Law for cyclists to have the same rules as drivers
Comments
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When you said it's got worse since open borders. It would seem I'm not the only one that noticed it.
I think you may be the only one that found that particular elephant. Do more foreigners drive TT's? :roll:I'll address the elephant in the room and say I think it has got worse since the open borders regime.
And where have I suggested it is an issue of race?
I know it is, that's the point. You say foreigners have made it worse and Audi TT drivers are the worst. The logical conclusion is that more foreigners drive Audi TTs. It highlights the idiocy of your postDo more foreigners drive TTs is an idiotic comment.
I don't remember the history, but it doesn't surprise me in the least.There's history between you and I and in light of your latest contribution, I'll leave you to the silly games. Pathetic.0 -
Whether its type, origin or volume the fact is that drivers who have had less experience of driving here are possibly more likely to make mistakes. I drive in France a lot and they have very different etiquette as do the Italians, Germans and Spanish. It stands to reason I may make mistakes based on what other drivers expect me to do and not do.
I was hit some years back by a polish registered lorry. Witnessed by two people, drive cam and a plod dealing with another foreign lorry. Plod ensured I had every possible bit of paperwork going on the foreign lorry, as he was very knowledgeable on what they needed to carry, I took copies of his passport, insurance green card everything. Polish motor insurance bureau - " Komputer mówi nie" can't trace the driver, wont pay the claim. My insurance company was useless as I suspect my excess covered 90% of the repair at trade price. So I'm left out of pocket.
I'm not supporting a racist view, but things are different. Add that the fact that the DWP have issued their 100M active NI card in a country where there shouldn't be more than 50-60M tops and we get a clear view of the standard of driving on our roads.
However, enforcement is not the answer for two reason. 1, plod can't be trusted not to make it a revenue opportunity and 2 for every numpty in a disposable car picked up by enforcement (usually automated) we'll get 20 pretty reasonable drivers who happen to drive a bit quick. Net outcome public end up distrusting plod and making their job solving more important crimes 10 times harder.0 -
When you said it's got worse since open borders. It would seem I'm not the only one that noticed it.
I think you may be the only one that found that particular elephant. Do more foreigners drive TT's? :roll:I'll address the elephant in the room and say I think it has got worse since the open borders regime.
And where have I suggested it is an issue of race?
I know it is, that's the point. You say foreigners have made it worse and Audi TT drivers are the worst. The logical conclusion is that more foreigners drive Audi TTs. It highlights the idiocy of your postDo more foreigners drive TTs is an idiotic comment.
I don't remember the history, but it doesn't surprise me in the least.There's history between you and I and in light of your latest contribution, I'll leave you to the silly games. Pathetic.
If you bothered to read the posts you'd see the context I mentioned Audi TTs and A3s in was MY experience of irresponsible drivers to counter suggestions it is 4x4 drivers. Experience of bad drivers is subjective and cannot be labelled at any one type of vehicle.
How is it that Diy gets the point I was making re open borders but you have to go looking for a hidden agenda where there isn't one? You don't know anything of my background but readily jump to conclusions.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
Bit confused here Philthy. You went from presenting a cogent illustration of what amounts to criminal negligence and duty of care to linking poor driving with open borders.
Where is the evidence to support such an assertion? Are foreign drivers more negligent? Anyone driving without the necessary training and care is a menace are they not. If non traceable cars are available to foreigners, I would suspect they are even more readily available to the indigenous lawbreakers.
To spit your dummy out because someone, in this case, Veronese, disagrees with you is well, in your words, pathetic.
If there is history between the pair of you, pray share. Let us know how he's got it in for you. No-one can have sympathy for your position if you don't share your grievance.0 -
Bit confused here Philthy. You went from presenting a cogent illustration of what amounts to criminal negligence and duty of care to linking poor driving with open borders.
Where is the evidence to support such an assertion? Are foreign drivers more negligent? Anyone driving without the necessary training and care is a menace are they not. If non traceable cars are available to foreigners, I would suspect they are even more readily available to the indigenous lawbreakers.
To spit your dummy out because someone, in this case, Veronese, disagrees with you is well, in your words, pathetic.
If there is history between the pair of you, pray share. Let us know how he's got it in for you. No-one can have sympathy for your position if you don't share your grievance.
I don't share squabbles with those who don't need to know. He did not disagree with something I posted but rather jumped to a conclusion. He has contributed nothing to the debate other than point a sarcastic finger.
I never said it was only drivers from the continent that are driving uninsured etc or that they were solely to blame for the increasing poor standards of driving on the roads. The intimation is that they have contributed to it. 30 years as a Police officer gives me a good datum line to assess how things have got worse or better.
Obtaining a UK driving licence is far too easy. Fraudulently obtaining one by getting someone else to sit both the theory and practical tests, or paying off a corrupt driving examiner has been going on for years by UK nationals. Standards of driving in some of the European countries that allow their citizens to exchange it for a UK licence are not the same as those here. Government corruption in some of those countries must logically also mean that some of those licences were obtained fraudulently.
Please don't go looking for agendas where there are none.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
I don't share squabbles with those who don't need to know.
In which case, don't allude to them. Play the ball, not the man.Please don't go looking for agendas where there are none.
This seems to be exactly what you have done withThere's history between you and I and in light of your latest contribution, I'll leave you to the silly games.
You seem to see a motive that I, for one, cannot.0 -
I don't share squabbles with those who don't need to know.
In which case, don't allude to them. Play the ball, not the man.Please don't go looking for agendas where there are none.
This seems to be exactly what you have done withThere's history between you and I and in light of your latest contribution, I'll leave you to the silly games.
You seem to see a motive that I, for one, cannot.
Because you're not party to the previous which from checking turns out to be a different mod with a similar name. I'm big enough to tender my apologies for confusing him with someone else.
Time to move on.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
Bit confused here Philthy. You went from presenting a cogent illustration of what amounts to criminal negligence and duty of care to linking poor driving with open borders.
Where is the evidence to support such an assertion? Are foreign drivers more negligent? Anyone driving without the necessary training and care is a menace are they not. If non traceable cars are available to foreigners, I would suspect they are even more readily available to the indigenous lawbreakers.
To spit your dummy out because someone, in this case, Veronese, disagrees with you is well, in your words, pathetic.
If there is history between the pair of you, pray share. Let us know how he's got it in for you. No-one can have sympathy for your position if you don't share your grievance.
I don't share squabbles with those who don't need to know. He did not disagree with something I posted but rather jumped to a conclusion. He has contributed nothing to the debate other than point a sarcastic finger.
I never said it was only drivers from the continent that are driving uninsured etc or that they were solely to blame for the increasing poor standards of driving on the roads. The intimation is that they have contributed to it. 30 years as a Police officer gives me a good datum line to assess how things have got worse or better.
Obtaining a UK driving licence is far too easy. Fraudulently obtaining one by getting someone else to sit both the theory and practical tests, or paying off a corrupt driving examiner has been going on for years by UK nationals. Standards of driving in some of the European countries that allow their citizens to exchange it for a UK licence are not the same as those here. Government corruption in some of those countries must logically also mean that some of those licences were obtained fraudulently.
Please don't go looking for agendas where there are none.
Seriously? You honestly, honestly believe this? 30 years as a policeman and this is what you believe?
God help us .....Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am
De Sisti wrote:
This is one of the silliest threads I've come across.
Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honoursmithy21 wrote:
He's right you know.0 -
Bit confused here Philthy. You went from presenting a cogent illustration of what amounts to criminal negligence and duty of care to linking poor driving with open borders.
Where is the evidence to support such an assertion? Are foreign drivers more negligent? Anyone driving without the necessary training and care is a menace are they not. If non traceable cars are available to foreigners, I would suspect they are even more readily available to the indigenous lawbreakers.
To spit your dummy out because someone, in this case, Veronese, disagrees with you is well, in your words, pathetic.
If there is history between the pair of you, pray share. Let us know how he's got it in for you. No-one can have sympathy for your position if you don't share your grievance.
I don't share squabbles with those who don't need to know. He did not disagree with something I posted but rather jumped to a conclusion. He has contributed nothing to the debate other than point a sarcastic finger.
I never said it was only drivers from the continent that are driving uninsured etc or that they were solely to blame for the increasing poor standards of driving on the roads. The intimation is that they have contributed to it. 30 years as a Police officer gives me a good datum line to assess how things have got worse or better.
Obtaining a UK driving licence is far too easy. Fraudulently obtaining one by getting someone else to sit both the theory and practical tests, or paying off a corrupt driving examiner has been going on for years by UK nationals. Standards of driving in some of the European countries that allow their citizens to exchange it for a UK licence are not the same as those here. Government corruption in some of those countries must logically also mean that some of those licences were obtained fraudulently.
Please don't go looking for agendas where there are none.
Seriously? You honestly, honestly believe this? 30 years as a policeman and this is what you believe?
God help us .....
Meaning what?I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
Meaning that you have someone who's job is to serve and protect the public, irrelevant of race, creed, colour, religion, nationality, etc etc etc essentially saying that they are all inherent criminals.
I would claim Godwins in this case but it seems that the evidence speaks for itself, m'lud.........Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am
De Sisti wrote:
This is one of the silliest threads I've come across.
Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honoursmithy21 wrote:
He's right you know.0 -
I don't share squabbles with those who don't need to know.
In which case, don't allude to them. Play the ball, not the man.Please don't go looking for agendas where there are none.
This seems to be exactly what you have done withThere's history between you and I and in light of your latest contribution, I'll leave you to the silly games.
You seem to see a motive that I, for one, cannot.
Because you're not party to the previous which from checking turns out to be a different mod with a similar name. I'm big enough to tender my apologies for confusing him with someone else.
Time to move on.
Time to edit the signature then? The mod in question is no longer here.
Are you going to directly tender the apology directly instead of this ^ sideways fashion?
I do not purport to your view of the immigrants. First of all, they want to keep their heads down and any offence may compromise their position.
I know a number of Poles for example that actually turn up to work and actually do the work and rarely whine. All of them are family men and all of them drive like old men. I have never, ever had a argument with driver who was of foreign origin and I first started commuting by bike (1988). I am of foreign origin. Funny that.
In the list of newspaper articles I gave way back of cases of cyclists getting killed on the roads, none of the perpetrators were foreign.
According to the ONS:
"91.0 per cent of the usual resident population identified with at least one UK national identity (English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish, and British) in 2011."
So 9% of the population minus 1.1m other whites (European, American) leaving a very arbitrary 7.3% of the population that is responsible for the attitude on the roads?!seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
No wonder I don't remember the history, I wasn't even there. 0
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No wonder I don't remember the history, I wasn't even there.
If you weren't there, you could not have been doing your job properly. :roll:seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Meaning that you have someone who's job is to serve and protect the public, irrelevant of race, creed, colour, religion, nationality, etc etc etc essentially saying that they are all inherent criminals.
I would claim Godwins in this case but it seems that the evidence speaks for itself, m'lud.........
And if you bothered to read the posts properly instead of trying to throw the race card in hoping to win yourself some extra popularity, you'd actually get that it has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, sexuality, disability, age etc. You're simply another who thinks there is an agenda where there isn't one. WHere have I said that they are all inherent criminals? NOWEHRE. Try reading things instead of just wading in to the conversation with accusations.
I'm actually getting the opinion that the cycling community are a bunch of paranoid idiots. Anyone who dares to disagree with their view that they are persecuted and that the law works against them, then woe betide them. I can see that it is a waste of time dealing with some of you.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
I don't share squabbles with those who don't need to know.
In which case, don't allude to them. Play the ball, not the man.Please don't go looking for agendas where there are none.
This seems to be exactly what you have done withThere's history between you and I and in light of your latest contribution, I'll leave you to the silly games.
You seem to see a motive that I, for one, cannot.
Because you're not party to the previous which from checking turns out to be a different mod with a similar name. I'm big enough to tender my apologies for confusing him with someone else.
Time to move on.
Time to edit the signature then? The mod in question is no longer here.
Are you going to directly tender the apology directly instead of this ^ sideways fashion?
I do not purport to your view of the immigrants. First of all, they want to keep their heads down and any offence may compromise their position.
I know a number of Poles for example that actually turn up to work and actually do the work and rarely whine. All of them are family men and all of them drive like old men. I have never, ever had a argument with driver who was of foreign origin and I first started commuting by bike (1988). I am of foreign origin. Funny that.
In the list of newspaper articles I gave way back of cases of cyclists getting killed on the roads, none of the perpetrators were foreign.
According to the ONS:
"91.0 per cent of the usual resident population identified with at least one UK national identity (English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish, and British) in 2011."
So 9% of the population minus 1.1m other whites (European, American) leaving a very arbitrary 7.3% of the population that is responsible for the attitude on the roads?!
An apology by way of PM was sent. You again make an assumption. Again you make out I've accused all immigrants of being discourteous drivers. Show me where I've said that and I might take you seriously.
Anyone can be selective in how they present their supporting evidence from the media. A sample of a few cases is not representative of the whole.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13466112.Polish_lorry_driver_jailed_for_five_years_for_causing_death_by_dangerous_driving_on_A34/
Didn't take more than 30 seconds to find an example of a driver from the continent being responsible for death by dangerous driving.
As it is, you're merely diverting this away from your original idiotic suggestion.
I bid you good day.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
The problem is though is that you did make the statement that immigrant drivers are worse than native and you also made the statement that they were more than likely to have forged/cheated their way through the British driving test.
I've been around a bit and feel very confident in saying that it takes a long time to find a driving standard, and attitude, as, errrr, select (yup, that's a good word in this case) as that found on the average British road.
Thinking about it, I don't so much claim Godwins but Kipper, which from a man in your position is extremely sad.
Not to mention extremely, extremely worrying.Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am
De Sisti wrote:
This is one of the silliest threads I've come across.
Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honoursmithy21 wrote:
He's right you know.0 -
Don't worry.
Be happy.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Don't worry.
Be happy.
Trying to be happy, I really, really am.
But with viewpoints like this in positions of power, I can't help but be worried. Does this mean that with my dashing Mediterranean looks and skin colour that the next minute I have a sun tan that I am more liable to feel the stop and search on me?
I'm also wondering if these are his personal feelings, those of his peers or an edict from his chain of command?
If not the latter, do they know their people are like this? Is it condoned or encouraged? Do they need to know? Perhaps the OP can clarify.Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am
De Sisti wrote:
This is one of the silliest threads I've come across.
Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honoursmithy21 wrote:
He's right you know.0 -
No wonder I don't remember the history, I wasn't even there.
If you weren't there, you could not have been doing your job properly. :roll:
Perhaps that's why he has been put out to grass as a mod?0 -
And if you bothered to read the posts properly instead of trying to throw the race card in hoping to win yourself some extra popularity, you'd actually get that it has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, sexuality, disability, age etc. You're simply another who thinks there is an agenda where there isn't one. WHere have I said that they are all inherent criminals? NOWEHRE. Try reading things instead of just wading in to the conversation with accusations.
I'm actually getting the opinion that the cycling community are a bunch of paranoid idiots. Anyone who dares to disagree with their view that they are persecuted and that the law works against them, then woe betide them. I can see that it is a waste of time dealing with some of you.
i think if you d not used the phrase "elephant in the room" you may have got your point across a little better?
As i keep saying, without realistic prospect of being caught, which at the moment there isnt, then ALL nationalities of drivers, can if they choose, flout the law.
But those helmet cam warriors who post footage on youtube, all seem to show british drivers behaving like dangerous idiots.
as for us all being paranoid idiots, bit of a sweeping statement, you again dont seem to want to engage anyone in reasoned argument, which isnt a surprise, given your earlier posts.0 -
No wonder I don't remember the history, I wasn't even there.
If you weren't there, you could not have been doing your job properly. :roll:
Perhaps that's why he has been put out to grass as a mod?
"The green green grass of moderation". I think that it will need tinkering before it's a hit but then what do I know, i'm an idiot.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I don't share squabbles with those who don't need to know.
In which case, don't allude to them. Play the ball, not the man.Please don't go looking for agendas where there are none.
This seems to be exactly what you have done withThere's history between you and I and in light of your latest contribution, I'll leave you to the silly games.
You seem to see a motive that I, for one, cannot.
Because you're not party to the previous which from checking turns out to be a different mod with a similar name. I'm big enough to tender my apologies for confusing him with someone else.
Time to move on.
Time to edit the signature then? The mod in question is no longer here.
Are you going to directly tender the apology directly instead of this ^ sideways fashion?
I do not purport to your view of the immigrants. First of all, they want to keep their heads down and any offence may compromise their position.
I know a number of Poles for example that actually turn up to work and actually do the work and rarely whine. All of them are family men and all of them drive like old men. I have never, ever had a argument with driver who was of foreign origin and I first started commuting by bike (1988). I am of foreign origin. Funny that.
In the list of newspaper articles I gave way back of cases of cyclists getting killed on the roads, none of the perpetrators were foreign.
According to the ONS:
"91.0 per cent of the usual resident population identified with at least one UK national identity (English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish, and British) in 2011."
So 9% of the population minus 1.1m other whites (European, American) leaving a very arbitrary 7.3% of the population that is responsible for the attitude on the roads?!
An apology by way of PM was sent. You again make an assumption. Again you make out I've accused all immigrants of being discourteous drivers. Show me where I've said that and I might take you seriously.
Anyone can be selective in how they present their supporting evidence from the media. A sample of a few cases is not representative of the whole.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13466112.Polish_lorry_driver_jailed_for_five_years_for_causing_death_by_dangerous_driving_on_A34/
Didn't take more than 30 seconds to find an example of a driver from the continent being responsible for death by dangerous driving.
As it is, you're merely diverting this away from your original idiotic suggestion.
I bid you good day.
At no point in these proceedings have you meandered ?!
You may not agree with me but I have the right to say it. At the heart of my argument is a concern for cyclists (I won't argue with anyone who may point out that there is a part of it that has a bit of self interest).
At no point have you acknowledged the majority opinion that the law and the police do not protect the average cyclist either by non-enforcement, lenient sentencing or bias towards the car driver.
Some of that is by default: the lack of witnesses, extenuating circumstances - all of which I cannot argue with but a lot of it is by design: "it was just an accident..." etc etc.
I don't think we are paranoid. If we were, we would not go out on our bikes.
As soon as someone starts being personal, then it is evidence that they are loosing the argument.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Its a bit difficult to prove, but I'll ask anyway. On what basis do you feel that sentencing and enforcement of poor driving being too lenient is a view held by the majority?
Do you mean the majority of people here?0 -
Its a bit difficult to prove, but I'll ask anyway. On what basis do you feel that sentencing and enforcement of poor driving being too lenient is a view held by the majority?
Do you mean the majority of people here?
Of the one's who have commented on here. If my supposition is true, then of course there is a bias.
Take Bin lorry man in Glasgow. Lying about his medical history and ends up killing 6 people. They should be throwing the book at him.
Van driver in Reading, killing one cyclist and severely injuring another on a perfectly clear day on a straight stretch of road. No custodial sentence.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Anyone directly or indirectly affected will have that view.Its a bit difficult to prove, but I'll ask anyway. On what basis do you feel that sentencing and enforcement of poor driving being too lenient is a view held by the majority?
Do you mean the majority of people here?
The others don't bother looking past their TV, never mind considering others.
That changes when they are affected, then they start the shouting.
I would prefer all incidents to be treated the same whether the injuries are caused by a faulty scaffolding, bad surgery, or a car. None of those will be intentional, they can all have the same outcome, they can all be prevented, and one of the tools to ensure that they are not repeated is the threat of prosecution and the sentencing that goes with it.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0
