More 'no cycling' signs - can we fight this?
rubyhorse2
Posts: 23
bit of background - i've been riding the local area where i live for over 20 years. I've always been respectful of others, opening and closing gates, slowing down or stopping for walkers, horses, etc. a lot of my routes involve footpaths, simply because there are limited bridlepaths these days and the interesting rides tend to involve footpaths.
i have generally not had any issues with walkers etc, can probably count on one hand the arguments i have had over access rights.
Last night i noticed more 'no cycling' signs and several new 'polite warning' signs for cyclists not to use footpaths in the area. Of note it did not mention horseriders...
Anyone else noticed more signs going up and why is there this vendetta against mtbers using the paths. The main argument seems to be damage to the land, i'd love to see some evidence on mtb tyres and to what extent they damage the ground compared to footfall. i'd say its more likely some old ramblers have complained about bikers again.
Seriously winds me up this, are there any groups that are actively fighting for access to routes, the constant downgrading of bridlepaths to footpaths, etc.
i have generally not had any issues with walkers etc, can probably count on one hand the arguments i have had over access rights.
Last night i noticed more 'no cycling' signs and several new 'polite warning' signs for cyclists not to use footpaths in the area. Of note it did not mention horseriders...
Anyone else noticed more signs going up and why is there this vendetta against mtbers using the paths. The main argument seems to be damage to the land, i'd love to see some evidence on mtb tyres and to what extent they damage the ground compared to footfall. i'd say its more likely some old ramblers have complained about bikers again.
Seriously winds me up this, are there any groups that are actively fighting for access to routes, the constant downgrading of bridlepaths to footpaths, etc.
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The signs have no legal effect, if its a footpath (or not a public right of way at all) you don't have a right to use it on a bike and the landowner can make a claim agaisnt you, if its a bridleway you can use a bike.Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0
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whats the deal with public footpaths then, if we are caught cycling on them what can be done?
The routes i take are either moorland paths or designated paths through woods etc.
whats everyone else view on footpaths, do you ride them?0 -
I've seen the reverse where I am: a sign prohibiting horses / riders on a stretch of path but no specific mention of bicycles.
Doesn't seem to have had much effect, based on observing the occasional pile of horse dung...0 -
Rookie is correct, I think there was a really old thread somewhere on this where I referenced all the specific acts and rules..
A footpath adjacent to a highway is basically riding on the pavement, a footpath as in a public footpath, is just a right of way which protects the walker from a claim of trespass.
Riding on a public right of way is basically being there without permission. However, The law has potentially changed on this since we last looked at it. ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] though a bit of stretch to use a commercial deterrent to establish a fine in a contract outside of parking.
The rules for areas of special scientific interest, MOD land, railway land and where a local bylaw has been made do change the above, but it general public footpath no cycling signs are pretty hard to enforce.0 -
cheers for the informed replies guys. Was going to start kicking up a fuss over this with some emails to my local council etc but if the signs are merely for information and cant actually be enforced then i'll happily continue to use the paths.
having done a bit of research myself, it seems if you are caught cycling on a countryside footpath then the landowner can fine you for damages only, of which none would really be provable.
so, go and enjoy the countryside, i know i will.0 -
No he can't fine you - I know people don't make much of a point about a fine, penalty or a charge... its all money right. But in law its quite different. Riding your bike on a footpath is like cutting across a field instead of walking on the footpath. He can recover damages for anything you damage and the hypothetical value of the benefit you received.
He could if you are a particularly annoying person and he was the sort to waste money on legal cost for no real benefit - take out an injunction against you - think of it like an ASBO, then life would be rather more costly if you continued to trespass.
Best angle a land owner can try - is an implied contract with a commercial deterrent "fee" for cycling on the footpath. Similar to those used by supermarket ANPR firms to extort money from people who stay more than 2 hours.
see thread I was on about: viewtopic.php?p=15814119#p15814119
There is of course the slight technicality of getting you to stop and give a name and address for him to file his claim. Not something he could use the local plod to help with either.
EDIT - its not the land owner who can sue for trespass, its the person in exclusive possession of the land. This further makes Trespass a tricky route.0 -
Trying to be positive about things, depending on how ,uh of an activist you are you could write a few letters to the council and sugest that the access rights are changed to allow bikes
(I have no idea how possible/likely this is to succeed)We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
You suggested 'ramblers' might have had a hand in the appearance of the signs in your OP, but the 'Ramblers' with a capital R are a good source of information on rights of way. Their website has useful pages on the Basics of rights of way law and even Creating a right of way which could just as easily apply to routes for cycling.Viscount Grand Touring - in bits
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Specialized Camber Comp0 -
Wouldn't work, the rights of way are defined by statute and the council merely selects which one it is, as they have to maintain the surface of a bridleway they won't do that.Trying to be positive about things, depending on how ,uh of an activist you are you could write a few letters to the council and sugest that the access rights are changed to allow bikes
(I have no idea how possible/likely this is to succeed)
diy alluded to Beavis, while I can understand the basis, without some signage indicating what the deterrent would be (how much they wanted to demand) it wouldn't be a deterrent, even then the basis of Beavis (based on other local deterrants) wouldn't apply, to me it would be unconscionable.Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0 -
well did my route again last night and i had to chuckle, one of the styles had 4 'no cycling' signs on it, not one but 4. Someone really doesnt like mountain bikes.
I've decided to let it lie, now i know the laws thanks to you guys i will be happy to point this out to anyone who happens to have a go at me.
one of the other signs i noticed was more of a warning for cyclists not to use footpaths. Went on about maintaining the bridleways and wildlife etc, which i totally agree with but i'd argue that there is not much difference to me cycling on the path and a walker using it. Was purely aimed at cyclists and didnt mention horses which kind of winds me up.0 -
To put the other side now you will be deliberately pi**ing people off now. There may be very good reasons why the paths are footpaths and not bridleways which might be worth finding out
You don't have any right to be there remember.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
The reason cycles aren't allowed on public footpaths is that they are not suitably surfaced or maintained. Cycling, especially in wet conditions will cause far more damage than walking.
Personally I wouldn't ride on footpaths. Walkers already dislike us, damaging their paths will only strengthen that opinion of us.
I get annoyed by walkers on designated mountain bike trails so it works both ways.
Get out the OS map and find a bridleway route and look for wooded hillsides, they will be worth checking for trails. Bridleways can occasionally involve technical and exciting riding. Smiths Coombe on the Quantocks is amazing and that's a bridleway.Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=130702350 -
The reason cycles aren't allowed on public footpaths is that they are not suitably surfaced or maintained. Cycling, especially in wet conditions will cause far more damage than walking.
Personally I wouldn't ride on footpaths. Walkers already dislike us, damaging their paths will only strengthen that opinion of us.
I get annoyed by walkers on designated mountain bike trails so it works both ways.
Get out the OS map and find a bridleway route and look for wooded hillsides, they will be worth checking for trails. Bridleways can occasionally involve technical and exciting riding. Smiths Coombe on the Quantocks is amazing and that's a bridleway.
^This.All the gear, no idea and loving the smell of jealousy in the morning.
Kona Process 134 viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=129946070 -
I've had the pleasure of walkers on bridleways have a moan for riding on them and how I'm damaging the environment. The come back is usually saying it's a shame we all can't enjoy the area in question and pointing out that they probably drove out by car to where they're walking while I rode my bike so who's doing the most damage.Bird Aeris : Trek Remedy 9.9 29er : Trek Procaliber 9.8 SL0
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You never drive to a ride?
Bridleways are maintained by the council.
Personally I have never had any negative comments from walkers. A polite hello as I pass seems to get the same in reply.Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=130702350 -
I've come across bobble hats walking up BKB and YP on holmbury hill. I've told them that its a popular MTB trail and not everyone will come down at a speed that they can stop safely. You'd think it obvious when there are jumps and banks built in. You get abuse about open access blah,blah blah, so clearly they are deliberately trying to disrupt MTBers.
Fortunately they are all old and will soon be dead.
We live on a very small crowded island, we cannot have large areas of the country dedicated to the exclusive access of one type of pursuit, if it can have multi use, I don't see the problem.
Do what you want and be considerate to others and ignore those who think the countryside should be for their exclusive access.
The bit I find funny is the use of this sign to say no cycling
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I've told them that its a popular MTB trail and not everyone will come down at a speed that they can stop safely
This is a problem if you want this:we cannot have large areas of the country dedicated to the exclusive access of one type of pursuit, if it can have multi use, I don't see the problem.
A multiple use facility will never work if one mode of transport is putting others at risk.
A bit like our roads
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Not to ride on bridleways, no. Trail Centres or very off piste trails, yes.You never drive to a ride?
Bridleways are maintained by the council.
Personally I have never had any negative comments from walkers. A polite hello as I pass seems to get the same in reply.
The context of the comment is that we get a lot of London based Eco mentalists who drive out for a days walk and get on their pedestal when they see cyclists and are generally highly strung. Bizarrely they have no issue with horses which cause far more erosion and the mess they make sh*tting everywhere. Locals are generally fine although dog walkers are a mixed bag and the issue of dog sh*t not being cleared up is another issue.Bird Aeris : Trek Remedy 9.9 29er : Trek Procaliber 9.8 SL0 -
The reason cycles aren't allowed on public footpaths is that they are not suitably surfaced or maintained. Cycling, especially in wet conditions will cause far more damage than walking.
Personally I wouldn't ride on footpaths. Walkers already dislike us, damaging their paths will only strengthen that opinion of us.
I get annoyed by walkers on designated mountain bike trails so it works both ways.
Get out the OS map and find a bridleway route and look for wooded hillsides, they will be worth checking for trails. Bridleways can occasionally involve technical and exciting riding. Smiths Coombe on the Quantocks is amazing and that's a bridleway.
^This.
Completely agree, we have no right to mountain bike on footpaths and other private property. And it is important to respect everyone on shared use trails including dogs, horses etc. Having nearly wiped out two walkers on a dedicated mountain bike trail it definitely cuts both ways.0 -
Worst I have seen is walkers stopped to check a map on a trail at Bike Park Wales. I would guess I was doing around 35mph through a blind berm. Apparently I was the one who was irresponsible.
I have also had an issue with mountain bikers stood on the landing of the enter the dragon gap jump because they thought no one could jump it.Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=130702350 -
Bikers parked up in the middle of trails at centres has to be the biggest menace going not to mention dangerous in most instances. Why they can't move the 2 yards off to the side of the trail is beyond me.Worst I have seen is walkers stopped to check a map on a trail at Bike Park Wales. I would guess I was doing around 35mph through a blind berm. Apparently I was the one who was irresponsible.
I have also had an issue with mountain bikers stood on the landing of the enter the dragon gap jump because they thought no one could jump it.Bird Aeris : Trek Remedy 9.9 29er : Trek Procaliber 9.8 SL0 -
Bikers parked up in the middle of trails at centres has to be the biggest menace going not to mention dangerous in most instances. Why they can't move the 2 yards off to the side of the trail is beyond me.Worst I have seen is walkers stopped to check a map on a trail at Bike Park Wales. I would guess I was doing around 35mph through a blind berm. Apparently I was the one who was irresponsible.
I have also had an issue with mountain bikers stood on the landing of the enter the dragon gap jump because they thought no one could jump it.
Standing on the landing of a blind 30 foot gap step down is just plain dangerous. When I tried explaining this they told me I shouldn't have been going so fast. They couldn't understand that I needed to go forking fast to clear the gap and suggested that it's not a jump, it's a feature to roll over (there's a big GAP JUMP warning sign). C0ckwombles.Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=130702350 -
There's a group on facebook 'OpenMTB' which looks like it has started recently, to look at better access for mtb across Wales, with the hope this would strengthen the case to apply it to England. Probably won't get anywhere in my lifetime but it might be a start.0
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Worst I have seen is walkers stopped to check a map on a trail at Bike Park Wales. I would guess I was doing around 35mph through a blind berm. Apparently I was the one who was irresponsible.
I have also had an issue with mountain bikers stood on the landing of the enter the dragon gap jump because they thought no one could jump it.
What if it wasn't walkers doing a map check, but a rider who had crashed? 35mph through blind corners is just rolling the dice, unless in a race where you've got marshalls etc.0 -
Worst I have seen is walkers stopped to check a map on a trail at Bike Park Wales. I would guess I was doing around 35mph through a blind berm. Apparently I was the one who was irresponsible.
I have also had an issue with mountain bikers stood on the landing of the enter the dragon gap jump because they thought no one could jump it.
What if it wasn't walkers doing a map check, but a rider who had crashed? 35mph through blind corners is just rolling the dice, unless in a race where you've got marshalls etc.
If anyone crashed on that corner they would be over the berm and landing well off the track. The trail is built to be ridden that fast. Riding with mates always turns in to a bit of a race!Transition Patrol - viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=130702350 -
This happens in Grenoside regularly. We have three marked DH trails - but the intersect old footpaths. They are only marked at the top. So walkers will walk onto the tracks halfway down then walk up/down them! Not their fault.0
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i'd like to firstly point out that i am very respectful of others, i stop for horse riders and walkers and open gates for anyone.
i am now 40 years old and mostly enjoy my XC with slight technical. We have one local park near us but i'm not interested in big drops and jumps anymore.
As i have said i have ridden these trails for over 20 years (i know, does not mean i have any more rights than anyone else) but the trails have not been damaged in all this time, in fact its the walkers who go off the designated paths and crate new ones.
The bridlepaths are great and if they werent all like fire roads i'd happily stick to the small amount we have (10k) but i dont have a basket on the front of my bike, i want some fast technical xc and i am doing no harm to anyone.
Was chatting to the wife about this last night and the amount of incidents over 20 years is so minimal, its just the fact that new signs have gone up. someone has obviously complained or some bikers are being idiots.0 -
I don't know if this author has any legal qualifications. but this is interesting - the last few paragraphs deal with exclusive possession as a pre-req for trespass
http://www.ctc.org.uk/article/campaigns-guide/cycling-on-footpath-trespass0 -
I just ride on anything, take it easy on paths, and give way to walkers. Very rarely have any issues at all.I don't do smileys.
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Parktools0 -
I just ride on anything, take it easy on paths, and give way to walkers. Very rarely have any issues at all.
My local riding is pretty much this. Except I can't recall any issues with walkers or horse riders.
I did once have a RC Car owner getting huffy with us at the local BMX track one afternoon. He was driving his car the wrong way up the track though0
