Anti Doping Denmark report
Comments
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I think most people know Joelsim's understanding of doping is at the level of a Roger Hargreaves book. He tries to read a lot on it obviously, but where other people admit where things are technically quickly beyond them, he chooses to paint broad stroke conclusions.
You'll never get any real in-depth stuff from him on the subject that you can't scan read from the odd condensed news driven article here and there. He has a right to draw his own conclusions though.
Let's see who is right in the fullness of time. Until then throw insults as much as you like.
I'm right though, you are going on gut feeling and lots of casual interest in it, no bad thing, but I don't think you understand much of it in depth. I'm not saying I do at all by the way but nothing you ever say seems to be backed up by much and it always seems completely obvious what articles you've read and what's influenced you.
I think a lot of casual observers on doping are the same. It's fine, but there's people on here who understand things a lot lot more who are far more informed and they don't make the kind of broad sweeping claims you do.
It isn't about any one article, it's a build of many, many articles which all suggest that there is plenty of scope to dope, and history and human nature tell us that where there is scope it will be taken in whatever field.
There are also a lot of 'more informed' people who have very different views to those you are putting forward mfin.
This forum is as far to the left as The Clinic is to the right.0 -
I think most people know Joelsim's understanding of doping is at the level of a Roger Hargreaves book. He tries to read a lot on it obviously, but where other people admit where things are technically quickly beyond them, he chooses to paint broad stroke conclusions.
You'll never get any real in-depth stuff from him on the subject that you can't scan read from the odd condensed news driven article here and there. He has a right to draw his own conclusions though.
Let's see who is right in the fullness of time. Until then throw insults as much as you like.
I'm right though, you are going on gut feeling and lots of casual interest in it, no bad thing, but I don't think you understand much of it in depth. I'm not saying I do at all by the way but nothing you ever say seems to be backed up by much and it always seems completely obvious what articles you've read and what's influenced you.
I think a lot of casual observers on doping are the same. It's fine, but there's people on here who understand things a lot lot more who are far more informed and they don't make the kind of broad sweeping claims you do.
It isn't about any one article, it's a build of many, many articles which all suggest that there is plenty of scope to dope, and history and human nature tell us that where there is scope it will be taken in whatever field.
There are also a lot of 'more informed' people who have very different views to those you are putting forward mfin.
This forum is as far to the left as The Clinic is to the right.
It's not about whether your conclusions are right or wrong (Note that I'm not even trying to say you are wrong at all), it's the fact that you don't seem to know enough about the topic for the airspace you take up with your conclusions.0 -
My favourite piece of zoomerism in this horrific doping fiasco is the steady evolution of Lance into a martyr because of the willful failure of the authorities to indict Friggins. (Obviously, the Zoomer-in-chief enabling Overlord to help himself to the Kimmage fund is a close second.)...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632635#p19632635]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:Are you calling Strava a liar?
That's just for the segment on there, there's every chance that climbing records starts its watch earlier, so to speak.
My point wasn't the time spent on the climb, it was the measurable discrepancy between the two on the same day, in the same race.
3kms shorter than the full climb, so that explains it.
As for those discrepancies, surely that is mainly down to whether riders are in the bus, or riding the climb with greater purpose?
With hindsight, I'd say Iljo Keisse was saving gas for a reason.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
You know I could say the same thing about your knowledge of the subject. Does it fill you with confidence when people like Rebellin state 'I'm subject to the same testing as everyone else' whilst refusing to deny doping? That Valverde still won't condemn doping? That Contador still thinks he has won 3 Giri? That Visconti and Rojas have been emailing Ferrari Jr about training well after the introduction of the passport? That Lance didn't dope in 2009? That an absolutely ridiculous percentage of riders have asthma and/or thyroid problems? That there are miraculous recoveries happening towards the end of Grand Tours? Blah blah.0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632681#p19632681]Blazing Saddles[/url] wrote:[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632635#p19632635]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:Are you calling Strava a liar?
That's just for the segment on there, there's every chance that climbing records starts its watch earlier, so to speak.
My point wasn't the time spent on the climb, it was the measurable discrepancy between the two on the same day, in the same race.
3kms shorter than the full climb, so that explains it.
As for those discrepancies, surely that is mainly down to whether riders are in the bus, or riding the climb with greater purpose?
With hindsight, I'd say Iljo Keisse was saving gas for a reason.
I picked Iljo not only because he's the best, but because he said he had a hard time on it. I don't reckon that saving gas alone loses you half an hour in 20km."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
You know I could say the same thing about your knowledge of the subject. Does it fill you with confidence when people like Rebellin state 'I'm subject to the same testing as everyone else' whilst refusing to deny doping? That Valverde still won't condemn doping? That Contador still thinks he has won 3 Giri? That Visconti and Rojas have been emailing Ferrari Jr about training well after the introduction of the passport? That Lance didn't dope in 2009? That an absolutely ridiculous percentage of riders have asthma and/or thyroid problems? That there are miraculous recoveries happening towards the end of Grand Tours? Blah blah.
These are the ones that are meaningless. I don't require constant public self flagellation of my ex dopers. I probably wont cheer for them, but how do you know that Valverde isn't just pissed off that he was the one Spanish rider to take the fall for Puerto and now instructs all his young teamies to do it properly?
You're allowing emotion to replace analysis."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Valverde is next in line for rehabilitation. He'll retire a folk hero. 'For sticking it to the man.'...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632702#p19632702]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:You know I could say the same thing about your knowledge of the subject. Does it fill you with confidence when people like Rebellin state 'I'm subject to the same testing as everyone else' whilst refusing to deny doping? That Valverde still won't condemn doping? That Contador still thinks he has won 3 Giri? That Visconti and Rojas have been emailing Ferrari Jr about training well after the introduction of the passport? That Lance didn't dope in 2009? That an absolutely ridiculous percentage of riders have asthma and/or thyroid problems? That there are miraculous recoveries happening towards the end of Grand Tours? Blah blah.
These are the ones that are meaningless. I don't require constant public self flagellation of my ex dopers. I probably wont cheer for them, but how do you know that Valverde isn't just pissed off that he was the one Spanish rider to take the fall for Puerto and now instructs all his young teamies to do it properly?
You're allowing emotion to replace analysis.
It's not emotion, I have nothing against riders who have been busted, but I certainly don't feel confident enough to call some ex-dopers.0 -
I think most people know Joelsim's understanding of doping is at the level of a Roger Hargreaves book. He tries to read a lot on it obviously, but where other people admit where things are technically quickly beyond them, he chooses to paint broad stroke conclusions.
You'll never get any real in-depth stuff from him on the subject that you can't scan read from the odd condensed news driven article here and there. He has a right to draw his own conclusions though.
Let's see who is right in the fullness of time. Until then throw insults as much as you like.
I'm right though, you are going on gut feeling and lots of casual interest in it, no bad thing, but I don't think you understand much of it in depth. I'm not saying I do at all by the way but nothing you ever say seems to be backed up by much and it always seems completely obvious what articles you've read and what's influenced you.
I think a lot of casual observers on doping are the same. It's fine, but there's people on here who understand things a lot lot more who are far more informed and they don't make the kind of broad sweeping claims you do.
It isn't about any one article, it's a build of many, many articles which all suggest that there is plenty of scope to dope, and history and human nature tell us that where there is scope it will be taken in whatever field.
There are also a lot of 'more informed' people who have very different views to those you are putting forward mfin.
This forum is as far to the left as The Clinic is to the right.
Lol come on. Everyone in here knows doping still goes on, but the vast majority have the sensible view that it's almost certainly a lot cleaner than previous eras.
The Clinic is full of self-righteous tin foil hat merchants. putting anyone who tries to have a reasoned argument with them on ignore, stating their opinions as facts and creaming over Twitter climb calculations (that may or may not have been with a massive tailwind, but hey that doesn't matter).
The two quotes from that site that made me realise it wasn't even worth going there for a laugh were 1) Just before the start of the Giro, someone said "there they are, 167 cheats and they will never stop", and 2) On the subject of Froome one of them said "I will never accept he is clean even if he never tests positive and retrospective testing never comes up with anything whatsoever".
See that's the thing, they can sit there saying everyone is cheating knowing full well they can never be proved wrong.0 -
You know I could say the same thing about your knowledge of the subject. Does it fill you with confidence when people like Rebellin state 'I'm subject to the same testing as everyone else' whilst refusing to deny doping? That Valverde still won't condemn doping? That Contador still thinks he has won 3 Giri? That Visconti and Rojas have been emailing Ferrari Jr about training well after the introduction of the passport? That Lance didn't dope in 2009? That an absolutely ridiculous percentage of riders have asthma and/or thyroid problems? That there are miraculous recoveries happening towards the end of Grand Tours? Blah blah.
Yes you could, but I'm not the one offering conclusions, and if I did, I'd make sure I knew the science. ...and yes, I understand the rest of what you wrote as do plenty of others who've followed cycling for years and followed all the doping scandals, we understand the context but aren't going to add it all up to be some screaming fact that everyone is doping, cos that is just joining the dots with a crayon far too much.0 -
Anyone else think that Sastre has come out of this pretty well? Always liked him and the way he rode.0
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You know I could say the same thing about your knowledge of the subject. Does it fill you with confidence when people like Rebellin state 'I'm subject to the same testing as everyone else' whilst refusing to deny doping? That Valverde still won't condemn doping? That Contador still thinks he has won 3 Giri? That Visconti and Rojas have been emailing Ferrari Jr about training well after the introduction of the passport? That Lance didn't dope in 2009? That an absolutely ridiculous percentage of riders have asthma and/or thyroid problems? That there are miraculous recoveries happening towards the end of Grand Tours? Blah blah.
Yes you could, but I'm not the one offering conclusions, and if I did, I'd make sure I knew the science. ...and yes, I understand the rest of what you wrote as do plenty of others who've followed cycling for years and followed all the doping scandals, we understand the context but aren't going to add it all up to be some screaming fact that everyone is doping, cos that is just joining the dots with a crayon far too much.
I certainly don't think everyone is doping, but I do think plenty are.
Yep, referring to the post above this one, The Clinic is way too much for me too.0 -
What does this mean for Contador, who won the Tour for Discovery that year?
Well it means nothing really because: if there were some riders on Team A that doped it does not follow that rider 21 doped. It is my understanding anyway (from that long and very detailed doc that came out of the Lance saga) that it was a closed circle of protected riders. And Contador was not among them. Furthermore:
The internal scar left in his head makes that area of his brain so hypersensitive that he often has epileptic fits. Contador takes medication daily to prevent those fits, and pays regular visits to the neurologist. Pedro Celaya, the doctor at his past team Discovery reported that as he remembers, Contador was absolutely obsessed with not doing anything strange about his health.
You're having a laugh! Either that or you are a deluded fanboi. This is the same Celaya the facilitator? Like we should take him at his word. Have you ever looked at Contadors VAM on some of the big Tour climbs? He has absolutely toasted the figures of some exalted doping company. Realistic figures for your little spanish friend? Oh but he did it on bread and water, yeah right. Cartoon cycling - I presume you enjoy watching Dopers0 -
Anyone else think that Sastre has come out of this pretty well? Always liked him and the way he rode.
Sir Dave always believed in him and wanted him on the team. Oh, hang on, SKY are all doping so that doesn't make sense....0 -
Anyone else think that Sastre has come out of this pretty well? Always liked him and the way he rode.
Sir Dave always believed in him and wanted him on the team. Oh, hang on, SKY are all doping so that doesn't make sense....
It would be astonishing that he avoided doping, given the teams he was in (ONCE, CSC) and the attitude to doping in the country he is from. Add to that the era of rider that he was able to hang tough with and your natural reaction should be skepticism.
However all anecdotal evidence seems to point to someone of high moral character, who does not want to dope and as there is nothing, not even a whiff against him, you have to give him the benefit of the doubt.
If he has ridden clean, he is an even greater talent than is already obvious and has been screwed out of what would have been an amazing legacy.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Just slip into an empty bedroom in your suite at the CampanileJoel. How can you possibly dope at a race without the knowledge of your team? Who's preserving your dope and cleaning your works?0 -
Anyone else think that Sastre has come out of this pretty well? Always liked him and the way he rode.
Sir Dave always believed in him and wanted him on the team. Oh, hang on, SKY are all doping so that doesn't make sense....
It would be astonishing that he avoided doping, given the teams he was in (ONCE, CSC) and the attitude to doping in the country he is from. Add to that the era of rider that he was able to hang tough with and your natural reaction should be skepticism.
However all anecdotal evidence seems to point to someone of high moral character, who does not want to dope and as there is nothing, not even a whiff against him, you have to give him the benefit of the doubt.
If he has ridden clean, he is an even greater talent than is already obvious and has been screwed out of what would have been an amazing legacy.
His brother in law going the way he did may have had some effect on his outlook of drug use by cyclists"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
And no I'm not going to admit to being wrong as I'm 100% sure I'm not.
Is that because you are you a supplier?Contador is the Greatest0 -
You mean Kruijswijk[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632608#p19632608]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Martin Tjallingi rode it in 1:03:43 or 33% quicker.0 -
Anyone else think that Sastre has come out of this pretty well? Always liked him and the way he rode.
Yeah, always a fan and properly stylish. A rider who knows and comes from the heart of cycling. Real rider.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Just slip into an empty bedroom in your suite at the CampanileJoel. How can you possibly dope at a race without the knowledge of your team? Who's preserving your dope and cleaning your works?
Now I think of it, you can probably pack most of an ICU in 9 mattresses....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
You mean Kruijswijk[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632608#p19632608]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Martin Tjallingi rode it in 1:03:43 or 33% quicker.
Of course. It had been a stressful day and I was on my 2nd Orval by then"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
The Finestre Strava segment is pretty accurate BTW, only a few 100 meters missing from the full climb[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632897#p19632897]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
You mean Kruijswijk[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632608#p19632608]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Martin Tjallingi rode it in 1:03:43 or 33% quicker.
Of course. It had been a stressful day and I was on my 2nd Orval by then0 -
Contador is the Greatest0 -
lets hope Sastre was clean, which just shows what a talent he was. Only blot on his character is that after he won LA thought he was a better rider and so came out of retirement. Can't really blame Sastre for that though0
