MTB pedals + shoes on road bike?
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19663523#p19663523]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:The fact that clipless pedals or clips and straps keep your feet on the pedals is the reason to use them. It just doesn't increase the amount of power you produce for a given effort (again, I thought that was obvious). In general you just shouldn't be yanking on the pedals.
You've never had your pedal stoke analysed, have you? The best pedal action produces power evenly around the entire circle of the stroke.
Nope. The best pedal action is the one which produces the most power. There are studies which show that elite riders produce more power simply by pushing the pedals harder. Who knew? Human legs aren't really designed to 'pull up' or produce power throughout the pedal stroke'. Most of that is discredited marketing bullsh1t.0 -
You've never had your pedal stoke analysed, have you? The best pedal action produces power evenly around the entire circle of the stroke.
Surely even the pros dont achieve this? They may strive to but perfection is probably unrealistic - thats why they introduced oval rings to even things out as much as possible.
It isn't possible to apply power evenly throughout the stroke, and if it were, you certainly wouldn't want to use an asymmetric chainring. The idea essentially is that you have a bigger gear in the most powerful phase of the stroke and a smaller one to get the pedal through the back of the stroke as efficiently as possible - rather the opposite concept, and if you watch the pro riders, you'll find that's what they do, whatever their choice of chainring.0 -
Some cyclists have good technique.
Some cyclists simply mash on the pedals in awe of their own power.
Only one of the groups will feel good after 100 miles.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Some cyclists have good technique.
Some cyclists simply mash on the pedals in awe of their own power.
Only one of the groups will feel good after 100 miles.
Is it the group with the best fitness?0 -
People with a £60 velcro MTB shoe/pedal set up would love to feel its as good as a £500 super light/stiff/conected, well engineered axle, double latest multi rotational and pop to undo Boa gig, but thats pure b0ll0cks.
If you don't agree, then spend your £440 on something you do like. Simples (squeak).
Boas? Or Velcro? Hmm, I'd wager the Giro Prolight to be fairly good. Ditto my laced Empire SLX.
Mind, I was only using them with 105 carbon pedals today. You should feel the drag
Seriously though, I've been running with Sidi Drako and Ritchey MTB pedals. Today the switch to Empire SLX and SPD-SL.
Better? Reluctantly yes. For the rides that take place right now, in the summer, on the good bike. Have to say that, today, I felt fresher than I normally did. Could have gone all day. Not felt like that recently but could be very much a case of the Emperor's new shoes.......My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
Facebook? No. Just say no.0 -
Assume similar fitness, similar bikes on the same route, same day, together.Some cyclists have good technique.
Some cyclists simply mash on the pedals in awe of their own power.
Only one of the groups will feel good after 100 miles.
Is it the group with the best fitness?
I know. I used to be a masher.
Good technique uses a circular motion.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Assume similar fitness, similar bikes on the same route, same day, together.Some cyclists have good technique.
Some cyclists simply mash on the pedals in awe of their own power.
Only one of the groups will feel good after 100 miles.
Is it the group with the best fitness?
I know. I used to be a masher.
Good technique uses a circular motion.
Similar fitness = similar power output? If so, there will be no difference. Sustainable power gets you up climbs, not pedal technique. Say it ain't so...0 -
One hill, yes.
Assume similar fitness, similar bikes on the same route, same day, together.Some cyclists have good technique.
Some cyclists simply mash on the pedals in awe of their own power.
Only one of the groups will feel good after 100 miles.
Is it the group with the best fitness?
I know. I used to be a masher.
Good technique uses a circular motion.
Similar fitness = similar power output? If so, there will be no difference. Sustainable power gets you up climbs, not pedal technique. Say it ain't so...
Two hills maybe.
It gets harder after that and fatigue sets in. Say it ain't so.....
Look at Le Tour. Who is mashing? None. And those out of the saddle are lagging.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Lol - nobody is suggesting 'mashing' - but your argument for a circular pedal technique is pretty weak. Pros are faster cos they push the pedals harder (and for longer) than us - that is all.0
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May I suggest simply trying it?Lol - nobody is suggesting 'mashing' - but your argument for a circular pedal technique is pretty weak. Pros are faster cos they push the pedals harder (and for longer) than us - that is all.
The main weak point is usually the 11 to 3 o'clock. Focus on a circular motion following through the 12 o'clock position.
What do you have to lose?
Either way, I am happier with a circular motion which is far easier to do clipless or with straps than simply pushing down on the pedals. After all, what motion do the pedals have?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19663523#p19663523]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:The fact that clipless pedals or clips and straps keep your feet on the pedals is the reason to use them. It just doesn't increase the amount of power you produce for a given effort (again, I thought that was obvious). In general you just shouldn't be yanking on the pedals.
You've never had your pedal stoke analysed, have you? The best pedal action produces power evenly around the entire circle of the stroke.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19663576#p19663576]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Does it?
Yes. I had my pedal action plotted on a Wattbike at the National Cycle Show a couple of years back, and I nearly achieved an hourglass pattern, with an asymmetric dip on the left downward power stroke. This indicated work I had to do on the turbo to correct this. They also had plots obtained from professional riders, which were nigh-on circular.To err is human, but to make a real balls up takes a super computer.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19663523#p19663523]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:The fact that clipless pedals or clips and straps keep your feet on the pedals is the reason to use them. It just doesn't increase the amount of power you produce for a given effort (again, I thought that was obvious). In general you just shouldn't be yanking on the pedals.
You've never had your pedal stoke analysed, have you? The best pedal action produces power evenly around the entire circle of the stroke.
Nope. The best pedal action is the one which produces the most power. There are studies which show that elite riders produce more power simply by pushing the pedals harder. Who knew? Human legs aren't really designed to 'pull up' or produce power throughout the pedal stroke'. Most of that is discredited marketing bullsh1t.
Riding isn't purely about producing maximum power, it's also about endurance. By spreading the force application to the pedals across the down stroke, the pull back, the up-stroke and the forward push, the workload is shared between more muscles than using the down stroke alone. Those applying force only in the down stroke will fatigue more rapidly than those pedalling uniformly, hence their power will fall off and they will lose the race.
The most power generated by any one pedal phase is generated by the down stroke, but to get the maximum power it has to be accompanied by the power of the up-stroke on the opposite pedal. Some will say that all you are doing is getting the opposing foot out of the way, calling it 'unweighting' the pedal, but if that is all you are doing then you might as well get rid of the ridged connection between your foot and the pedal.To err is human, but to make a real balls up takes a super computer.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19663523#p19663523]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:The fact that clipless pedals or clips and straps keep your feet on the pedals is the reason to use them. It just doesn't increase the amount of power you produce for a given effort (again, I thought that was obvious). In general you just shouldn't be yanking on the pedals.
You've never had your pedal stoke analysed, have you? The best pedal action produces power evenly around the entire circle of the stroke.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19663576#p19663576]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Does it?
Yes. I had my pedal action plotted on a Wattbike at the National Cycle Show a couple of years back, and I nearly achieved an hourglass pattern, with an asymmetric dip on the left downward power stroke. This indicated work I had to do on the turbo to correct this. They also had plots obtained from professional riders, which were nigh-on circular.
Wattbike only guesses those plots. It is not an accurate representation of what your legs/feet are doing, because it doesn't measure left/right power independently. So what you think you know - you don't.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19663523#p19663523]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:The fact that clipless pedals or clips and straps keep your feet on the pedals is the reason to use them. It just doesn't increase the amount of power you produce for a given effort (again, I thought that was obvious). In general you just shouldn't be yanking on the pedals.
You've never had your pedal stoke analysed, have you? The best pedal action produces power evenly around the entire circle of the stroke.
Nope. The best pedal action is the one which produces the most power. There are studies which show that elite riders produce more power simply by pushing the pedals harder. Who knew? Human legs aren't really designed to 'pull up' or produce power throughout the pedal stroke'. Most of that is discredited marketing bullsh1t.
Riding isn't purely about producing maximum power, it's also about endurance. By spreading the force application to the pedals across the down stroke, the pull back, the up-stroke and the forward push, the workload is shared between more muscles than using the down stroke alone. Those applying force only in the down stroke will fatigue more rapidly than those pedalling uniformly, hence their power will fall off and they will lose the race.
The most power generated by any one pedal phase is generated by the down stroke, but to get the maximum power it has to be accompanied by the power of the up-stroke on the opposite pedal. Some will say that all you are doing is getting the opposing foot out of the way, calling it 'unweighting' the pedal, but if that is all you are doing then you might as well get rid of the ridged connection between your foot and the pedal.
If you have any independent evidence of that (not Wattbike graphs), let's see it.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19663523#p19663523]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:The fact that clipless pedals or clips and straps keep your feet on the pedals is the reason to use them. It just doesn't increase the amount of power you produce for a given effort (again, I thought that was obvious). In general you just shouldn't be yanking on the pedals.
You've never had your pedal stoke analysed, have you? The best pedal action produces power evenly around the entire circle of the stroke.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19663576#p19663576]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Does it?
Yes. I had my pedal action plotted on a Wattbike at the National Cycle Show a couple of years back, and I nearly achieved an hourglass pattern, with an asymmetric dip on the left downward power stroke. This indicated work I had to do on the turbo to correct this. They also had plots obtained from professional riders, which were nigh-on circular.
A few minutes spent on a Wattbike is insufficient to draw any conclusions, except possibly that you're a bit impressionable.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19664791#p19664791]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:
A few minutes spent on a Wattbike is insufficient to draw any conclusions, except possibly that you're a bit impressionable.
The trace from the Wattbike was clear and consistant and it confirmed what I already knew from consultation with Dr Garry Palmer of Sportstest. He runs a Kingcycle setup. Please don't pretend that you know more than he does on the subject.To err is human, but to make a real balls up takes a super computer.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19664791#p19664791]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:
A few minutes spent on a Wattbike is insufficient to draw any conclusions, except possibly that you're a bit impressionable.
The trace from the Wattbike was clear and consistant and it confirmed what I already knew from consultation with Dr Garry Palmer of Sportstest. He runs a Kingcycle setup. Please don't pretend that you know more than he does on the subject.
Like I said - Wattbike does not give you independent left/right power analysis - and neither does a Kingcycle, which is effectively just a turbo trainer. Your claims (ie your beliefs) are completely without foundation. As I said before - what you think you know - you don't.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19664791#p19664791]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Imposter wrote:[url=<span class= wrote:Sirius631[/url]"][url=<span class= wrote:Simon Masterson[/url]"]
A few minutes spent on a Wattbike is insufficient to draw any conclusions, except possibly that you're a bit impressionable.
The trace from the Wattbike was clear and consistant and it confirmed what I already knew from consultation with Dr Garry Palmer of Sportstest. He runs a Kingcycle setup. Please don't pretend that you know more than he does on the subject.
Like I said - Wattbike does not give you independent left/right power analysis - and neither does a Kingcycle, which is effectively just a turbo trainer. Your claims (ie your beliefs) are completely without foundation. As I said before - what you think you know - you don't.
A few minutes spent on a Wattbike is insufficient to draw any conclusions, except possibly that you're a bit impressionable.
I find your tone insulting.
Given that the plot tied in with other findings and my own feelings, I wasn't surprised at the output, just the extent of power loss. I don't believe the equipment was psychic, nor that the staff had any agenda to create a false output.
According to this Bikeradar review, the Wattbike can give left/right power outputs. It might not, as you say, read the left/right input independently, but that does not go to say that those figures cannot be obtained by detecting how far around the stroke the cranks are.
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/accessories/resistance-trainer/product/review-wattbike-wattbike-trainer-34019/
You're right, I can't prove any of the above, but neither could Einstein prove the theory of relativity, which doesn't stop it being a widely held model of the physical reality of the universe. My beliefs on this matter are developed from my riding experience, what I hear from more widely studied experts, what I see from traces output from equipment which was developed and used by British Cycling. The only report I have seen which contradicts my belief, was a limited study with poor controls, which got part way through and contradicted itself.
In the end, I don't believe you believe what you say. Prove otherwise.To err is human, but to make a real balls up takes a super computer.0 -
You are contradicting yourself now. How can something which is unable to provide independent L/R readings give reliable L/R power outputs? Wattbike power is measured downstream of the cranks, so it simply cannot calculate power independently in the way you think it does.
Next time you're on a Wattbike - take your left foot off the pedal and keep pedalling with the right. If you were getting true left/right power/pedal stroke readings, the l/h reading should immediately drop to zero. It won't. No amount of 'confirmation bias' or 'appeals to authority' are going to change that.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19664791#p19664791]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:
A few minutes spent on a Wattbike is insufficient to draw any conclusions, except possibly that you're a bit impressionable.
The trace from the Wattbike was clear and consistant and it confirmed what I already knew from consultation with Dr Garry Palmer of Sportstest. He runs a Kingcycle setup. Please don't pretend that you know more than he does on the subject.
So basically you've used a testing methodology that cannot indicate conclusively in either direction to validate your existing viewpoint. Got it.0 -
What is it with all this testing and proving BS?
MTB shoes/pedals are fine to use on a road bike, and road shoes/pedals are not any worse (please don't ask me to prove that) so just get whatever you fancy for whatever reason you fancy it.
The non performance related reasons are enough to decide which to go for IMO.
If there is a performance/enjoyment benefit to road that you cannot feel because you cannot feel it, then its a nice bonus.
If there is a performance/enjoyment benefit to road that you cannot feel because you have not tried them, then its your loss.0 -
What is it with all this testing and proving BS?
MTB shoes/pedals are fine to use on a road bike, and road shoes/pedals are not any worse (please don't ask me to prove that) so just get whatever you fancy for whatever reason you fancy it.
The non performance related reasons are enough to decide which to go for IMO.
If there is a performance/enjoyment benefit to road that you cannot feel because you cannot feel it, then its a nice bonus.
If there is a performance/enjoyment benefit to road that you cannot feel because you have not tried them, then its your loss.
You haven't read the above exchange, have you?0 -
I just did.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19664996#p19664996]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:You haven't read the above exchange, have you?
Do you have a point? Well, one you can prove irrefutably?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I just did.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19664996#p19664996]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:You haven't read the above exchange, have you?
Do you have a point? Well, one you can prove irrefutably?
Yes, or it's pretty close, anyway.0 -
I just did.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19664996#p19664996]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:You haven't read the above exchange, have you?
Do you have a point? Well, one you can prove irrefutably?
Do you???0 -
While those two continue their petty argument, :roll: let's get back on topic:
MTB pedals + shoes on road bike? Why not.0 -
I think it's fair to say that the difference is so small (or zero) that the advantage of being able to walk easily outweighs any potential advantage of 'road' shoes.0
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I made my point but it wasn't irrefutable.
I just did.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19664996#p19664996]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:You haven't read the above exchange, have you?
Do you have a point? Well, one you can prove irrefutably?
Do you???
Simon doesn't even have a point other than saying others are wrong. Very helpful. :roll:
Mark's comment is the only worthwhile one to the OP.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0
