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FTP v LTHR Question.

dilatorydilatory Posts: 565
edited September 2015 in Training, fitness and health
So potentially daft question, just put on a power meter, haven't planned to do all the proper testing until next week but have a 2x20 @100%LTHR tomorrow, when I look back at my watts, how close an approximation of the my FTP would it be?

I'll be testing properly next week as I say, but just curious as it's to come tomorrow...

Posts

  • sirmolsirmol Posts: 287
    think you times you 20 min result it by 0.95 to get your FTP.

    Check this out;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfJnHsKsUSM
  • dilatorydilatory Posts: 565
    No I understand that, I'm not doing a 20 min FTP test tomorrow, just a regular 2x20 session. I've been training on HR so will continue until I get all the results of next weeks tests. Was just curious if the combined average of both threshold intervals would give me a rough idea of what might FTP might be.
  • No I understand that, I'm not doing a 20 min FTP test tomorrow, just a regular 2x20 session. I've been training on HR so will continue until I get all the results of next weeks tests. Was just curious if the combined average of both threshold intervals would give me a rough idea of what might FTP might be.

    if you do the 2 x 20 at the maximum you can sustain across both efforts with say a 5-min easy spin between, this will (the average of the 2 efforts) be approximately your FTP.

    Note, that trying to ride to 100% of your "LTHR" (whatever that might be?) would NOT be the same because if you maintain a steady or quasi steady power effort your HR will likely increase rather than stay the same. Ergo if your HR stays the same you're either riding at a low power output, or a decreasing power output

    ric
    Coach to Michael Freiberg - Track World Champion (Omnium) 2011
    Coach to James Hayden - Transcontinental Race winner 2017, and 2018
    Coach to Jeff Jones - 2011 BBAR winner and 12-hour record
    Check out our new website https://www.cyclecoach.com
  • dilatorydilatory Posts: 565
    No I understand that, I'm not doing a 20 min FTP test tomorrow, just a regular 2x20 session. I've been training on HR so will continue until I get all the results of next weeks tests. Was just curious if the combined average of both threshold intervals would give me a rough idea of what might FTP might be.

    if you do the 2 x 20 at the maximum you can sustain across both efforts with say a 5-min easy spin between, this will (the average of the 2 efforts) be approximately your FTP.

    Note, that trying to ride to 100% of your "LTHR" (whatever that might be?) would NOT be the same because if you maintain a steady or quasi steady power effort your HR will likely increase rather than stay the same. Ergo if your HR stays the same you're either riding at a low power output, or a decreasing power output

    ric

    Lactate Threshold HR, as defined in the Friel Training Bible. It's not 100% all out for 20 minutes. It's what the Friel calculation gave me for my LTHR (lactate threshold heart rate) based on 10/12mile TT efforts and what Friel bases his HR zones on. Wondered if there was any correlation to FTP.

    Surprised that as a coach and ambassador for a coaching company you've not even come across the term LTHR before, I'm aware power is the new tool (hence my purchase) but assumed at least some knowledge of HR based training was known?
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,027
    Whats the goal?
    Every time someone posts on here, 99.99% of the time never a mention of a SPECIFIC goal!!!!
    If you dont know ... then just ride the bloomin bike and enjoy it.
    Personally, 2x20 mins time and time again are not the best training session for me but I know what I am targetting and .. the thoughts of steady states on the turbo would do my head in.
    Look up SMART

    I think the response to LTHR is with a quizzical look.. as it is a rather overblown and murky concept.
    HR response is 'interesting' to inspect not to train to.
  • No I understand that, I'm not doing a 20 min FTP test tomorrow, just a regular 2x20 session. I've been training on HR so will continue until I get all the results of next weeks tests. Was just curious if the combined average of both threshold intervals would give me a rough idea of what might FTP might be.

    if you do the 2 x 20 at the maximum you can sustain across both efforts with say a 5-min easy spin between, this will (the average of the 2 efforts) be approximately your FTP.

    Note, that trying to ride to 100% of your "LTHR" (whatever that might be?) would NOT be the same because if you maintain a steady or quasi steady power effort your HR will likely increase rather than stay the same. Ergo if your HR stays the same you're either riding at a low power output, or a decreasing power output

    ric

    Lactate Threshold HR, as defined in the Friel Training Bible. It's not 100% all out for 20 minutes. It's what the Friel calculation gave me for my LTHR (lactate threshold heart rate) based on 10/12mile TT efforts and what Friel bases his HR zones on. Wondered if there was any correlation to FTP.

    Surprised that as a coach and ambassador for a coaching company you've not even come across the term LTHR before, I'm aware power is the new tool (hence my purchase) but assumed at least some knowledge of HR based training was known?

    I'm well aware of the term LTHR, there are however, multiple meanings of such terms, and that's what my perhaps badly written quizzical expression was about: What did you mean by such a term?

    I use HR zones with some athletes i coach, who don't have a powermeter.

    That said, some background on LTHR/FTP:

    1) The definition by Friel (which doesn't have any scientific basis, i.e., isn't what a sport or exercise scientist would refer to as lactate threshold) is a *maximal* effort over ~30-mins. The last 20-mins is used.

    2) You're asking if there's any correlation between FTP (a measure of power) and LTHR a 'measure' of HR. The answer to which is no there isn't, but the question has been asked wrongly as you've mixed your metrics (power and HR). So, it maybe that there is some correlation with a differently worded question?

    3) Lactate threshold has a variety of scientific meanings, but they don't include HR. This is because LT is a measure of power (cycling) or velocity (running) against changes in blood lactate. The most common meaning is the power that is elicited by a 1mmol/L increase in lactate over exercise baseline levels, or the power elicited at a fixed 2.5 mmol/L of lactate. In both of these scenarios the power elicited would be very similar as resting lactate at exercise baseline would be 1 point something. In other words, in the first scenario it would result in a lactate reading of 2 point something. For running, just substitute power for velocity.

    4) Lactate threshold is a relatively low intensity that could be maximally sustained for about 3 to 4 hours and is about 10 to 15% below FTP

    5) Other measures that are related ish, are OBLA (onset of blood lactate accumulation) which looks at lactate at 4mmol/L, critical power concept (just a measure of power), maximal lactate steady state (which looks at the highest level of exercise intensity you can manage with a very small changes in lactate (<0.5mmol/l), as well as other such as ventilatory threshold, etc etc. (writing all out would take too long!)

    6) FTP is the highest power that can be sustained over ~1hr in a quasi steady state.

    7) Some people suggest that FTP can be calculated as 0.95 * a 20-mins maximal power test, but in reality this 0.95 is not a fixed number and varies for different people and for the same person at different times of the year/fitness levels.

    I'm well aware of how to use HR and HR zones etc, and the shortcomings of HR itself. There isn't much knowledge that anyone is likely to know about HR due to it's shortcomings, that is, HR is only one part of the equation in exercise intensity. You would need to know what your stroke volume is, or your cardiac output, along with other variables.

    Thanks
    Ric
    Coach to Michael Freiberg - Track World Champion (Omnium) 2011
    Coach to James Hayden - Transcontinental Race winner 2017, and 2018
    Coach to Jeff Jones - 2011 BBAR winner and 12-hour record
    Check out our new website https://www.cyclecoach.com
  • dilatorydilatory Posts: 565
    Thanks for the detailed reply, and apologies if I came off as snarky.

    I only have Friel's word to go on, obviously not had any lactate testing itself but have found the zones set accordingly seem to make sense to me.

    All said, I decided to sack off the 2x20 session and do a 20 min power test instead. Fun.
  • Thanks for the detailed reply, and apologies if I came off as snarky.

    I only have Friel's word to go on, obviously not had any lactate testing itself but have found the zones set accordingly seem to make sense to me.

    All said, I decided to sack off the 2x20 session and do a 20 min power test instead. Fun.

    It's all good :)

    In terms of the science, i'm not certain that JF always describes things well, but that's probably less important for coaching per se. We have a set of zones based on either HRmax or TT efforts which work well, as does JF, British Cycling and lots of other people or companies, etc. Pick one and use it. be careful how you interpret workouts from people who use different zones!
    Coach to Michael Freiberg - Track World Champion (Omnium) 2011
    Coach to James Hayden - Transcontinental Race winner 2017, and 2018
    Coach to Jeff Jones - 2011 BBAR winner and 12-hour record
    Check out our new website https://www.cyclecoach.com
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    No I understand that, I'm not doing a 20 min FTP test tomorrow, just a regular 2x20 session. I've been training on HR so will continue until I get all the results of next weeks tests. Was just curious if the combined average of both threshold intervals would give me a rough idea of what might FTP might be.

    if you do the 2 x 20 at the maximum you can sustain across both efforts with say a 5-min easy spin between, this will (the average of the 2 efforts) be approximately your FTP.

    Note, that trying to ride to 100% of your "LTHR" (whatever that might be?) would NOT be the same because if you maintain a steady or quasi steady power effort your HR will likely increase rather than stay the same. Ergo if your HR stays the same you're either riding at a low power output, or a decreasing power output

    ric

    Lactate Threshold HR, as defined in the Friel Training Bible. It's not 100% all out for 20 minutes. It's what the Friel calculation gave me for my LTHR (lactate threshold heart rate) based on 10/12mile TT efforts and what Friel bases his HR zones on. Wondered if there was any correlation to FTP.

    Surprised that as a coach and ambassador for a coaching company you've not even come across the term LTHR before, I'm aware power is the new tool (hence my purchase) but assumed at least some knowledge of HR based training was known?

    I'm well aware of the term LTHR, there are however, multiple meanings of such terms, and that's what my perhaps badly written quizzical expression was about: What did you mean by such a term?

    I use HR zones with some athletes i coach, who don't have a powermeter.

    That said, some background on LTHR/FTP:

    1) The definition by Friel (which doesn't have any scientific basis, i.e., isn't what a sport or exercise scientist would refer to as lactate threshold) is a *maximal* effort over ~30-mins. The last 20-mins is used.

    2) You're asking if there's any correlation between FTP (a measure of power) and LTHR a 'measure' of HR. The answer to which is no there isn't, but the question has been asked wrongly as you've mixed your metrics (power and HR). So, it maybe that there is some correlation with a differently worded question?

    3) Lactate threshold has a variety of scientific meanings, but they don't include HR. This is because LT is a measure of power (cycling) or velocity (running) against changes in blood lactate. The most common meaning is the power that is elicited by a 1mmol/L increase in lactate over exercise baseline levels, or the power elicited at a fixed 2.5 mmol/L of lactate. In both of these scenarios the power elicited would be very similar as resting lactate at exercise baseline would be 1 point something. In other words, in the first scenario it would result in a lactate reading of 2 point something. For running, just substitute power for velocity.

    4) Lactate threshold is a relatively low intensity that could be maximally sustained for about 3 to 4 hours and is about 10 to 15% below FTP

    5) Other measures that are related ish, are OBLA (onset of blood lactate accumulation) which looks at lactate at 4mmol/L, critical power concept (just a measure of power), maximal lactate steady state (which looks at the highest level of exercise intensity you can manage with a very small changes in lactate (<0.5mmol/l), as well as other such as ventilatory threshold, etc etc. (writing all out would take too long!)

    6) FTP is the highest power that can be sustained over ~1hr in a quasi steady state.

    7) Some people suggest that FTP can be calculated as 0.95 * a 20-mins maximal power test, but in reality this 0.95 is not a fixed number and varies for different people and for the same person at different times of the year/fitness levels.

    I'm well aware of how to use HR and HR zones etc, and the shortcomings of HR itself. There isn't much knowledge that anyone is likely to know about HR due to it's shortcomings, that is, HR is only one part of the equation in exercise intensity. You would need to know what your stroke volume is, or your cardiac output, along with other variables.

    Thanks
    Ric

    Sorry Ric mate. You are wrong. Andrew Coggan has changed FTP.

    FTP is now,

    "The highest power that can be sustained in a quasi stable state for a prolonged period of time."

    Say hello to Alex.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    No I understand that, I'm not doing a 20 min FTP test tomorrow, just a regular 2x20 session. I've been training on HR so will continue until I get all the results of next weeks tests. Was just curious if the combined average of both threshold intervals would give me a rough idea of what might FTP might be.

    if you do the 2 x 20 at the maximum you can sustain across both efforts with say a 5-min easy spin between, this will (the average of the 2 efforts) be approximately your FTP.

    Note, that trying to ride to 100% of your "LTHR" (whatever that might be?) would NOT be the same because if you maintain a steady or quasi steady power effort your HR will likely increase rather than stay the same. Ergo if your HR stays the same you're either riding at a low power output, or a decreasing power output

    ric

    Lactate Threshold HR, as defined in the Friel Training Bible. It's not 100% all out for 20 minutes. It's what the Friel calculation gave me for my LTHR (lactate threshold heart rate) based on 10/12mile TT efforts and what Friel bases his HR zones on. Wondered if there was any correlation to FTP.

    Surprised that as a coach and ambassador for a coaching company you've not even come across the term LTHR before, I'm aware power is the new tool (hence my purchase) but assumed at least some knowledge of HR based training was known?

    I'm well aware of the term LTHR, there are however, multiple meanings of such terms, and that's what my perhaps badly written quizzical expression was about: What did you mean by such a term?

    I use HR zones with some athletes i coach, who don't have a powermeter.

    That said, some background on LTHR/FTP:

    1) The definition by Friel (which doesn't have any scientific basis, i.e., isn't what a sport or exercise scientist would refer to as lactate threshold) is a *maximal* effort over ~30-mins. The last 20-mins is used.

    2) You're asking if there's any correlation between FTP (a measure of power) and LTHR a 'measure' of HR. The answer to which is no there isn't, but the question has been asked wrongly as you've mixed your metrics (power and HR). So, it maybe that there is some correlation with a differently worded question?

    3) Lactate threshold has a variety of scientific meanings, but they don't include HR. This is because LT is a measure of power (cycling) or velocity (running) against changes in blood lactate. The most common meaning is the power that is elicited by a 1mmol/L increase in lactate over exercise baseline levels, or the power elicited at a fixed 2.5 mmol/L of lactate. In both of these scenarios the power elicited would be very similar as resting lactate at exercise baseline would be 1 point something. In other words, in the first scenario it would result in a lactate reading of 2 point something. For running, just substitute power for velocity.

    4) Lactate threshold is a relatively low intensity that could be maximally sustained for about 3 to 4 hours and is about 10 to 15% below FTP

    5) Other measures that are related ish, are OBLA (onset of blood lactate accumulation) which looks at lactate at 4mmol/L, critical power concept (just a measure of power), maximal lactate steady state (which looks at the highest level of exercise intensity you can manage with a very small changes in lactate (<0.5mmol/l), as well as other such as ventilatory threshold, etc etc. (writing all out would take too long!)

    6) FTP is the highest power that can be sustained over ~1hr in a quasi steady state.

    7) Some people suggest that FTP can be calculated as 0.95 * a 20-mins maximal power test, but in reality this 0.95 is not a fixed number and varies for different people and for the same person at different times of the year/fitness levels.

    I'm well aware of how to use HR and HR zones etc, and the shortcomings of HR itself. There isn't much knowledge that anyone is likely to know about HR due to it's shortcomings, that is, HR is only one part of the equation in exercise intensity. You would need to know what your stroke volume is, or your cardiac output, along with other variables.

    Thanks
    Ric

    Ric,

    FTP, Functional Threshold Power , is so old school.

    It's all moved on now.

    MCL ( Metabolic Control Limit ) is what you need to identify.
  • FWIW the results from my 20 min and my subsequent estimated FTP actually has my HR sitting around Friel's "LTHR" from the 30 min test. Now having abandoned HR zones for training, I do notice a lot of the zones I was using sit close by the power zones (at least from 1 - 4). Where the power shines for is the shorter harder efforts. A coach would currently stretch my budget sadly, but my numbers were promising for the time I've been cycling, so another year of self coaching and racing and I'll look at it this time next year (y)
  • Sorry Ric mate. You are wrong. Andrew Coggan has changed FTP.

    FTP is now,

    "The highest power that can be sustained in a quasi stable state for a prolonged period of time."

    Say hello to Alex.

    Give it a rest Trev.
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