Power meters??
andrewthomas197
Posts: 117
Garmin Vector 2 or PowerTap P1?
Thoughts please and experiences.
Thanks
Thoughts please and experiences.
Thanks
0
Comments
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I've got vector, has since version 1. A fair number of people, myself included, are struggling with since a firmware update in May. I would struggle to recommend, happy to discuss that further but also take a look at the garmin vector support forums.
If you want easiest portability, probably pedals. Otherwise power2max with the recent price drop is hard to look past.0 -
Went through the decision process with powermeters last year and considered just about everything that is out there including the 4iiii Precision, which has had a somewhat less than auspicious entry into the market. Have a read of DC Rainmakers reviews, but also bear in mind how up to date they are with the product.
I eventually went for the Power2max type S over a Rotor Lt R. Now the Power2max prices have been reduced they're even better value and simple to fit to existing cranks or you can buy as part of crankset. Of course, if you want to switch your power meter between bikes, it's less hassle to simply switch a wheel than the crankset. But isn't half the joy of road bikes fettling with them?I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
I used a Powertap in various guises since 2008 but got a quarq elsa earlier this year, much happier with that. However, if I was looking now id be going for the Powertap pedals.
Check out DC Rainmaker for reviews (on any gadget whatsoever to do with cycling!!)Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
I had exactly the same decision to make and went for vector 2 pedals bought from www.bike24.com for a fraction of the UK price.
The reason I went for Vector was for the following reasons:
1) They look better
2) Better battery life is much longer.
3) You can replace the shells if you scratch them in a crash which was the most important factor for me as I hate scuffed pedals
One thing to bear in mind is how much clearance you have when in top gear between your chain and the pedal as the Vectors need 5mm whereas the P1's don't have any restrictions. I have a Dura-Ace setup on one of my bikes and had to use the washers which come with the Vectors in order to get them setup so it didn't touch the chain.
Another advantage of the P1 is that they are easier to swap between bikes and install as you don't need a torque wrench but I'm not going to be swapping them too frequently so not a major issue for me as the Vectors are simple as well.0 -
I thought the new Vectors didn't really need torquing and it was just a recommendation? Go with your budget really. The Vectors look tidier, the battery pod under the pedal on the P1 would concern me for pedal strikes, but I've nothing to base that on.0
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I thought the new Vectors didn't really need torquing and it was just a recommendation? Go with your budget really. The Vectors look tidier, the battery pod under the pedal on the P1 would concern me for pedal strikes, but I've nothing to base that on.
Manual states 34 to 40 newton meters and they come with a crow foot adapter to use with a torque wrench.0 -
The reason I went for Vector was for the following reasons:
1) They look better
Do you think?? :shock:
I am still deciding which PM to go for and the only one i have ruled out is the Vector due to the pods which i think look hideous.
I would go for the P1s. I have narrowed my own PM search down to the Stages (if the battery issues are sorted at last) and the P1s. TBH i was hoping that a load of new powermeters would be announced at Eurobike but so far its been pretty disappointing.0 -
Having experienced reliability issues with Powertap hub meters I wouldn't touch a first generation powertap power meter with a barge pole.0
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Vectors are probably one of the ugliest power meters on the market, what with that pod thing sticking out. Whereas the likes of Stages and powertap are almost invisible.0
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Having experienced reliability issues with Powertap hub meters I wouldn't touch a first generation powertap power meter with a barge pole.
I've had a powertap hub for a few years and it's been great. Very reliable.
What about the power2Max ones ?0 -
" I have narrowed my own PM search down to the Stages (if the battery issues are sorted at last) and the P1s.
Stages have not sorted the battery/rain issue, i had two of them with issues, I am returning mine and will give the P1s a go.0 -
Power2max is the system that most interests me, prices are pretty reasonable for a 2 sided system although interchangeability isn't great.0
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" I have narrowed my own PM search down to the Stages (if the battery issues are sorted at last) and the P1s.
Stages have not sorted the battery/rain issue, i had two of them with issues, I am returning mine and will give the P1s a go.
Looks like they may have now - they have redesigned the battery cover & are starting to ship the new design imminently.0 -
" I have narrowed my own PM search down to the Stages (if the battery issues are sorted at last) and the P1s.
Stages have not sorted the battery/rain issue, i had two of them with issues, I am returning mine and will give the P1s a go.
Looks like they may have now - they have redesigned the battery cover & are starting to ship the new design imminently.
Maybe they have solved it then. Even though they told me that any issues with battery draining issues are due to user error. Given how many people have had this problem i doubt it. I would give it a year or two to see if they have indeed solved the issue. But if i was buying one now, i'd rather pay slightly more and get something that just works. I know a few people with Power2max and they like it, i had a power tap wheelset before and it worked fine.
Obviously there isn't much experience with P1s yet but so far it looks good.0 -
Power2max is the system that most interests me, prices are pretty reasonable for a 2 sided system although interchangeability isn't great.
Power2max isn't a 2 sided system. It's one sided with estimated left side power. But, being one sided isn't a problem for the majority of riders. Knowing your power for individual sides is a bit unnecessary. This from DC Rainmakers site:
Estimated Left/Right Power: This became all the rage just prior to true left/right units coming out, starting with the SRAM/Quarq RED unit offering left/right power. That platform works by essentially splitting your crank in half and assuming that any power recorded while pulling up is actually coming from the left side, whereas pushing down is from the right side. Thus, an estimation. It’s good, but not perfect. Note that even with true left/right power (below), there’s actually very little in the scientific community around what to do with the data. While you may think that perfect balance would be ideal – that hasn’t been established. And some that have looked into it have found that trying to achieve balance actually lowers your overall output. The only thing folks agree on is that measuring left/right power can be useful for those recovering from single-leg injury. Power2Max and all SRAM/Quarq models currently on the market use this method.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
I have 3x Power2Max classic PM's and they've been fantastic. With the price drop, there's nothing out there that competes.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0
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Got Vectors and recently upgraded from v1 to v2. Have to say I also had problems with the v1 version but since the upgrade they have been faultless and the black pods look a lot better than the silver. Biggest plus for me with the Vectors is the pedal dynamics Garmin offers with its units, really does help to work on pedal stroke and efficiency data as well as power.
Seen the full Vector 2 set online for around £850 so deals to be had.0 -
I have 3x Power2Max classic PM's and they've been fantastic. With the price drop, there's nothing out there that competes.
Even without the recent price drop I think they were the best on the market. In fact it was your recommendation that got me to switch from the Rotor LT-R to a Power2max Type S (110bcd and Rotor Aero Q rings so Classic won't fit without cutting the Q ring) and can't say there has ever been a problem.
Battery life is great as it goes to sleep and only activates when the pedals turn, been out in heavy rain with no water ingress, and is less prone to damage in the event of a crash.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
Power2max is the system that most interests me, prices are pretty reasonable for a 2 sided system although interchangeability isn't great.
Power2max isn't a 2 sided system. It's one sided with estimated left side power. But, being one sided isn't a problem for the majority of riders. Knowing your power for individual sides is a bit unnecessary. This from DC Rainmakers site:
Estimated Left/Right Power: This became all the rage just prior to true left/right units coming out, starting with the SRAM/Quarq RED unit offering left/right power. That platform works by essentially splitting your crank in half and assuming that any power recorded while pulling up is actually coming from the left side, whereas pushing down is from the right side. Thus, an estimation. It’s good, but not perfect. Note that even with true left/right power (below), there’s actually very little in the scientific community around what to do with the data. While you may think that perfect balance would be ideal – that hasn’t been established. And some that have looked into it have found that trying to achieve balance actually lowers your overall output. The only thing folks agree on is that measuring left/right power can be useful for those recovering from single-leg injury. Power2Max and all SRAM/Quarq models currently on the market use this method.
I know what you mean but I think this is misleading. Power2max isn't one side, it measures the whole of the pedalling cycle around the crank (force from both pedals). How it calculate the split between left and right is estimated by pedal position. That's different from a true one sided meter like stages that only measures half the pedalling cycle and doubles it.0 -
Power2max is the system that most interests me, prices are pretty reasonable for a 2 sided system although interchangeability isn't great.
Power2max isn't a 2 sided system. It's one sided with estimated left side power. But, being one sided isn't a problem for the majority of riders. Knowing your power for individual sides is a bit unnecessary. This from DC Rainmakers site:
Estimated Left/Right Power: This became all the rage just prior to true left/right units coming out, starting with the SRAM/Quarq RED unit offering left/right power. That platform works by essentially splitting your crank in half and assuming that any power recorded while pulling up is actually coming from the left side, whereas pushing down is from the right side. Thus, an estimation. It’s good, but not perfect. Note that even with true left/right power (below), there’s actually very little in the scientific community around what to do with the data. While you may think that perfect balance would be ideal – that hasn’t been established. And some that have looked into it have found that trying to achieve balance actually lowers your overall output. The only thing folks agree on is that measuring left/right power can be useful for those recovering from single-leg injury. Power2Max and all SRAM/Quarq models currently on the market use this method.
I know what you mean but I think this is misleading. Power2max isn't one side, it measures the whole of the pedalling cycle around the crank (force from both pedals). How it calculate the split between left and right is estimated by pedal position. That's different from a true one sided meter like stages that only measures half the pedalling cycle and doubles it.
We'll have to agree to disagree. It assumes that the upstroke on the drive side is being driven solely by downward pressure on the non-drive side when that isn't necessarily so. I have a L/R balance calculation difference of anything from 8 watts to 2 watts from day to day. That by definition is an estimation not an accurate reading, unless you're doing one leg drills to be able to say the reading is solely from the non-drive side leg. But, I still say there is no need for 2 sided measurement unless as DC Rainmaker suggests, you're recovering from a non-drive side leg injury and want to know how the rate of recovery is going. Single side Power2max are good enough for Movistar, Etixx, Bardiani and Bora Argon 18 accepting it all probably gets thrown at them rather than bought.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
Power2max is the system that most interests me, prices are pretty reasonable for a 2 sided system although interchangeability isn't great.
Power2max isn't a 2 sided system. It's one sided with estimated left side power. But, being one sided isn't a problem for the majority of riders. Knowing your power for individual sides is a bit unnecessary. This from DC Rainmakers site:
Estimated Left/Right Power: This became all the rage just prior to true left/right units coming out, starting with the SRAM/Quarq RED unit offering left/right power. That platform works by essentially splitting your crank in half and assuming that any power recorded while pulling up is actually coming from the left side, whereas pushing down is from the right side. Thus, an estimation. It’s good, but not perfect. Note that even with true left/right power (below), there’s actually very little in the scientific community around what to do with the data. While you may think that perfect balance would be ideal – that hasn’t been established. And some that have looked into it have found that trying to achieve balance actually lowers your overall output. The only thing folks agree on is that measuring left/right power can be useful for those recovering from single-leg injury. Power2Max and all SRAM/Quarq models currently on the market use this method.
I know what you mean but I think this is misleading. Power2max isn't one side, it measures the whole of the pedalling cycle around the crank (force from both pedals). How it calculate the split between left and right is estimated by pedal position. That's different from a true one sided meter like stages that only measures half the pedalling cycle and doubles it.
We'll have to agree to disagree. It assumes that the upstroke on the drive side is being driven solely by downward pressure on the non-drive side when that isn't necessarily so. I have a L/R balance calculation difference of anything from 8 watts to 2 watts from day to day. That by definition is an estimation not an accurate reading, unless you're doing one leg drills to be able to say the reading is solely from the non-drive side leg. But, I still say there is no need for 2 sided measurement unless as DC Rainmaker suggests, you're recovering from a non-drive side leg injury and want to know how the rate of recovery is going. Single side Power2max are good enough for Movistar, Etixx, Bardiani and Bora Argon 18 accepting it all probably gets thrown at them rather than bought.
Crank based power meters (strain gauges in the spider) aren't 'one sided'. Left/right balance IS estimated, but the power measurement is not ala Stages where left side is measured and doubled. The only estimate with P2M, SRM, Quarq, etc. is L/R balance.More problems but still living....0 -
Power2 max is fantastic. got 2 and they just work and are ultra reliable. so many friends have bought vectors and have had rubbish from them, just when they wanted to be able to train properly with them.
heartily reccomend p2max.0 -
Power2 max is fantastic. got 2 and they just work and are ultra reliable. so many friends have bought vectors and have had rubbish from them, just when they wanted to be able to train properly with them.
heartily reccomend p2max.
I have 3 various P2M classic type pm's, and not one has ever had a problem. The oldest is about 2 1/2 years old now. All I ever do is change the battery about every six months. They are solidly built with no vulnerable parts, and as others have said - they just work.
I used to have powertap hubs but I got fed up with the regular failures and having to return them for repair under warranty.
I don't understand why people would even consider something that has suffered from well documented problems. and then try to justify the purchase by saying it will be ok because it will be repaired under warranty if there is a problem. What happens if it goes wrong out of warranty - your budget power meter is no longer cheap then. Buy something that has a reliable reputation and it will save you a lot of anguish (and money) in the long term.0 -
i am also weighing up p2max vs p1.
is the spacing on 11 speed & 10 speed shimano rings the same? Would front mech limits need to be adjusted moving between shimano 10 speed ultegra chainset, 11 speed ultegra - and a praxis ringed p2m?
the easy and fuss-lessness of the p1 attract me.0 -
i am also weighing up p2max vs p1.
is the spacing on 11 speed & 10 speed shimano rings the same? Would front mech limits need to be adjusted moving between shimano 10 speed ultegra chainset, 11 speed ultegra - and a praxis ringed p2m?
the easy and fuss-lessness of the p1 attract me.
Always worked fine for me swapping between 10 and 11 speed.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
i am also weighing up p2max vs p1.
is the spacing on 11 speed & 10 speed shimano rings the same? Would front mech limits need to be adjusted moving between shimano 10 speed ultegra chainset, 11 speed ultegra - and a praxis ringed p2m?
the easy and fuss-lessness of the p1 attract me.
Always worked fine for me swapping between 10 and 11 speed.
rly? i would have expected that everytime chains were swapped the front mech needed to be fussed over, if this is not the case then the p2m gained a little favour with me, as i *know* that installing/swapping the p1 would be a breeze - but was unsure of the p2m, especially as i am always a little unsure about front mech adjustments.0 -
Personally love my Quarq Riken. Rides that have killed my friend's Stages and it still goes strong. Days where I'm absolutely sodden, soaked to the bone, Riken is top notch.0
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I got Vector (s) at the end of last year from rose bikes and have been impressed. Sure you have to be careful when installing the pods, but after multiple swaps haven't broken anything (cue catastrophe next time I swap them over!!) Agree the new pods look better black. Also would have preferred to keep using shimano cleats, the look ones seem to wear quicker.
I've had consistant readings and have been trouble free. I had a low battery warning appear on the 800 (after about 6 months of use).
As mentioned above, with the power2max price drops and the new powertap pedals coming out you really are spoilt for choice.if it ain't rainin.....it ain't trainin
Stick your 'rules' up your a%se0 -
I'm a vector owner, they've been useless for the last four months. After four months of noise Garmin have acknowledged the issue but have no targeted resolution date, https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?321030-Vector-3-50-Firmware-Status-Update
The link above is their official update on the problem. I wouldn't advise buying into that system. Personally I've a power2max type s on order which arrives next week. I've had two events this year without a working power meter and I'm going for something that is proven as reliable.0 -
Wow Stueys, that is bad! Sorry to hear the ballache you've had. Just read the link, had no idea there was an issue like this. Hen again didn't know there was a firmware update, just as well by the looks of things! I know it's probably too late and you've had enough of them, but is there a way to reinstall the previous firmware? (Probably tried it, but just a thought)if it ain't rainin.....it ain't trainin
Stick your 'rules' up your a%se0
