Race vs endurance bikes? I have some unanswered questions..?
CyclingPiper
Posts: 14
I've been itching to try out a criterium, and apparently a racing bike is better for that stuff. But what exactly makes a race bike good for racing? You have to hold your line and it's bad manners weaving around people, so what's the point of tight, twitchy handling?
Aside from wanting to try a time trial or criterium and put my body through a some pain, I want to do some long scenic highway rides through the mountains. Would a bike with a racing geometry, like the Specialized Allez with it's aggressive rider position, end up unpleasant or uncomfortable for long scenic mountain climbs? I plan on putting miles on the bike.
I've read some descriptions of endurance bikes and the geometry sounds a lot like touring bikes, but with STI shifters and lighter frames (instead of brifters and steel on a touring bike). And I am getting a touring bike soon enough, and a touring bike is known for comfort.
Can anyone shed light on these questions? I'm kind of torn between a race and endurance bike. I want to dabble in racing but I want a bike I'll love to ride into the mountains on my days off. And I'm working a dead-end college job and don't have money to throw at every pretty bike I see. Since I'm for sure getting a touring bike and they're known for speed and comfort over long distance, would I be best off avoid the endurance bike (a bike that to me seems like a light version of a touring bike), and going for a racing bike?
Aside from wanting to try a time trial or criterium and put my body through a some pain, I want to do some long scenic highway rides through the mountains. Would a bike with a racing geometry, like the Specialized Allez with it's aggressive rider position, end up unpleasant or uncomfortable for long scenic mountain climbs? I plan on putting miles on the bike.
I've read some descriptions of endurance bikes and the geometry sounds a lot like touring bikes, but with STI shifters and lighter frames (instead of brifters and steel on a touring bike). And I am getting a touring bike soon enough, and a touring bike is known for comfort.
Can anyone shed light on these questions? I'm kind of torn between a race and endurance bike. I want to dabble in racing but I want a bike I'll love to ride into the mountains on my days off. And I'm working a dead-end college job and don't have money to throw at every pretty bike I see. Since I'm for sure getting a touring bike and they're known for speed and comfort over long distance, would I be best off avoid the endurance bike (a bike that to me seems like a light version of a touring bike), and going for a racing bike?
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Comments
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The Allez is an entry level bike aimed more at the sportive or casual rider and not a race bike.
What you ride depends on you. How supple are you? How fit? What kind of rides are you mostly going to be doing? A full on race bike is perfectly capable of being ridden for 100 miles plus in relative comfort provided you are supple enough for it. It's also more than capable of going up hills all day long. The rider is the limiting factor. If you're not supple or just don't fancy being bent over for long periods, go for the sportive type geometry.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
Broadly, with some exceptions, there isn't a massive difference. If you compare the geo of a synapse against an r5, as an example, there isn't a great deal of difference. Endurance bikes tend to have slightly longer head tubes and slightly more relaxed angles, which both makes the bike a bit less flightly handling wise and means you have less drop on the front end so would require less spacers if you weren't in a lower position (a good thing as lots of spacers can reduce stiffness at the front). But the difference isn't huge. Some of the newer endurance bikes have started to have smoothing tech built in (spesh roubaix, bianchi) which is supposed to be effective but I've never tried so can't comment.
If you know your stack and reach requirements then you can compare the slight differences in geo across the bikes.0 -
I've been itching to try out a criterium, and apparently a racing bike is better for that stuff. But what exactly makes a race bike good for racing? You have to hold your line and it's bad manners weaving around people, so what's the point of tight, twitchy handling?
Aside from wanting to try a time trial or criterium and put my body through a some pain, I want to do some long scenic highway rides through the mountains. Would a bike with a racing geometry, like the Specialized Allez with it's aggressive rider position, end up unpleasant or uncomfortable for long scenic mountain climbs? I plan on putting miles on the bike.
I've read some descriptions of endurance bikes and the geometry sounds a lot like touring bikes, but with STI shifters and lighter frames (instead of brifters and steel on a touring bike). And I am getting a touring bike soon enough, and a touring bike is known for comfort.
Can anyone shed light on these questions? I'm kind of torn between a race and endurance bike. I want to dabble in racing but I want a bike I'll love to ride into the mountains on my days off. And I'm working a dead-end college job and don't have money to throw at every pretty bike I see. Since I'm for sure getting a touring bike and they're known for speed and comfort over long distance, would I be best off avoid the endurance bike (a bike that to me seems like a light version of a touring bike), and going for a racing bike?
Many years ago, before 'sportive' bikes were invented, people used to have a race bike. They raced on it, trained on it and rode long distances on it. Some even went touring on them. I know cos I was one of them.
If you want to race, get a race bike. Apart from heavy touring, it will serve you well for everything.
TBH I just don't get sportive bikes. Waste of time.0 -
The Allez is an entry level bike aimed more at the sportive or casual rider and not a race bike.
Sorry, that's nonsense. Allez geometry is identical to the Tarmac. Ignore the marketing bull5hit - if a bike has drop bars, you can race it.0 -
The Allez is an entry level bike aimed more at the sportive or casual rider and not a race bike.
Sorry, that's nonsense. Allez geometry is identical to the Tarmac. Ignore the marketing bull5hit - if a bike has drop bars, you can race it.
It was meant in terms of what is intended to be a pukka focused race bike. An Allez simply isn't even if it has got drop handlebars. Yes, you can race on it, but you could race on a hybrid if you were daft enough.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
The Allez is an entry level bike aimed more at the sportive or casual rider and not a race bike.
Sorry, that's nonsense. Allez geometry is identical to the Tarmac. Ignore the marketing bull5hit - if a bike has drop bars, you can race it.
It was meant in terms of what is intended to be a pukka focused race bike. An Allez simply isn't even if it has got drop handlebars. Yes, you can race on it, but you could race on a hybrid if you were daft enough.
Sorry, you are just plain wrong. Can you explain to me why the Allez is not a race bike? The Allez was Spec's only race bike until the Tarmac came along.0 -
The Allez is an entry level bike aimed more at the sportive or casual rider and not a race bike.
Sorry, that's nonsense. Allez geometry is identical to the Tarmac. Ignore the marketing bull5hit - if a bike has drop bars, you can race it.
It was meant in terms of what is intended to be a pukka focused race bike. An Allez simply isn't even if it has got drop handlebars. Yes, you can race on it, but you could race on a hybrid if you were daft enough.
Sorry, you are just plain wrong. Can you explain to me why the Allez is not a race bike? The Allez was Spec's only race bike until the Tarmac came along.
This isn't an argument; it is a difference of opinion on what is a race bike. You're saying anything with drop handlebars is a race bike. I'm saying a race bike is one with a focused front end rather than anything with drop handlebars. From the Allez bikes I've worked on, I don't believe the front end is focused enough to be considered (by me) a pukka race bike. You clearly think differently and that is your freedom to do so.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
Focused front end? WTF does that mean? Unless you think that the Tarmac is not a 'pukka' race bike, then it follows that the Allez must also be 'pukka'. The geo is the same and the only difference will be the frame material. Unless you think that aluminium bikes are somehow not 'pukka' race bikes.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion - but yours is clearly not based on any logic or fact.0 -
The Allez is an entry level bike aimed more at the sportive or casual rider and not a race bike.
Sorry, that's nonsense. Allez geometry is identical to the Tarmac. Ignore the marketing bull5hit - if a bike has drop bars, you can race it.
It was meant in terms of what is intended to be a pukka focused race bike. An Allez simply isn't even if it has got drop handlebars. Yes, you can race on it, but you could race on a hybrid if you were daft enough.
Specialized seem to think their Allez is a race bike, you need to send them feedback to show them the error of their ways:
http://www.specialized.com/gb/gb/bikes/road/allez0 -
gosh I should tell my team mate who won 4 times at hillingdon this season that his allez is no good and is holding him back as its not a "pukka" race bike.
fella keep drinking the kool-aid the bike industry needs you.0 -
you mean people rock up at start lines only to sneer at lesser breeds of bikes..?
wtf..
I almost incline to believe someone is replying to a thread who has never actually raced in his life before..
may be wrong..if so what a t wat0 -
gosh I should tell my team mate who won 4 times at hillingdon this season that his allez is no good and is holding him back as its not a "pukka" race bike.
fella keep drinking the kool-aid the bike industry needs you.
Steady.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
As you may have gathered you can pretty much do anything on your Allez, I take mine off road from time to time.
It's what's above the bike that counts the most. We have riders on our chain gang on MTBs and CX bikes and they're not slow.0 -
Er, if i could perhaps inject a gentle measure of sanity to the debate, the Allez comes in different geometries depending on how far up the range you go.
The top of the line model in the largest size gives 604mm of stack for 405mm of reach:
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/allez/allez-dsw-sprint-x1-expert#geometry
Whereas the bottom of the line Claris model gives 632mm of stack for 401mm of reach:
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/allez/allez-e5#geometry
The Claris model most definitely, as spec, does not give race geometry- that's a cold hard fact. I've just ordered a new giant TCR and for sake of comparison the largest model has 595mm of stack for 412mm of reach - that's going to give you a lower, longer position - racier than either of the Allez models.
Your mate dave's uncle might have won the tour riding an Allez but the fact something is possible does not make it ideally suited. To use an Allez as a race bike, you either need to get one a couple of sizes down from what you'd usually get and use a long stem, or accept an aerodynamically compromised position.
This is a subject close to my heart as I'm big but relatively short legged, so for me riding an endurance geometry bike feels a bit like riding a shopper with a basket on the front.0 -
You are comparing the DSW Sprint Allez with the (let's call it) 'original' frameset. Those are two different frame sets anyway, and visually very different. Either way, it doesn't alter the point that the Allez is eminently capable of being a race bike, regardless of whatever you think 'race geometry' is.
Riders win - bikes don't.0 -
My experience us that my Volagi (endurance design - designed by guys that race double centuries) is every bit as quick as my Foil Team Issue - both with me on them. I prefer the Volagi not least of all because of the disc brakes.
ETA - I think the tyres I have fitted make a bigger difference.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
If you choose to completely ignore half of what I wrote in order to reinforce your existing opinion then that is your prerogative, I've given you cold hard facts and numbers - the spec allez bike is not race geometry - compared to the example of a Giant TCR it is more upright and shorter. This is because the Allez is mainly sold as a cheap entry level bike, it is designed to be comfortable for newcomers to the sport who are unlikely to be as flexible as racers. The DSW Sprint bike is closer to a pure race geometry, but still more upright than the TCR.You are comparing the DSW Sprint Allez with the (let's call it) 'original' frameset. Those are two different frame sets anyway, and visually very different. Either way, it doesn't alter the point that the Allez is eminently capable of being a race bike, regardless of whatever you think 'race geometry' is.
Riders win - bikes don't.
None of this is to say that you can't race on an Allez, but if I, at 6ft 4 walk into a shop and ask them to sell me an Allez, they'll probably recommend me the 61cm model. Lars Boom is 6ft3 and he rides a 56cm Tarmac, with a stem that is 3cm longer than the standard 10cm supplied at that size:
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/pro-bike-lars-booms-specialized-s-works-tarmac-43649/
The point being, because the geometry of the Tarmac/Allez is not actually race oriented, he has to ride an unusually small bike with an unusually long stem (and seat post). He can't achieve his race fit position on the 61cm frame that he might have bought as an amateur coming into the sport, because the front is too high.
Of course, the average amateur racer isn't as flexible as Lars Boom (or any other pro) but they still aspire to a lower, more aerodynamic position because it is quicker!0 -
If you choose to completely ignore half of what I wrote in order to reinforce your existing opinion then that is your prerogative, I've given you cold hard facts and numbers - the spec allez bike is not race geometry - compared to the example of a Giant TCR it is more upright and shorter.
I'm focusing on the bits I don't agree with.
There is no such thing as a typical 'race geometry' anyway - because it differs between manufacturers, as you have inadvertently highlighted. So comparing the Allez geometry to a TCR and then claiming that one isn't race geometry while the other is, is slightly silly.0 -
Yeah, or it would be, if Giant didn't also make the Defy which has practically identical geometry (in terms of stack and reach) to the Allez, and which happens to be their endurance/sportive model.There is no such thing as a typical 'race geometry' anyway - because it differs between manufacturers, as you have inadvertently highlighted. So comparing the Allez geometry to a TCR and then claiming that one isn't race geometry while the other is, is slightly silly.
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Getting back on track; Has nobody else noticed that the OP hasn't bothered responding to any of this? This is the second thread I'm aware of where they've started a potentially contentious subject only to disappear.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0
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Yeah, or it would be, if Giant didn't also make the Defy which has practically identical geometry (in terms of stack and reach) to the Allez, and which happens to be their endurance/sportive model.There is no such thing as a typical 'race geometry' anyway - because it differs between manufacturers, as you have inadvertently highlighted. So comparing the Allez geometry to a TCR and then claiming that one isn't race geometry while the other is, is slightly silly.
That is funny now you mention it, as I have seen a few Defys in local/regional crits and circuits over the years, along with a few Roubaixs, Secteurs, Synapses and lots of other apparently 'unsuitable' bikes - not many, I grant you, but enough for me to realise that the marketing definitions and geometry charts mean fk-all in real life. Like someone said earlier, it is possible to achieve a good racing position on almost any road bike, regardless of whether it has this mythical 'race geometry' or not - which, incidentally, you still haven't been able to actually define.
Maybe you should stick to reading the brochures, while the rest of us get on with the racing
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Getting back on track; Has nobody else noticed that the OP hasn't bothered responding to any of this? This is the second thread I'm aware of where they've started a potentially contentious subject only to disappear.
Any subject is potentially contentious depending on how people respond, as someone who has posted a topic with a genuine question which has been taken off track I was not going to waste my time responding to responses that aren't helpful - this maybe the case with the op.
In answer to the Op - generally race focussed bikes have a longer reach to a particular stack, the long and low approach. This can result in a greater drop to the bars and can be unsuitable for people who have long legs and short arms/torso.
The endurance bike have a shorter reach to a particular stack. This bike fits people with short arms /torso very well. However, the endurance v race bike is sometimes marketing - the himod synapse is a race bike with an endurance geometry and bikes don't have two discrete stack/reach ratio to reflect the two types of geometry - rather they veer from the bike such as the Storcks ( v long reach for a particular stack) to bikes such as the Synapse(short reach for a particular stack):
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A race bike in modern terms has all the aero aids and design tricks that endurance bike do not fully exploit. Both types of bike have to fit the rider and both can be raced or not.
For critical race a modern race bike with all the trick will give a competitive rider the edge but is you are not competitive then have a bike with all the tricks won't change anything.
In Sundays race in Denmark no bike would have helped me. I ride an old steel frame and there were far to many ex pro's arable of 300+ watts for 4 hrs or more. I don't even come close.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Your mate dave's uncle might have won the tour riding an Allez but the fact something is possible does not make it ideally suited. To use an Allez as a race bike, you either need to get one a couple of sizes down from what you'd usually get and use a long stem, or accept an aerodynamically compromised position.
The stack to reach ratio of a UK allez in a 54cm is 1.41, a Tarmac is 1.4 (5mm less stack, otherwise no material difference in geometry).
By contrast a medium Giant TCR (which is relatively big for a medium/54) is 1.43, a medium defy is 1.5.
The allez, at least as far as geometry is concerned, is absolutely a 'race' bike in the normally used sense of the word. Yes it is often sold to people who would be better suited to a sportive bike (bikes with a stack to reach ratio of 1.5+ in a medium/54cm) but that's not to say they're no good for racing on. I know a few guys who use Allez, very effectively as crit bikes.0 -
Your mate dave's uncle might have won the tour riding an Allez but the fact something is possible does not make it ideally suited. To use an Allez as a race bike, you either need to get one a couple of sizes down from what you'd usually get and use a long stem, or accept an aerodynamically compromised position.
The stack to reach ratio of a UK allez in a 54cm is 1.41, a Tarmac is 1.4 (5mm less stack, otherwise no material difference in geometry).
By contrast a medium Giant TCR (which is relatively big for a medium/54) is 1.43, a medium defy is 1.5.
The allez, at least as far as geometry is concerned, is absolutely a 'race' bike in the normally used sense of the word. Yes it is often sold to people who would be better suited to a sportive bike (bikes with a stack to reach ratio of 1.5+ in a medium/54cm) but that's not to say they're no good for racing on. I know a few guys who use Allez, very effectively as crit bikes.
He nor I have said they're no good for racing on.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
The Allez is an entry level bike aimed more at the sportive or casual rider and not a race bike.
I thought the inference was pretty clear, tbh....0 -
Getting back on track; Has nobody else noticed that the OP hasn't bothered responding to any of this? This is the second thread I'm aware of where they've started a potentially contentious subject only to disappear.
Standard fair on BR forum these days. It's creative trolling yet people still post thinking its a real thread. It's quite amusing ;-)
[edit - with the exception of the Asian carbon crew which is either spamming or something else]0 -
Exactly - we're all different shapes, and we all work slightly differently, and tactics are a part of it - if you're on a long breakaway then a low aero position is more important than if you're a bunch sprinter, following wheels most of the race - all I know is that I used to have a bike with very similar geometry to the 61cm Allez, and it felt much too upright, and far less nimble than my other bike - a 7ft tall rider or quite simply more leggy rider might have found it perfect.He nor I have said they're no good for racing on.
Quite honestly, I struggle to see why some posters are so offended by the notion that the Allez might not be aimed at racing. If you have one/race one good for you, personally I would choose something more aggressive (or customize the fit of an allez in order to accomodate my needs, by getting a smaller bike than normal and longer stem).0 -
Quite honestly, I struggle to see why some posters are so offended by the notion that the Allez might not be aimed at racing.
Possibly because that assertion is not correct? Call me picky n all that....0 -
Right, because anything with drop bars can be raced right?
Quite honestly, I struggle to see why some posters are so offended by the notion that the Allez might not be aimed at racing.
Possibly because that assertion is not correct? Call me picky n all that....
See how you get on with that at your next criterium.
Still, for what the OP has actually asked, I think the Allez would be a perfectly reasonable choice as a starter road bike that he'll be comfy riding miles on while still being capable of doing the odd race/TT - I just think that in time (same as philthy3) he'll probably want something more aggressive (or a dedicated TT bike if that ends up being his bag). That was my experience.0
