Going Anaerobic
Dizzy12
Posts: 24
Hi All,
I've noticed that during rides outside (TT, club runs and sportives) I very rarely go anaerobic. However, I do and can go anaerobic when I'm pushing hard on the turbo trainer.
I've tried experimenting with different cadences. Even when trying to hold 100-110rpm, I get faster, but I don't go anaerobic.
I'm currently experimenting with cadences and am going to buy a power meter to do some more scientific testing. A few people have said that it's harder to push top-end, zone 5, outside because the body is stabilising the bike and dealing with forces so not all of the power goes to the pedals; however, all of the power goes to the pedals on a trainer as it's being held up and this allows you to push harder.
I've also tried to do a 20min test both indoors and outside and my numbers are very different. Anyone else experience this? Is this normal?
I've noticed that during rides outside (TT, club runs and sportives) I very rarely go anaerobic. However, I do and can go anaerobic when I'm pushing hard on the turbo trainer.
I've tried experimenting with different cadences. Even when trying to hold 100-110rpm, I get faster, but I don't go anaerobic.
I'm currently experimenting with cadences and am going to buy a power meter to do some more scientific testing. A few people have said that it's harder to push top-end, zone 5, outside because the body is stabilising the bike and dealing with forces so not all of the power goes to the pedals; however, all of the power goes to the pedals on a trainer as it's being held up and this allows you to push harder.
I've also tried to do a 20min test both indoors and outside and my numbers are very different. Anyone else experience this? Is this normal?
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Comments
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I thought the same, that i can't get my max heart rate on the flat.
Then i did some crits and it turned out it is possible!
If you don't want to race then try to ride a chaingang with the racers in your club, that should do it!
It may also have to do with your position. On a turbo or on a climb i tend to have a more upright position, which helps with breathing and increases power (but may be slower on a flat road)
It also comes down to bike handling and not coasting just because you are going fast.0 -
Hi All,
I've noticed that during rides outside (TT, club runs and sportives) I very rarely go anaerobic. However, I do and can go anaerobic when I'm pushing hard on the turbo trainer.
I've tried experimenting with different cadences. Even when trying to hold 100-110rpm, I get faster, but I don't go anaerobic.
I'm currently experimenting with cadences and am going to buy a power meter to do some more scientific testing. A few people have said that it's harder to push top-end, zone 5, outside because the body is stabilising the bike and dealing with forces so not all of the power goes to the pedals; however, all of the power goes to the pedals on a trainer as it's being held up and this allows you to push harder.
I've also tried to do a 20min test both indoors and outside and my numbers are very different. Anyone else experience this? Is this normal?
You say you don't have a power meter or the ability to measure cadence. What statistics are you recording and how have you determined what your anaerobic level is?
If your are riding a time trial then I'd argue that you don't want to be riding anaerobic and in stead you want to keep your effort consistent throughout the ride.
On a group ride you will hit anaerobic less than on a tough solo ride. This is because the effort it takes to follow a wheel is far less than what is required when you're at the front. You're only likely therefore to go anaerobic if you do large short full out efforts on the front or when you are climbing up hills fast - apart from this, on a group ride you'll sent most of your effort at or below threshold.0 -
On a group ride you will hit anaerobic less than on a tough solo ride. This is because the effort it takes to follow a wheel is far less than what is required when you're at the front. You're only likely therefore to go anaerobic if you do large short full out efforts on the front or when you are climbing up hills fast - apart from this, on a group ride you'll sent most of your effort at or below threshold.
Really depends how hard your group ride is... I will hit my limit a few in a hard chaingang if the other people are at a similar level to me (or slightly better). But obviously if it's just a casual ride for cake then I won't...
Trying to sprint up short climbs outdoors normally gets me to the max, or trying to follow people faster than myself on climbs. But on the flat, on my own, it's pretty rare.0 -
Hi All,
I've noticed that during rides outside (TT, club runs and sportives) I very rarely go anaerobic. However, I do and can go anaerobic when I'm pushing hard on the turbo trainer.
I've tried experimenting with different cadences. Even when trying to hold 100-110rpm, I get faster, but I don't go anaerobic.
I'm currently experimenting with cadences and am going to buy a power meter to do some more scientific testing. A few people have said that it's harder to push top-end, zone 5, outside because the body is stabilising the bike and dealing with forces so not all of the power goes to the pedals; however, all of the power goes to the pedals on a trainer as it's being held up and this allows you to push harder.
I've also tried to do a 20min test both indoors and outside and my numbers are very different. Anyone else experience this? Is this normal?
How do you know your indoor and outdoor numbers without a PM?English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
Perhaps it might help if you explain what you mean by "go anaerobic".Hi All,
I've noticed that during rides outside (TT, club runs and sportives) I very rarely go anaerobic. However, I do and can go anaerobic when I'm pushing hard on the turbo trainer.
We can and do begin to draw upon anaerobic metabolic pathways to support the energy demand dominantly supply via aerobic metabolism. IOW when riding we use anaerobic metabolism to help with supply of energy required for short term forays above our "threshold" level, i.e. a level at which we can supply the energy demand wholly from aerobic metabolism.
So in that sense, a short punchy effort when accelerating, or a hard effort up a shorter climb for example will inevitably involve drawing upon anaerobic metabolic reserves to support aerobic metabolic energy supply. You may not realise it at the time, because things like breathing rate and heart rate are lag indicators, but often an effort that taxes anaerobic metabolism is completed well before things like breathing rate and HR have had a chance to catch up, and indeed when they do it's to support aerobic processes involved in the recovery of anaerobic energy reserves.
I suspect what you might mean is you find it difficult to ride at/near VO2max inducing levels, which involve, after a couple of minutes, very hard breathing, a strong lift in HR, and are not sustainable for more than a handful or so of minutes at a time. Yes such efforts involve anaerobic metabolism, but they are still dominantly aerobic efforts (e.g. a 4-minute maximal effort will have ~75% of energy demand supplied by aerobic metabolism). And yes, if you have not done such efforts much for a long time, it can indeed be hard to transition to such efforts. However it's not about the bike's stability, but rather simply a training adaptation that can take a week or two to get used to.
These are also very difficult efforts to pace well without power guidance, or speed / pace guidance in benign conditions like a velodrome or an indoor trainer. Perceived effort and HR change a lot during such efforts and as such they are not particularly useful guides.
As to differences in power on indoor trainer v outdoors, that's multifactoral:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2009/01/turbocharged-training.html0 -
If you WANT to go anaerobic, do any club rides that are usually fairly hard but ride a single gear - something fairly high that makes you have to pedal faster than your usual average cadence to keep up on the flat if the pace goes up - you'll soon go anaerobic.0
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It's power demand that primarily dictates the need for anaerobic metabolic energy supply, not gearing.If you WANT to go anaerobic, do any club rides that are usually fairly hard but ride a single gear - something fairly high that makes you have to pedal faster than your usual average cadence to keep up on the flat if the pace goes up - you'll soon go anaerobic.
All one needs do is to ride maximally hard for 15 seconds to a minute or so. Recover and repeat. Go hard, puke, recover, go again and then go home. That's going anaerobic.0 -
Hi All,
I've noticed that during rides outside (TT, club runs and sportives) I very rarely go anaerobic. However, I do and can go anaerobic when I'm pushing hard on the turbo trainer.
I've tried experimenting with different cadences. Even when trying to hold 100-110rpm, I get faster, but I don't go anaerobic.
Cool - so how long can you keep up the 110 rpm then ? Unlimited I guess ?0 -
I don't really understand what you mean by 'anaerobic' if you never go anaerobic when riding outside. All you have to do is sprint for a couple of seconds, or punch it on a climb and you'll go anaerobic immediately.
If you can't do that, then either your definition differers from mine or there's something wrong...
Aerobic activity (the vast majority of all respiration) use oxygen to oxidise chemicals (usually sugar or fat molecules) which releases 'energy' in the form of ATP- the universal energy ticket of cells. Without ATP you'll get into plight pretty quick (all cyanide does is stop ATP production).
When you start working above a certain intensity, your blood supply can no longer transport enough oxygen to cells to fuel all respiration aerobically, so it starts anaerobic production of ATP. This is less efficient, as you produce less ATP per fuel molecule, and lactic acid is produced as a by product.
Even in a 10 mile TT the ideal pace is slightly above your lactate threshold (when you start anaerobic activity) so you generate as much energy as possible over the distance.0 -
One can sustain higher cadences for a very long time. e.g. one of my clients set a world masters hour record with a cadence of 113rpm. Anaerobic metabolic energy contribution would represent less than 2% of his total energy demand.Hi All,
I've noticed that during rides outside (TT, club runs and sportives) I very rarely go anaerobic. However, I do and can go anaerobic when I'm pushing hard on the turbo trainer.
I've tried experimenting with different cadences. Even when trying to hold 100-110rpm, I get faster, but I don't go anaerobic.
Cool - so how long can you keep up the 110 rpm then ? Unlimited I guess ?
Again, it not cadence per se that drives the mix of anaerobic/aerobic energy contribution so much as the energy demand, which is primarily a function of the power you are riding at.
Yes, at higher cadences, efficiency does fall a bit, meaning that metabolic energy demand increases a little for the same power output, but it's power output (or more correctly relative power output) that primarily determines how "anaerobic" an effort is.
Any effort that lasts more than about a minute or so will be dominantly aerobic in nature.
That's because:
i. the amount of energy available for release via anaerobic metabolic pathways is pretty limited (e.g. a range of 8-30kJ is pretty typical for cyclists)
ii. recovery of used anaerobic energy capacity is itself a wholly aerobic process, and is a far slower process than the release of such energy capacity, hence one can only use, top up and reuse anaerobic capacity so much in any one session (indeed it's one's aerobic fitness that determines this repeatability).
iii. if it's a sub-maximal effort then anaerobic energy demand is reduced further0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19680214#p19680214]Alex_Simmons/RST[/url] wrote:
One can sustain higher cadences for a very long time. e.g. one of my clients set a world masters hour record with a cadence of 113rpm. Anaerobic metabolic energy contribution would represent less than 2% of his total energy demand.Hi All,
I've noticed that during rides outside (TT, club runs and sportives) I very rarely go anaerobic. However, I do and can go anaerobic when I'm pushing hard on the turbo trainer.
I've tried experimenting with different cadences. Even when trying to hold 100-110rpm, I get faster, but I don't go anaerobic.
Cool - so how long can you keep up the 110 rpm then ? Unlimited I guess ?
Again, it not cadence per se that drives the mix of anaerobic/aerobic energy contribution so much as the energy demand, which is primarily a function of the power you are riding at.
Yes, at higher cadences, efficiency does fall a bit, meaning that metabolic energy demand increases a little for the same power output, but it's power output (or more correctly relative power output) that primarily determines how "anaerobic" an effort is.
Any effort that lasts more than about a minute or so will be dominantly aerobic in nature.
That's because:
i. the amount of energy available for release via anaerobic metabolic pathways is pretty limited (e.g. a range of 8-30kJ is pretty typical for cyclists)
ii. recovery of used anaerobic energy capacity is itself a wholly aerobic process, and is a far slower process than the release of such energy capacity, hence one can only use, top up and reuse anaerobic capacity so much in any one session (indeed it's one's aerobic fitness that determines this repeatability).
iii. if it's a sub-maximal effort then anaerobic energy demand is reduced further
You make some interesting points Alex. I race cross and therefore am interested in the anaerobic pathways and developing my capacity in this regard. Clearly your points (i) and (ii) above speak to the areas I most want to tap into when trying to maximise my return on investment in training terms. I have experimented with various sprint and Tabata protocols to try and develop both the frequency and the number of 'matches' available for a 40-60 minute race, and I am interested in your view as to whether there is more mileage to be had in pushing the frequency of repeatability by shortening rests between intervals, or the number of matches (and perhaps the brightness with which they burn) by having longer rests and focusing on the quality of individual sprints.
I appreciate your answer might be in the 'it depends' category, but for a fairly experienced rider with a puncheur power profile and not a lot of extra FTP growth potential, would you agree that it's a better investment to focus on repeatability? Or are there hard limits on replenishments of the ATP pathways that cannot be usefully expanded beyond a certain fairly limited point?0 -
I think the answer will be in the "it depends" category and require far more specific investigation than a general answer can provide. In terms of investment, as a rule of thumb, improving aerobic abilities with race specific abilities layered on top is a very good approach, but there are several ways to skin said training cat.0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19680460#p19680460]Alex_Simmons/RST[/url] wrote:I think the answer will be in the "it depends" category and require far more specific investigation than a general answer can provide. In terms of investment, as a rule of thumb, improving aerobic abilities with race specific abilities layered on top is a very good approach, but there are several ways to skin said training cat.
I get that Alex, and I appreciate why you might not want to get too specific with coaching advice on a public forum as well. I am, however, more interested in discussing the mechanisms of the anaerobic pathways and their adaptability to training stress - if that is something you are willing to discuss?0 -
Well quite simply, the shorter the recovery interval, the more you push a session towards a focus on aerobic abilities, whereas long recoveries pushes a session more towards development of neuromuscular power and anaerobic capacity.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19680460#p19680460]Alex_Simmons/RST[/url] wrote:I think the answer will be in the "it depends" category and require far more specific investigation than a general answer can provide. In terms of investment, as a rule of thumb, improving aerobic abilities with race specific abilities layered on top is a very good approach, but there are several ways to skin said training cat.
I get that Alex, and I appreciate why you might not want to get too specific with coaching advice on a public forum as well. I am, however, more interested in discussing the mechanisms of the anaerobic pathways and their adaptability to training stress - if that is something you are willing to discuss?
So it comes down to which elements of your physiological development have priority, and structure efforts accordingly. If it's repeatability, then push more towards aerobic development. If you need deeper anaerobic capacity, then permit yourself more recovery between efforts. If it's ability to burn a match faster, then include more neuromuscular power development (and a LOT of recovery).
Of course training adaptations are on a continuum, so there is plenty of grey area and it means you can achieve similar outcomes in many and varied ways.
Hence I also suggest people factor in things like the nature of training they can do given various constraints, e.g. if on a trainer then some sessions are more suitable than others (can't really do neuromuscular work on a trainer), the type of terrain they have to train on, whether on long uninterrupted country roads or in the city, at a track, on trails etc, plus keep an element of fun with sessions (no point doing lots or riding you don't enjoy), and do things that match/replicate the demands of the goal event(s).0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19681113#p19681113]Alex_Simmons/RST[/url] wrote:
Well quite simply, the shorter the recovery interval, the more you push a session towards a focus on aerobic abilities, whereas long recoveries pushes a session more towards development of neuromuscular power and anaerobic capacity.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19680460#p19680460]Alex_Simmons/RST[/url] wrote:I think the answer will be in the "it depends" category and require far more specific investigation than a general answer can provide. In terms of investment, as a rule of thumb, improving aerobic abilities with race specific abilities layered on top is a very good approach, but there are several ways to skin said training cat.
I get that Alex, and I appreciate why you might not want to get too specific with coaching advice on a public forum as well. I am, however, more interested in discussing the mechanisms of the anaerobic pathways and their adaptability to training stress - if that is something you are willing to discuss?
So it comes down to which elements of your physiological development have priority, and structure efforts accordingly. If it's repeatability, then push more towards aerobic development. If you need deeper anaerobic capacity, then permit yourself more recovery between efforts. If it's ability to burn a match faster, then include more neuromuscular power development (and a LOT of recovery).
Of course training adaptations are on a continuum, so there is plenty of grey area and it means you can achieve similar outcomes in many and varied ways.
Hence I also suggest people factor in things like the nature of training they can do given various constraints, e.g. if on a trainer then some sessions are more suitable than others (can't really do neuromuscular work on a trainer), the type of terrain they have to train on, whether on long uninterrupted country roads or in the city, at a track, on trails etc, plus keep an element of fun with sessions (no point doing lots or riding you don't enjoy), and do things that match/replicate the demands of the goal event(s).
Thanks for this. My take home from this is that there is similar scope for development on both sides of the equation, and that the impact isn't always in just the direction intended.
You mention a LOT of recovery for the neuromuscular efforts - do you mean between intervals or post workout? I have in the past tried (and regretted) doing mid-week Tabata and sprint blocks on three consecutive days, with races on both weekend days and just Monday and Friday recovery. I now know that is too much intensity for me, as I fatigued despite Performance Manager telling me I should be fine. I get the feeling that relying on Performance Manager to inform the stress balance from these types of workouts can be misleading.0 -
Well adaptations are on a continuum.Thanks for this. My take home from this is that there is similar scope for development on both sides of the equation, and that the impact isn't always in just the direction intended.
BothYou mention a LOT of recovery for the neuromuscular efforts - do you mean between intervals or post workout?
PMC gives you a view of the forest, but it's not designed to show you the trees or branches.I have in the past tried (and regretted) doing mid-week Tabata and sprint blocks on three consecutive days, with races on both weekend days and just Monday and Friday recovery. I now know that is too much intensity for me, as I fatigued despite Performance Manager telling me I should be fine. I get the feeling that relying on Performance Manager to inform the stress balance from these types of workouts can be misleading.
That's why composition of training also matters, not just broader measures of training stress.0
