It's definitely getting worse out there...
Comments
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19679201#p19679201]ShimanoBottomBracket[/url] wrote:
As a motorist myself I can say that the experience of driving is getting ridiculously frustrating. Its even worse if your a young driver due to excessive insurance, plus restrictions in many cases. As a motorist you pay through the nose for maintenance, fuel and road related taxes (fuel duty, VED, VAT on the labour charges etc). You spend time and money training to drive and learning the rules. What do you (as a motorist) get in return for your efforts? You get penalised for minor mistakes and points added to your license. You pay enough to keep your car moving and then you pay more when you find a place to stop it. Your faced with road works, congestion and friggin traffic lights every few yards in many places. You eventually get to a clear motorway only to find more bastard speed cameras and a ridiculous speed limit of 50mph.
The result of all this are very irate motorists on a dwindling fuse in control of a 1 ton (or more) machine which is easily capable of killing people. I do not like to hold up people in cars, not even for a second or 2 if I can help it.
This is an intriguing post; first it explains why motorists are so jolly cross about everything - and then it cites those causes (by implication) as a reason why the author when cycling does not like to hold motorists up for even a second.
First, driving is not ridiculously frustrating as an experience. I've been driving for slightly more than 30 years and continue to enjoy it immensely. There are rules - and it is getting harder to bend them - but that is hardly a frustration. There are costs, but so there should be. Despite all the moaning about paying through the nose, I still know many people on very modest incomes who insist on driving heavy, thirsty, 'prestige' cars for which the only clear justification is vanity or something like it. Vanity is (and always has been) costly.
Even being restricted to 50 on a Motorway is hardly a big loss. Covering twenty miles at 50 instead of 70 has little impact on journey time - and these 50mph restrictions are rarely more than a few miles in length.
I admit (despite being a keen cyclist) to being a slave to the car. I keep (it is actually my wife's) a small roadster from the 1960s for occasional summer use. It weighs about 700Kg and makes 55bhp, but it is as quick on today's roads as many modern cars. And more fun. Driving is still a pleasure. Most road users are polite, skilled and thoughtful. That goes for cyclists and motorists.
There are some knuckle-headed wannabe Seb Ogier types, but most are lovely. I'm not sure why we sometimes feel the need to ramp the whole highway confrontation thing up so much. If we were all as pumped up as some posters imply, it would be like a Mad Max film out there. It is not. It is the High Street.0 -
I say that with 40 years of driving experience doing over 20k miles per year that the standard of driving is getting terrible.You're wrong. Deal with it.
I stand by that regardless of your comments. Tell me how the standards are improving. And where.
I did not say the standards are improving, you said "I find that the standard of driving is declining rapidly, full stop". I don't believe the standard is changing rapidly either way, well, it isn't, there is no rapid change going on. You should write for the Daily Mail.0 -
I do find driving pretty frustrating a lot of the time, as a cyclist and motorcyclist I'm used to being able to nip through traffic and sitting in queues is not my idea of fun. I rarely take the car if there's an alternative.
BUT
I recognise the reason for all that traffic is almost always too many cars (like the one I'm driving) on the roads.
- Billions of pounds worth of infrastructure and the freedom to use it to go pretty much anywhere in the country as long as you follow some sensible rules.You spend time and money training to drive and learning the rules. What do you (as a motorist) get in return for your efforts?
- Good, those 'minor mistakes' often have the potential to ruin somebody's life.You get penalised for minor mistakes and points added to your license.
- Good, without parking restrictions the roads would be even more congested, I don't want people just stopping wherever they want for as long as they want.You pay enough to keep your car moving and then you pay more when you find a place to stop it.
- road works often caused by damage to roads caused by cars, congestion is just another name for lots of cars, traffic lights required to control the flow of all the cars.Your faced with road works, congestion and friggin traffic lights
- probably a 50mph limit to stop car drivers killing workers who are repairing/upgrading the motorway due to the large number of cars using it.You eventually get to a clear motorway only to find more bastard speed cameras and a ridiculous speed limit of 50mph0 -
I put a post out there attempting to explain that drivers attitude in general is getting worse.
This is contributing to the attitude to cyclists.
I have made my point and I am done.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
It is definitely getting worse out there... There are far too many cyclists on the road.
Ten years ago I had Derbyshires country roads to myself but those once empty roads are now littered with nodding cyclists, clad head to toe in Hi-Viz.
I used to love the solitude of cycling but that has now been ruined... Cheers Brad.
Are they all copying Chris Froome's riding style now?0 -
I was curious and found the numbers of reported accidents per year and it is getting......... better:
"The risk of being involved in an accident and being hurt or killed whilst travelling on the
roads has diminished over time. In 1938 there were 314 casualties for every 100 million
kilometres travelled while in 2012 there were 41 casualties per 100 million kilometres
travelled"www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes0 -
a metre out from parked car doors, or closing down a potential pinch point in advance of getting to it, I get really aggressive motorists blaring their horns and winding their windows down and shouting "why are you riding in the middle of the road"! .
To be fair, some cyclists are just as bad as car drivers
Are you literally in the middle of the road doing 14 mph causing a tail back.
I cycle just over a metre from the curb and if I know a car is stuck behind me I tend to coast and give them them the thumbs up to pass and wave a thanks for waiting. I've never had a road rage problem.
Last time I drove in Leeds, on Wellington St heading towards Kirkstall. I was driving behind a woman cyclist with big shopping bags in her hands and when she went to cycle around parked buses not once did she look over her right shoulder to see if it was safe. That looking over your right shoulder before you swerve into traffic has a name... then theres the cyclists at night with no lights, all basic stuff. At best it makes us cyclists look bad, at worse it will kill you."The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby0 -
I've been thinking how much better things have been getting!0
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Maybe half the drivers on my commute don't bother to indicate at T-junctions, or - even more unforgivably -when exiting a roundabout, despite the fact that you (whether cyclist or driver) are clearly sat there waiting to enter said roundabout. This seems to only have become common in the last 5 or 6 years and the laziness/selfishness of people who CBA to flick their indicator so that another driver can finally access a busy roundabout is something that really winds me up. The more that cars are becoming automated, eg rain-activated windscreen wipers, apparently gives some people the idea that they don't have to try so hard...Job: Job, n,. A frustratingly long period of time separating two shorter than usual training rides0
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Fair enough, but not on the A9 which when I went there a few months back was fairly empty, but full of those bastard average speed cameras. Im not into trackdays, but im not dawdling either. Sad fact is that many people can drive quickly but safely when applying common sense. However many people lack common sense and this is what draconian rules are for. We all sufferI do find driving pretty frustrating a lot of the time, as a cyclist and motorcyclist I'm used to being able to nip through traffic and sitting in queues is not my idea of fun. I rarely take the car if there's an alternative.
BUT
I recognise the reason for all that traffic is almost always too many cars (like the one I'm driving) on the roads.
- Billions of pounds worth of infrastructure and the freedom to use it to go pretty much anywhere in the country as long as you follow some sensible rules.You spend time and money training to drive and learning the rules. What do you (as a motorist) get in return for your efforts?
Billions of pounds of failing infrastructure. Im not talking about physical deterioration (altho that is a problem), its more about volume of traffic. When selling football tickets, you stop selling when all the seats are booked. Think of this as already happening with cars on the roads, except they are still selling the tickets. You buy a car to get somewhere reasonably fast, not to be jammed in like a sardine, or monitored like a fricken lab rat.
- Good, those 'minor mistakes' often have the potential to ruin somebody's life. I see your point here. But good judgement is required to make those penalties not draconian. 85mph on an empty motorway isnt generally a problem worth punishing someone for. On the other hand, 5 years in jail for a fatal driveby shooting would be a bit slack.You get penalised for minor mistakes and points added to your license.
- Good, without parking restrictions the roads would be even more congested, I don't want people just stopping wherever they want for as long as they want.I was referring to "Pay and Display" rather than parking just about anywhere and getting a fine.You pay enough to keep your car moving and then you pay more when you find a place to stop it.
- road works often caused by damage to roads caused by cars, congestion is just another name for lots of cars, traffic lights required to control the flow of all the cars. I got stopped by a red light on the commute this morning. It turned green again before any other cars passed from the direction the lights were allowing for.Your faced with road works, congestion and friggin traffic lights
- probably a 50mph limit to stop car drivers killing workers who are repairing/upgrading the motorway due to the large number of cars using it.You eventually get to a clear motorway only to find more bastard speed cameras and a ridiculous speed limit of 50mph0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19680081#p19680081]ShimanoBottomBracket[/url] wrote:
Fair enough, but not on the A9 which when I went there a few months back was fairly empty, but full of those bastard average speed cameras. Im not into trackdays, but im not dawdling either. Sad fact is that many people can drive quickly but safely when applying common sense. However many people lack common sense and this is what draconian rules are for. We all sufferI do find driving pretty frustrating a lot of the time, as a cyclist and motorcyclist I'm used to being able to nip through traffic and sitting in queues is not my idea of fun. I rarely take the car if there's an alternative.
BUT
I recognise the reason for all that traffic is almost always too many cars (like the one I'm driving) on the roads.
- Billions of pounds worth of infrastructure and the freedom to use it to go pretty much anywhere in the country as long as you follow some sensible rules.You spend time and money training to drive and learning the rules. What do you (as a motorist) get in return for your efforts?
Billions of pounds of failing infrastructure. Im not talking about physical deterioration (altho that is a problem), its more about volume of traffic. When selling football tickets, you stop selling when all the seats are booked. Think of this as already happening with cars on the roads, except they are still selling the tickets. You buy a car to get somewhere reasonably fast, not to be jammed in like a sardine, or monitored like a fricken lab rat.
- Good, those 'minor mistakes' often have the potential to ruin somebody's life. I see your point here. But good judgement is required to make those penalties not draconian. 85mph on an empty motorway isnt generally a problem worth punishing someone for. On the other hand, 5 years in jail for a fatal driveby shooting would be a bit slack.You get penalised for minor mistakes and points added to your license.
- Good, without parking restrictions the roads would be even more congested, I don't want people just stopping wherever they want for as long as they want.I was referring to "Pay and Display" rather than parking just about anywhere and getting a fine.You pay enough to keep your car moving and then you pay more when you find a place to stop it.
- road works often caused by damage to roads caused by cars, congestion is just another name for lots of cars, traffic lights required to control the flow of all the cars. I got stopped by a red light on the commute this morning. It turned green again before any other cars passed from the direction the lights were allowing for.Your faced with road works, congestion and friggin traffic lights
- probably a 50mph limit to stop car drivers killing workers who are repairing/upgrading the motorway due to the large number of cars using it.You eventually get to a clear motorway only to find more bastard speed cameras and a ridiculous speed limit of 50mph
The further people are removed from decisions as a society, the safer it is, hence the driver-less cars being developed, and the driving rules which and things light traffic lights in response to the appalling amounts of crashes/deaths on the roads.
hence the post over the page pointing out the trend has been for falling deaths per year.
unless you have very clear roads which you can hold high speeds for a significant time, it just doesn't make difference, in terms of getting from A to B quickly how strong your bladder or passengers bladder is makes more of a difference TBH.
some cars are fun to drive, but for speed it's self not appropriate or ever really was on the public roads.0 -
The further people are removed from decisions as a society, the safer it is, hence the driver-less cars being developed, and the driving rules which and things light traffic lights in response to the appalling amounts of crashes/deaths on the roads.
hence the post over the page pointing out the trend has been for falling deaths per year.
unless you have very clear roads which you can hold high speeds for a significant time, it just doesn't make difference, in terms of getting from A to B quickly how strong your bladder or passengers bladder is makes more of a difference TBH.
some cars are fun to drive, but for speed it's self not appropriate or ever really was on the public roads.
Yes, and 5yp xfdrhj things too aren't its why.0 -
a metre out from parked car doors, or closing down a potential pinch point in advance of getting to it, I get really aggressive motorists blaring their horns and winding their windows down and shouting "why are you riding in the middle of the road"! .
To be fair, some cyclists are just as bad as car drivers
Are you literally in the middle of the road doing 14 mph causing a tail back.
I cycle just over a metre from the curb and if I know a car is stuck behind me I tend to coast and give them them the thumbs up to pass and wave a thanks for waiting. I've never had a road rage problem.
Last time I drove in Leeds, on Wellington St heading towards Kirkstall. I was driving behind a woman cyclist with big shopping bags in her hands and when she went to cycle around parked buses not once did she look over her right shoulder to see if it was safe. That looking over your right shoulder before you swerve into traffic has a name... then theres the cyclists at night with no lights, all basic stuff. At best it makes us cyclists look bad, at worse it will kill you.
No mate I'm not. Just far enough out and for as long as is necessary for my own safety.
Some motorists are just so impatient. Had one woman recently blaring her horn at me to get past when I was in primary position for a legitimate reason, yet 100 yards in front of her was a huge traffic jam. I think the drivers get frustrated and take it out on us.Cannondale Killer V
Trek 6500
Cannondale Bad Boy
LOOK KG176
Giant TCR Composite 10 -
No mate I'm not. Just far enough out and for as long as is necessary for my own safety.
Some motorists are just so impatient. Had one woman recently blaring her horn at me to get past when I was in primary position for a legitimate reason, yet 100 yards in front of her was a huge traffic jam. I think the drivers get frustrated and take it out on us.
This happened to me this morning. A polite wave from me calmed it down as I don't filter and sat in traffic, I think he realised he was over reacting as we were approaching a red light. I was also backed ended today by a cyclist as I stopped at a junction. No harm done, but, spatial awareness is needed in London. There are idiots in all walks of life.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19680009#p19680009]steadyrollingman[/url] wrote:Maybe half the drivers on my commute don't bother to indicate at T-junctions, or - even more unforgivably -when exiting a roundabout, despite the fact that you (whether cyclist or driver) are clearly sat there waiting to enter said roundabout. This seems to only have become common in the last 5 or 6 years and the laziness/selfishness of people who CBA to flick their indicator so that another driver can finally access a busy roundabout is something that really winds me up. The more that cars are becoming automated, eg rain-activated windscreen wipers, apparently gives some people the idea that they don't have to try so hard...
This has to be my biggest bugbear both as a driver and a cyclist. A large number of drivers just don't seem to bother indicating at all these days they just seem to think that because they are thinking about turning or whatever everyone else can just pick up their thoughts automatically.0 -
I think there are a couple of things here that are contributing to the 'it's getting worse/it's getting better' argument
Firstly - the sheer number of cyclists - especially in cities - means that general driving standards HAVE to improve. If they didn't, drivers would be wiping out cyclists left right and centre - and statistics do not show this to be the case
Secondly - there will always be a small percentage of tosspots driving who don't give a monkeys about cyclists. I fear the media's attempt to create the impression that there is a 'war' going on between drivers and cyclists fosters an air of legitimising moronic behaviour - allowing the peabrained to justify their actions when driving like tw@ts, abusing cyclists or generally moaning about themFat chopper. Some racing. Some testing. Some crashing.
Specialising in Git Daaahns and Cafs. Norvern Munkey/Transplanted Laaandoner.0 -
Yup - it's generally the minority who get the attention. I myself tend to recall the rare close shaves as opposed to the many hours without incident.... there will always be a small percentage of tosspots driving who don't give a monkeys about cyclists. I fear the media's attempt to create the impression that there is a 'war' going on between drivers and cyclists fosters an air of legitimising moronic behaviour - allowing the peabrained to justify their actions when driving like tw@ts, abusing cyclists or generally moaning about them0 -
I don't think that you can extrapolate any meaningful conclusion regarding the standard of driving based solely upon the KSI statistics. Your chances of being killed or seriously injured in a road traffic collision have been heavily influenced by things such as airbags, crumple zones, mandatory seat belts and better medical treatment. None of which seem to me to have much influence - if any - on the actual standard of driving.They use their cars as shopping baskets; they use their cars as overcoats.0
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I think it depends on where you are.
I did a charity coast to coast ride last month and it really did seem like some areas are just terrible for getting random abuse.
There were noticeable differences in the motorists attitudes as we progressed across the country.Canyon Spectral AL 9.0 EX
Planet X RT90 Ultegra Di20 -
Down here in Kent I have to say the level of courtesy and respect shown to me as a cyclist has increased in the past couple of years. It's almost as if motorists are starting to think we actually have a right to be there.
I try to do my bit as well by acknowledging kindnesses, hoping to encourage them, and apologising with a gesture if I do something a bit stupid, as happens from time to time.0 -
It is getting worse, last year, hit by Merc van from behind on round about, broken Pelvis/Hip, smashed shoulder, torn ligaments, both wrist fractured 3 months on crutches, 2 months later, side swiped by BMW in dark, didnt stop, road rash/some bike bits damaged,
Christmas morning, down pot hole, over bars, damaged same shoulder,
Now the good part, after 10 months of not saying anything, insurance Co for Merc van, came up with witness who said, I rode to fast into round about and straight into side of van, I must have been ridding back wards to end up with smashed rear wheel, there was also damage to front wheel, so £3,500.00 Lightweight wheels, cracked carbon frame, damaged Super Record 11,
Could,nt get Number of BMW,
Pot hole filled,
Some years ago in Cycling Weekly, someone suggested carrying a small gun, may have to look into this. Any suggestions. tony.westclassics@live.co.uk0 -
That's the (southern) French way, and it's definitely getting more common here now. In France, you know it's going to be really tight when the car coming the other way starts flashing its lights and driving towards the verge. Put that together with the view that the speed limit is a target, not just a maximum, and it can be hairy at times.If people want to shout at me for trying to make myself stand out and be safe then I dont mind as at least its worked.
What does get to me is when they overtake and then miss the on coming car by inches at 30+ mph.... One day i'm sure I will watch a head-on and have to deal with picking up the pieces so to speak!!0 -
I, like the OP, ride in Leeds. I find it OK. There's a few crap drivers but most are pretty good. There's a certain amount of idiocy but not sure if any more than there was in the past. Sometimes I get mildly irritated by it but its rare that I experience anything that I'd count as seriously dangerous.
I guess experiences may vary.Faster than a tent.......0 -
There's no doubt the roads are more crowded now than say 10 years ago. Everyone's in a rush and especially in towns and cities the roads are a pressure cooker, especially during the morning and evening rush hours.
Add to this more people taking up cycling than ever before both for commuting and leisure and there's bound to be more conflict between cyclists and drivers.
Are there more bad drivers than before? Maybe, but there's also deffo more bad / rude bikers as well. It's an inevitable side effect of more people of all ages and abilities being out there on two wheels.
I had a charming chap who was riding a top spec road bike and had all the gear on tell me to f*^k off the other evening just because I put the window of my car down at the lights to tell him his rear light had stopped working,http:\\www.thedecliningcyclist.wordpress.com
One mans battle with mediocrity and his declining physical powers.........0
