing machine are well over decade old and that gets more use than my car0 -
I read on the internet that washing machines are pretty rubbish on trails.I don't do smileys.
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
London Calling on Facebook
Parktools0 -
I read on the internet that washing machines are pretty rubbish on trails.
No they work quite well, if you have a long extension lead0 -
Do you also not grease your wheel bearing, so that that wont give any noticeable improvement either
It's comparatively common among pros to remove hub bearing seals and run a light oil to reduce rolling resistance. What's your point?
The washing machine example is even worse. Why haven't you designed this ultimate bearing if every brand on the planet is doing it wrong. Surely that's easy money?0 -
Do you also not grease your wheel bearing, so that that wont give any noticeable improvement either
It's comparatively common among pros to remove hub bearing seals and run a light oil to reduce rolling resistance. What's your point?
The washing machine example is even worse. Why haven't you designed this ultimate bearing if every brand on the planet is doing it wrong. Surely that's easy money?
But your not a PRO are you with sponsorship and backup mechanics, So whats your point ? You were going to give data on how much drag it saved, have you got this info yet ?
The world is full of bearing that run for 1000s of millions revolutions with enormous loads on them,The challenge was to you, give another example of a machine where the bearings fail with regularity of BB
I thought this issue, may be down to poor bearings, but it seems that some folk are deliberately running them with inadequate lubrication, as they have a fantasy it may increase their performance , when the exact opposite is true, it will slow them down, Unless your going to re-oil them every 20 miles or so
My hybrid has done 12,000 miles and the BB is good as new, but then I greased, so it will be, wont it ?0 -
You were going to give data on how much drag it saved, have you got this info yet ?
I did say, c15 watts saved for oiled CeramicSpeed bearings versus standard steel.My hybrid has done 12,000 miles and the BB is good as new, but then I greased, so it will be, wont it ?
You put far too much faith in grease. My MTB has been through 3 bottom brackets in 2000 miles with meticulous care. One of my road bikes has done more than 20,000 miles on one with no attention whatsoever.
Longevity of some is poor, probably verging on unacceptable, but it is the price for using parts we demand be light in a tough environment. I stand by my comment that if no manufacturer on the planet is doing it right, I'm not sure why you think you know better, and why not design this ultra bearing?0 -
You were going to give data on how much drag it saved, have you got this info yet ?
I did say, c15 watts saved for oiled CeramicSpeed bearings versus standard steel.My hybrid has done 12,000 miles and the BB is good as new, but then I greased, so it will be, wont it ?
You put far too much faith in grease. My MTB has been through 3 bottom brackets in 2000 miles with meticulous care. One of my road bikes has done more than 20,000 miles on one with no attention whatsoever.
Longevity of some is poor, probably verging on unacceptable, but it is the price for using parts we demand be light in a tough environment. I stand by my comment that if no manufacturer on the planet is doing it right, I'm not sure why you think you know better, and why not design this ultra bearing?
You said 15w gain for ceramic bearings, that has no bearing ( pun) on the advantage of of NOT greasing steel bearings
So at last we agree that the failure rate is unacceptable ? There is no need for I or anyone else to design a bearing that lasts longer, the tech already exists. There clearly no advantage to the manufacturer to supply longer lasting bearings, If the consumer will happily buy another BB every few hundred miles. There is far more profit this way round0 -
Not all BBs are created equal.I don't do smileys.
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
London Calling on Facebook
Parktools0
