CHEDECH: Quest to design the ultimate folding bike!
Comments
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Hi Everyone! Wow, the thread has been energized since being relocated to the commuting section. Fantastic. I'll try work my way through the questions and concerns. Firstly, let me address the patent/copyright issue . . .
Brompton received patent rights in 1977 in the USA and 1979 in England and Japan. After consulting with a patent attorney, we learned that these rights expired in 1999. Since 1999, the patent right on Brompton's folding design has been open. Dahon tried to use the Brompton folding method with their Dahon Curl model. We are using Brompton's folding method. Until now, this method has been mostly reserved for heavy metal materials, like iron/steel. For the past three years we have conducted indepth research and extensive testing to perfect a surprising innovation. Chedech features new technologies, which will be open and shared.
Copyright/patent infringements aside, reinventing the wheel is a bit pointless. With any new bike, whether it be standard or folding or other, I personally think it's all about making little improvements, adding something special, and putting all the components together in an improved way. There needs to be some kind of justification for the creation of a new bike. We didn't invent the folding bike and neither did Brompton! The British army made and used a folding bike before WWI. The Italians also used a folding bike in the early part of the 20th century. Chedech will have many features that are familiar, but the overall package will be unique, most notably — it will be a high quality carbon fiber folding bike that will NOT cost $5000 USD.0 -
If I could get rid of the suspension on my Brompton S2 then I would. It saps energy when riding. A decent seat post and a decent saddle will provide sufficient comfort.
In your opinion, would removing the suspension of the S2 allow the bike to glide and ride faster and also be slightly lighter? We haven't found our suspension to be an energy sapper, but our team went back and forth on the weight issue. After all the debate, we decided to keep the suspension, at least for the initial release. If there are enough potential users like yourself, we may need to consider a suspension-free model.0 -
Funny seeing as how Carbon fibre is actually the most robust bike frame material in current mass usage (Titanium reinforced is even better, but rarely used).I think Carbon Fibre is an awful choice of material for a commuting folding bike. They need to be robust.
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The primary reason for Chedech is to release a top-notch folder that is lighter in weight, yet durable, and reasonably priced (or perhaps relatively inexpensive considering the features). We will not release a disposable bike. We are determined to produce something that can withstand daily urban abuse. Having said that, our bike is a city folder, not a mountain bike.0 -
Our four basic goals:
1. Folds small in one quick moment, with ease.
2. Light enough to carry by hand.
3. Glides fast and pleasant to ride.
4. Absorbs riding impact for comfort.
<<Puts on business case hat>>
Do these objectives have any measurable targets against them - for example, folded size, weight range, etc.? Also cost is a primary consideration (both of manufacture and to the consumer).
The other consideration is "what is already on the market, and what do we offer that's better?" - there's any number of foldies out there, plus alternatives such as Boris bikes (and other hire schemes), etc. The most popular choice in London seems to be the Brompton, which folds well but is costly and - IMHO - is a bit weird to ride. But crucially - possibly by accident - it's in tune with the current consumer trend for 'customisation' - being able to make a mass-produced item 'individual' (think Mini).
So what is the USP of your offering going to be?
PS: I'm not trying to dismiss your concept - far from it, I think that Brompton have had it far too much their own way for too long - but these are the business considerations you need to think about (unless this is purely an academic exercise).
Your post is much appreciated and you raise some great questions and concerns. I promised the admin and mods that this thread would not be about selling our bike, but rather generating discussion and debate. I don't want to violate any rules or break our promise, but let me say that I estimate the initial release price to be somewhere between $2300 to $2500.
Brompton doesn't make a lightweight, CF framed folding bike. In fact, not many have been successful at producing such a beast. We plan to change that! We designed Chedech because we firmly believe there is a market for a good CF City Folder.
I'll work on getting accurate specs.0 -
Don't disagree with that - I was always told cf was incredibly strong - in the directions it was designed to be strong in. I am not an engineer and do not know if a cf frame can be strong in every direction that it needs to be as a folding bike, but was always lead to believe that this was the case. Also, is the fear with cf that if it is damaged, it is more likely to fail, rather than say steel that will not do so?
Funny seeing as how Carbon fibre is actually the most robust bike frame material in current mass usage (Titanium reinforced is even better, but rarely used).I think Carbon Fibre is an awful choice of material for a commuting folding bike. They need to be robust.
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Chedech - you are right re patent. I was thinking about merc who were done under copyright for stealing designs they had previously been licensed to use....http://www.georgesfoundation.org
http://100hillsforgeorge.blogspot.com/
http://www.12on12in12.blogspot.co.uk/0 -
A CF Brompton would be great, assuming there is a big weight saving over the Ti/Steel combo on offer.
You also need to crack £1000 or below to succeed in the UK where many people use the ride2work scheme to buy bikes up to that price point. I think leaving room and addings fittings for a front mud-guard in the future would be wise too.0 -
Just on the aspect of suspension... I have a Brompton. When I bought it, I had the firmest suspension block fitted. It's still a bit too bouncy for my liking. I'd prefer not to have suspension at all as I don't see the point. I don't have it on my road bike or cyclocross bike.0
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+1 on not seeing the need for suspension.
Nobody is going to go mountain biking with this - even if it's technically capable. So save the weight, save the complexity and cost and end up with probably a better/firmer ride.
My 2 penneth anyway0 -
Just on the aspect of suspension... I have a Brompton. When I bought it, I had the firmest suspension block fitted. It's still a bit too bouncy for my liking. I'd prefer not to have suspension at all as I don't see the point. I don't have it on my road bike or cyclocross bike.
Suspension has been one of our biggest internal and external debates. I wouldn't be surprised if it will someday become an optional feature or if there will be models with and without suspension. For the initial release, it's included. I haven't had the chance to ride the most recent prototype, but I've heard from other Chedech team members that the suspension is smooth and tight.0 -
+1 on not seeing the need for suspension. Nobody is going to go mountain biking with this - even if it's technically capable. So save the weight, save the complexity and cost and end up with probably a better/firmer ride. My 2 penneth anyway
Your two cents are greatly valued. Much appreciation for your thoughts. Please see our previous response. I'll continue to pass along these comments to the rest of the team.0 -
Secret Sam Wrote, "So what is the USP of your offering going to be?"
I hope I'm not violating forum rules by mentioning this. If so, please accept my apology, delete this post, but not the entire thread.
We've received several suggestions to lower the price of chedech to 1000UK/1500US. In response, we've launched a special 30 bike campaign. Our hope is that this first run will raise interest and awareness about our carbon folding bike. As you know, it's a tough market to crack. Hopefully, we can crack it and prove that our frame doesn't crack! ;-)
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/carbon-folding-bike-chedech--3/x/12017280#/story0 -
From the pictures on your Indiegogo page your bike looks very similar in design to a Brompton, the only difference being the frame material. You have even copied the Brompton logo. How about you go back to the drawing board and put something original into your design?0
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From the pictures on your Indiegogo page your bike looks very similar in design to a Brompton, the only difference being the frame material. You have even copied the Brompton logo. How about you go back to the drawing board and put something original into your design?
I'd be inclined to agree. It looks like a rip off of a Brompton, whilst also being more expensive, and less practical.
Folding bikes are designed primarily for short commuting journeys, where practicalities trump weight savings. I'd far rather have a durable steel or aluminium bike over something that could be destroyed in an instant if it falls over badly against a kerb.
For a commuting bike, I'd also want something that I could add full length mudguards, racks and panniers to if need be, as I'd probably be wearing 'normal' clothes, or even a suit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your bike does not even have eyelets in the forks or dropouts to enable them to be attached? The Brompton comes with full length mudguards as standard, as nobody wants to get their suit filthy whilst riding their bike on a damp salty road in the winter. There is also an optional rear pannier rack, and luggage options that are specially designed to fit brackets on the frame, as it's no fun trying to carry a laptop, and files for a meeting in a backpack whilst wearing a suit.
I'm afraid that to me, it just seems that you've missed the whole point, and ripped off a classic British design in doing so, which is a real shame.1938 Hobbs Tandem
1956 Carlton Flyer Path/Track
1960 Mercian Superlight Track
1974 Pete Luxton Path/Track*
1980 Harry Hall
1986 Dawes Galaxy
1988 Jack Taylor Tourer
1988 Pearson
1989 Condor
1993 Dawes Hybrid
2016 Ridley Helium SL
*Currently on this0 -
I will write a more detailed response later, but for now let me just say that our bike is designed for city bike cyclists who want a lighter folding bike that rides and feels more like a standard bike. Carbon is strong, although it is NOT a tank. Brompton is a great folding bike, and some elements of chedech are clearly inspired, i.e., folding system . . . patent expired in 1999. Yet, a iron folding bike is not suitable for everyone. That's where chedech comes in!0
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Dear Folding Bike Riders,
This is Oscar. I am running the chedech team. It has been brought to my attention that some of you do not like chedech, considering it a copy of Brompton. At this time, I feel I need to say something:
There could be several different reasons to design a new bike. Some designers from an engineering background might want to introduce a completely new kind of bike and surprise people with their bold new concept. But I did not start from that place.
I liked Brompton very much, but I wanted a lighter model that rode and felt more like a standard bike. I was just one bike rider, who dreamed of having a carbon folding bike. But such a bike did not exist! So I studied why there were no carbon folding bikes on the market.
I came to realize that a single-lined frame structure does not favor carbon material because it shakes due to its flexibility. If you have ever tried a carbon seat post, then you would know that it’s too flexible for a longer seat post used for normal MTB or Road bikes. So, it seemed impossible, but I made up my mind to start this project anyhow.
In the beginning, I was thinking of making an exchangeable carbon frame for Brompton, but I discovered it was not that simple. The frame has to be thicker in order to diminish the shaking movement between the handle bar and saddle. So, I started to design the whole bike with new concept, and it took 3 years.
There are some people who could try to start this kind of new business, but only a few would be able to experiment for three years on this seemingly impossible project. I also designed some new innovations into the carbon structure.
1. Carbon Frame: I adopted a hexa frame in the beginning, which became poly-frame (with up to 12 planes) in the end. But that new frame did not work well against the twisting movement. So, I had to put more ideas, and that kept on going until I produce 6 different frames. I was not sure I could really make it, until I finish the final sixth frame. Anyway, the final one is more than a perfect one. One of the big global Brompton agents tested my bike during Eurobike, and he said that he was really surprised at the rigid riding feeling, not matching his pre-calculation about single lined carbon frame.
2. New Hinge System: We invented new hinge designs. The main hinge, which connects the main frame and the rear frame is completely different. We are not showing it clearly in our photos and video because we want to keep it a secret until we release our bike. It works in a different way from Brompton. It can be folded without loosening the lever, only with slight force on the rear mud guard with your hand or foot.
And also, we adopted quick release lever on the main frame and handle post, which allows a faster folding than Brompton. We wanted to invent something new and improved to make chedech unique and upgraded. You will be able to fold it faster than Brompton.
3. Android Bike: As a Brompton user, I thought that it would be convenient if parts could be exchanged with standard bike parts. With chedech, you can easily change your handle bar, saddle, brake and wheel sets, except for the rear brake, which has unique arm length. So, you can customize chedech into whatever you want, and you can even make it even lighter if you so desire.
4. Different Size: It looks similar, but it has a totally different size and shape in all details. It’s a carbon one, and that does not allow 90 degree angle in all parts — it’s more roundish. The main frame is thicker. The wheel set is 18 inch, and you can easily upgrade it with other normal mini-velo wheel set. So, I just adopted the folding method, which has been open to the public since 1999.
5. Carbon Feeling: If you are a Brompton user, then you will immediately notice that our bike does not feel like a Brompton. It is light and fast, and it absorbs impact. It is more similar to a carbon road bike. I am now conducting test rides, and people are confirming this factor.
When I think about your comments, I know you are cherishing Brompton. I also admire Brompton. But I was not completely satisfied with my Brompton, and I think some of you might feel the same way. The only difference is that I was crazy enough to endeavor three years in search of the ultimate folding bike!
Some bike business people I know are saying that I should be worried about another copy bike of chedech, but I am not. I know that if they want to produce one-lined carbon bike as chedech, then they have to go through the same trials I did, but still they will not be sure they could make it.
The folding bike market is not warm place. I know that, and I don’t want to beg your favor. That will be an insult to my bike, chedech.
But we are all bike riders, sharing the same joy and feelings from riding. Please think about this . . . One day, if you happen to think about making a bike you really want to ride, then you will be in the same place where I began this project. This can happen to any biker.
So, please, regard me as one of you. I did not have a bike company before I started this insane project, and now I have gone through a great deal to produce something special. I did not build this with money, but with a dream, sweat, and also with a crazy zeal. I sincerely hope you will view our bike in a different light.
With thanks, Oscar of chedech.0 -
I think the talk of Brompton is just because this is a British site. I live in Australia and over here Bromptons are almost unheard of. Dahons and Birdy's are the most common here.
Some of the comments on this thread make me wonder if the forum members work for Brompton. LOL0 -
I think the talk of Brompton is just because this is a British site. I live in Australia and over here Bromptons are almost unheard of. Dahons and Birdy's are the most common here.
Some of the comments on this thread make me wonder if the forum members work for Brompton. LOL
I do not work for Brompton.0 -
Ho ho ho :roll:I think the talk of Brompton is just because this is a British site. I live in Australia and over here Bromptons are almost unheard of. Dahons and Birdy's are the most common here.
Some of the comments on this thread make me wonder if the forum members work for Brompton. LOL
No, but we do have a number of Brompton owners and a double Brompton World Champion in our midst.
In fact, send one of the models over for Issy / Green Brompton to test, see if the world champ can make it sing. It'd be good advertising if she were to embarrass the city boys on one of your bikes :twisted:0 -
I think the talk of Brompton is just because this is a British site. I live in Australia and over here Bromptons are almost unheard of. Dahons and Birdy's are the most common here.
Some of the comments on this thread make me wonder if the forum members work for Brompton. LOL
Perhaps responding to some specific criticisms (like your bike's fundamental lack of practicality for commuting due to its inability to take full length mudguards, its lack of luggage carrying abilities, and inability to take the normal knocks that are part of the rough and tumble of a commuter bike), rather than just jumping up and down and shouting 'you must work for the enemy!' might give you a little more credibility?1938 Hobbs Tandem
1956 Carlton Flyer Path/Track
1960 Mercian Superlight Track
1974 Pete Luxton Path/Track*
1980 Harry Hall
1986 Dawes Galaxy
1988 Jack Taylor Tourer
1988 Pearson
1989 Condor
1993 Dawes Hybrid
2016 Ridley Helium SL
*Currently on this0 -
I think the talk of Brompton is just because this is a British site. I live in Australia and over here Bromptons are almost unheard of. Dahons and Birdy's are the most common here.
Some of the comments on this thread make me wonder if the forum members work for Brompton. LOL
Perhaps responding to some specific criticisms (like your bike's fundamental lack of practicality for commuting due to its inability to take full length mudguards, its lack of luggage carrying abilities, and inability to take the normal knocks that are part of the rough and tumble of a commuter bike), rather than just jumping up and down and shouting 'you must work for the enemy!' might give you a little more credibility?
To be fair, there are plenty of carbon commuters around that survive just fine, I don't see a problem there. Don't think we've seen any weights listed yet so no clue if it actually has saved any meaningful amount.
The unnecessary suspension, half arsed mudguards and lack of luggage etc though are fair points.
And certainly the last thing an aspiring brand wants to do is accuse their target market of being shills for the competition
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To be fair, there are plenty of carbon commuters around that survive just fine, I don't see a problem there. Don't think we've seen any weights listed yet so no clue if it actually has saved any meaningful amount.
The unnecessary suspension, half arsed mudguards and lack of luggage etc though are fair points.
And certainly the last thing an aspiring brand wants to do is accuse their target market of being shills for the competition
No excuse for the lack of mudguard mounting, but no rack is reasonable on a carbon bike. Carbon doesn't respond well to the point-loads that racks create. I can foresee a range of frame bags if it's successful. I know that carbon can be plenty tough (the Santa Cruz video is a fine example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xreZdUBqpJs), so that wouldn't worry me too much, though.0 -
I disagree. So long as rack mounting points are designed into the frame, it's as easy to do with carbon as any other material. Just look at carbon masts on sailing boats, which are held up by a bunch of wires and other fittings attached at discrete points. The fixing points would generally be designed slightly differently to those used on a metal frame, but it's no harder to do.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19698771#p19698771]UndercoverElephant[/url] wrote:No excuse for the lack of mudguard mounting, but no rack is reasonable on a carbon bike. Carbon doesn't respond well to the point-loads that racks create.
If the geometry is as similar to the Brompton as it looks, the biggest issue with a rack is that any amount of luggage will make a tail-heavy bike even more so (even without luggage I often find myself doing unintentional wheelies off the lights). If I were designing this, I'd take a look at whether I could replicate the Brompton luggage attachment without infringing any patents, copyright etc.
One issue I have with my (heavily-modified) Brompton is that the bull-horn bars compromise the fold. If this bike is intended to be used with a range of 3rd party handlebars, it would be well worth considering a quick release stem fitting that allows bars to be rotated when folding the bike.
Like the others said, lack of proper mudguards is a complete deal-breaker for a commuting bike that will be used in UK conditions.Pannier, 120rpm.0 -
Carbon as a material will be fine I'm sure, MTB cope so a folding bike should assuming competent engineering.
Since it's being compared to the Brompton, bare bromptons (ie with out panniers/Dynamo etc) are 9kg ish, and with a similar riding postion ie (air resistance ) bar a slightly larger wheel size. Claims on being faster are seem wishful rather than prove able.
This is a fast folder http://airnimal.eu/products/chameleon/performance-sport/#.Ve_-ccR4WrU
I wish you luck but just being carbon will not make it faster/lighter/comftable etc.
If your going to have suspension would the forks not be a better place, less pedal bob etc?0 -
Carbon as a material will be fine I'm sure, MTB cope so a folding bike should assuming competent engineering.
Since it's being compared to the Brompton, bare bromptons (ie with out panniers/Dynamo etc) are 9kg ish, and with a similar riding postion ie (air resistance ) bar a slightly larger wheel size. Claims on being faster are seem wishful rather than prove able.
This is a fast folder http://airnimal.eu/products/chameleon/performance-sport/#.Ve_-ccR4WrU
I wish you luck but just being carbon will not make it faster/lighter/comftable etc.
If your going to have suspension would the forks not be a better place, less pedal bob etc?
From here http://chedech.com/?page_id=15410All the major parts are made of carbon fiber, and that leads to a comparatively lightweight bike. For example, our five-speed model is only 9kg (without pedal) and the single speed model is a mere 8kg.
Add the pedals (which I guess are pretty essential!), and you're looking at an all up weight of about 9.4kg for the 5 speed Chedech1938 Hobbs Tandem
1956 Carlton Flyer Path/Track
1960 Mercian Superlight Track
1974 Pete Luxton Path/Track*
1980 Harry Hall
1986 Dawes Galaxy
1988 Jack Taylor Tourer
1988 Pearson
1989 Condor
1993 Dawes Hybrid
2016 Ridley Helium SL
*Currently on this0 -
I think there is a little bit of bias on here about this. Personally, I think fair play to them for trying to come up with something - even if it closely resembles a Brompton. It's not good to stifle everything, as that just limits creativity. I'm also pretty sure that if Brompton deem it to be infringing on any intellectual property, they have the resources to look after themselves; they've done it before.
Ultimately the market will decide it's success.Shand Skinnymalinky
Argon 18 Radon0 -
Some of the comments on this thread make me wonder if the forum members work for Brompton. LOL
To be fair to everyone here, Brompton is the defacto folding commuter bike in the UK, and as most people on this forum (as far as I can tell) are from the UK, it's only natural for them to compare your product to the Brompton.Shand Skinnymalinky
Argon 18 Radon0 -
How easy would it be to fix a puncture?
I don't own a Brompton, but gather it can be a bugger when the PF visits, especially on the rear.0 -
Some of the comments on this thread make me wonder if the forum members work for Brompton. LOL
To be fair to everyone here, Brompton is the defacto folding commuter bike in the UK, and as most people on this forum (as far as I can tell) are from the UK, it's only natural for them to compare your product to the Brompton.
Fair enough! It's also understandable for folding bike riders to have extra pride in a product from home. Brompton is the big player in the folding bike market, and just about any bike that folds will be compared to them. They are the standard by which others are compared and rightfully so! They earned it! chedech has certainly been inspired by Brompton, but it's also different. chedech was conceived and designed for riders who wished they had a bike like Brompton, but with a carbon frame, android parts, and some other features. If I were physically stronger and didn't mind arriving to work with a little sweat, I'd probably stick to a Brompton. It's built like a tank and is reliable! Sadly, I have neck issues, and I work closely with people. I need to arrive to work feeling fresh. Therefore, having the lightest folder is what I'm after. If you are like me, chedech might be worth further investigation.0 -
How easy would it be to fix a puncture?
I'm not sure . . . never had to, but I'll find out and get back to you! ;-)0 -
If I were physically stronger and didn't mind arriving to work with a little sweat, I'd probably stick to a Brompton. It's built like a tank and is reliable! Sadly, I have neck issues, and I work closely with people. I need to arrive to work feeling fresh. Therefore, having the lightest folder is what I'm after. If you are like me, chedech might be worth further investigation.
Hmm, I think you're overplaying the weight savings here.
You said yours was about 8.5kg.
A Brompton starts at 10kg.
Also, with the lack of mounting points/rack then you'll be wearing a backpack so you'll arrive with a sweaty back and probably the weight of the backpack will give you further back problems :twisted:
No need to invent a bad back/neck etc for the sake of 1.5kg 0
