Anti Doping Denmark report
Comments
-
With regard to micro dosing. I don't think many deny that you can dope a little a stay the right side of the biological passport and be at low risk of failing a morning test. However what many like myself will dispute is to whether there is sufficient performance gains to make it all worthwhile.
Similarly I know a way to beat the drink driving breathalyser - you drink very little and don't drive for a few hours. But you won't get tipsy.Twitter: @RichN950 -
The problem with some people when assessing doping is that they believe that a doper will dope regardless of circumstance. If it can be done it will be done.
In reality there are several factors that dictate whether someone dopes:
Potential gains (or more usually prevention of potential loss)
Cost (not just financially, but also in terms of logistics)
Risk (which incorporates not just the chances of being caught, but also the consequences)
It comes down to a simple equation:
A rider will dope if:
P/(C * R) > M
(where M is the rider's own personal morality).
The value of all four of those variables have changed since 2004 for better, so to say that nothing has changed is just nonsense.
I agree. And what I am saying is that R is pretty much zero currently unless he makes a mistake on the dosage.
No, clearly the risk isn't "pretty much zero".
Risk includes, but isn't limited to:-
Being grassed up by another rider
Being grassed up by a supplier
Being grassed up by a team employee
Being caught in possession
Being caught when you dispose of your needles
Being caught in a criminal investigation into organised crime, tax evasion and drug supply (possibly with phone taps included)
Being caught by a new and improved test
Being caught because the drug you bought wasn't exactly what you thought it was, so you dose too high or take something more traceable
Being caught by adjustments to the bio-passport algorithms
There's a lot more to be careful about than just knowing your glow-time.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
It's not. Because as a top rider you know you are going to be tested frequently (unlike in other sports), and you stay between the boundaries. And it's very well documented that you can microdose at 11pm and pass a test first thing the next morning, yet still gain a benefit. It's also pretty apparent that the passport won't pick this up too.
So, you stay within the limits.
Regarding the collateral damage, it's also pretty apparent that the organised doping in teams is not the usual thing any more.
I can accept that it's possible to trick the passport by adjusting your parameters with an altitude camp, and that EPO becomes undetectable too fast for the current testing window. But I think it's ambitious to keep all of this drug smuggling and paraphenalia from the team. Especially at a camp. I mean, imagine relying on Richie not to foul-up.
It doesn't need to be at a camp. Rider A takes a dose at home as soon as his ADAMS hour has passed by, which gives him 24 hours or even 47 hours before his next ADAMS hour. If a microdose is undetectable after 6 or 7 hours, that potentially gives the rider a licence to take a much larger dose in this period.
If the testers turn up during this time, he isn't at home and it doesn't count as a missed test.0 -
It's not. Because as a top rider you know you are going to be tested frequently (unlike in other sports), and you stay between the boundaries. And it's very well documented that you can microdose at 11pm and pass a test first thing the next morning, yet still gain a benefit. It's also pretty apparent that the passport won't pick this up too.
So, you stay within the limits.
Regarding the collateral damage, it's also pretty apparent that the organised doping in teams is not the usual thing any more.
I can accept that it's possible to trick the passport by adjusting your parameters with an altitude camp, and that EPO becomes undetectable too fast for the current testing window. But I think it's ambitious to keep all of this drug smuggling and paraphenalia from the team. Especially at a camp. I mean, imagine relying on Richie not to foul-up.
Richie's main problem is trying to work out his micro-dose, based on the wildly variable and ever-declining body weights that FF tells him he has.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Why would you dope at all times EXCEPT when it matters most? i.e. at a training camp or a race*?
Plus, that dip in heamatocrit would also raise the passport's eyebrow (as it were). Which is actually the most important part. Your story (and the BBC/l'Equipe shows) is predicated on a rider doping every day, in season or off season for their whole career. Now that truly WOULD be a first!
*Stage raceWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
And what if the testers just sit there waiting for him to leave the house?It doesn't need to be at a camp. Rider A takes a dose at home as soon as his ADAMS hour has passed by, which gives him 24 hours or even 47 hours before his next ADAMS hour. If a microdose is undetectable after 6 or 7 hours, that potentially gives the rider a licence to take a much larger dose in this period.
If the testers turn up during this time, he isn't at home and it doesn't count as a missed test.
The ABP also works as a resource for detecting suspicion. Just because a rider isn't doing enough to initiate a case it doesn't mean they aren't attracting attention.Twitter: @RichN950 -
How would you know? You weren't watching cycling in 2004.Not far off, just smaller quantities and reduced benefits. That is all the passport has done.
As stated a multitude of times, I was, but nowhere near as avidly.
It also doesn't take a genius to work out that when there is pretty much 0% chance of being caught, as there is at the moment, then there will be a whole host of riders who will push as far as they can. History tells us that. And I'm pretty sure the future will prove me correct.
You're obviously wrong about the percentage chance of failing a test. Riders are going positive all the time. And I think you're equally mistaken in feeling that future offenders will have the same soft landings as these more historical figures. Were one of the top riders to go pop now, I doubt there would be any way back. And rightly so.
Those that get caught are those who push it too far, or are very unlucky with a random, out-of-competition test. For those that don't push the boundaries, the chance of being popped is zero.
It's for this reason that it's very unlikely a top rider will go pop now. Retrospective testing is the only chance.
The problem with your logic, for me, is that you drop in phrases like 'For those that don't push the boundaries, the chance of being popped is zero' and we're all supposed to see the sense in it. What are 'the boundaries' and how do you define 'zero'?
By doping you're already pushing the boundaries (well, you've pushed right through them).
By this logic you'd almost be crazy not to dope.0 -
Why would you dope at all times EXCEPT when it matters most? i.e. at a training camp or a race*?
Plus, that dip in heamatocrit would also raise the passport's eyebrow (as it were). Which is actually the most important part. Your story (and the BBC/l'Equipe shows) is predicated on a rider doping every day, in season or off season for their whole career. Now that truly WOULD be a first!
*Stage race
Because the benefits last longer than the glowtime. Again well documented.
And regarding the passport, this is set to 1/1000 chance of a wrong flag. Blood values can and do fluctuate wildly within those parameters.0 -
By this logic you'd almost be crazy not to dope.
Correct.0 -
So your a TdF rider (3 weeks remember), you risk everything dopng before the race for a very small gain which will last a few days into the race before the EPO is excreted or the body readjusts to the extra blood cells and your body returns to normal (potentially triggering the biopassport) by say...stage 4?
...kWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
And what if the testers just sit there waiting for him to leave the house?It doesn't need to be at a camp. Rider A takes a dose at home as soon as his ADAMS hour has passed by, which gives him 24 hours or even 47 hours before his next ADAMS hour. If a microdose is undetectable after 6 or 7 hours, that potentially gives the rider a licence to take a much larger dose in this period.
If the testers turn up during this time, he isn't at home and it doesn't count as a missed test.
The ABP also works as a resource for detecting suspicion. Just because a rider isn't doing enough to initiate a case it doesn't mean they aren't attracting attention.
The rider then faces a few very boring hours hiding under the bed.
And yes the ABP does when the parameters are breached, at which point a flag is raised and 3 experts look at the data independently. Assuming they agree then the rider will be subject to more scrutiny.0 -
So your a TdF rider (3 weeks remember), you risk everything dopng before the race for a very small gain which will last a few days into the race before the EPO is excreted or the body readjusts to the extra blood cells and your body returns to normal by say...stage 4?
...k
No. The doping allows you to train harder and recover from your training more quickly.
Then during the race on an occasion or two you may top up with a microdose. And not mentioning any names hey presto, from hugely suffering to being on top of your game again.0 -
But he doesn't know they're there. They haven't been to the house. They're just waiting for him to leave for training.[
The rider then faces a few very boring hours hiding under the bed.Twitter: @RichN950 -
You may have missed my post from the previous page, so I'll try again:Why would you dope at all times EXCEPT when it matters most? i.e. at a training camp or a race*?
Plus, that dip in heamatocrit would also raise the passport's eyebrow (as it were). Which is actually the most important part. Your story (and the BBC/l'Equipe shows) is predicated on a rider doping every day, in season or off season for their whole career. Now that truly WOULD be a first!
*Stage race
Because the benefits last longer than the glowtime. Again well documented.
And regarding the passport, this is set to 1/1000 chance of a wrong flag. Blood values can and do fluctuate wildly within those parameters.
Joelsim, when you have a moment please could you post a brief summary (on a haematological level if possible) of your understanding of how the bio passport works. It would help me gauge whether you know what you are talking about or not.
I suspect you believe that every rider is assigned a number. If they post a result above this number they are now doping. If they post one below it, they were doping before but aren't now.
Even if that were how it worked, I venture that you'd argue that if the rider posts the same number then they were doping before and still are now.0 -
So your a TdF rider (3 weeks remember), you risk everything dopng before the race for a very small gain which will last a few days into the race before the EPO is excreted or the body readjusts to the extra blood cells and your body returns to normal by say...stage 4?
...k
No. The doping allows you to train harder and recover from your training more quickly.
Then during the race on an occasion or two you may top up with a microdose. And not mentioning any names hey presto, from hugely suffering to being on top of your game again.
Could you also explain how microdosing works? Is it just a little bit of doping? Where instead of getting 10% increase in 'performance' you only get 1%, say?
It's important for me to know whether to even engage with you.0 -
So your a TdF rider (3 weeks remember), you risk everything dopng before the race for a very small gain which will last a few days into the race before the EPO is excreted or the body readjusts to the extra blood cells and your body returns to normal by say...stage 4?
...k
No. The doping allows you to train harder and recover from your training more quickly.
Then during the race on an occasion or two you may top up with a microdose. And not mentioning any names hey presto, from hugely suffering to being on top of your game again.
but you said they can't do it at training camps - which is when the most important training is done.
At the moment your story suggests they are risking everything for pretty much zero reward...whatever you think the chance of being caught is, that's just mad!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
How is the passport used for target testing? I've only heard of the three precogs registering a possible anomaly in an anonymous profile initiating a Dear JTL/Krooziger letter. Do they target test some subset of the suspect profiles that don't trigger all 3 experts?...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0
-
You may have missed my post from the previous page, so I'll try again:Why would you dope at all times EXCEPT when it matters most? i.e. at a training camp or a race*?
Plus, that dip in heamatocrit would also raise the passport's eyebrow (as it were). Which is actually the most important part. Your story (and the BBC/l'Equipe shows) is predicated on a rider doping every day, in season or off season for their whole career. Now that truly WOULD be a first!
*Stage race
Because the benefits last longer than the glowtime. Again well documented.
And regarding the passport, this is set to 1/1000 chance of a wrong flag. Blood values can and do fluctuate wildly within those parameters.
Joelsim, when you have a moment please could you post a brief summary (on a haematological level if possible) of your understanding of how the bio passport works. It would help me gauge whether you know what you are talking about or not.
I suspect you believe that every rider is assigned a number. If they post a result above this number they are now doping. If they post one below it, they were doping before but aren't now.
Even if that were how it worked, I venture that you'd argue that if the rider posts the same number then they were doping before and still are now.
Yes. There are upper and lower limits which are created by the passport depending on the results of each individual rider and samples taken over a period of time. This is a moveable feast but as time progresses the limits become more set.
The passport measures several different blood measures including Hct, Haemoglobin, old and new reticulocytes etc.0 -
Why would you possibly want to do that? Remember it's not the training that builds fitness, but the recovery. Maybe you could add a basic description of exercise physiology to the list of explanation I've already requested.So your a TdF rider (3 weeks remember), you risk everything dopng before the race for a very small gain which will last a few days into the race before the EPO is excreted or the body readjusts to the extra blood cells and your body returns to normal by say...stage 4?
...k
No. The doping allows you to train harder and recover from your training more quickly.
Ta.0 -
What does this mean for Contador, who won the Tour for Discovery that year?
Well it means nothing really because: if there were some riders on Team A that doped it does not follow that rider 21 doped. It is my understanding anyway (from that long and very detailed doc that came out of the Lance saga) that it was a closed circle of protected riders. And Contador was not among them. Furthermore:
The internal scar left in his head makes that area of his brain so hypersensitive that he often has epileptic fits. Contador takes medication daily to prevent those fits, and pays regular visits to the neurologist. Pedro Celaya, the doctor at his past team Discovery reported that as he remembers, Contador was absolutely obsessed with not doing anything strange about his health.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Ok back to the report, what nuggets can you glean from it. Most of it implied.
- Riis is a lying scumbag. Even when he confessed to doping in 07/08? he lied during that confession. I look forward to a similar follow up from (I tried it once but didn't like it) Zabel
- The Danish riders on CSC doped
- Fuentes had a direct link to team management and so probably worked with many of the team's riders
- Jaksche, Rasmussen and Hamilton's accusations are vindicated
This puts into context Riis' ability to ressurect people's careers. This doesn't look good for Jalabert, Basso, Voigt or the Schleck brothers.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
And yes I know that injecting EPO and transfusions has effects on these measurements, and causes the body to produce less/more depending on what you take and the values in the transfused blood etc etc.0
-
Well it means nothing really because: if there were some riders on Team A that doped it does not follow that rider 21 doped. It is my understanding anyway (from that long and very detailed doc that came out of the Lance saga) that it was a closed circle of protected riders. And Contador was not among them. Furthermore:
Contador must have been a protected rider as he vied for the title with a goofed up Rasmussen, no?
The internal scar left in his head makes that area of his brain so hypersensitive that he often has epileptic fits. Contador takes medication daily to prevent those fits, and pays regular visits to the neurologist. Pedro Celaya, the doctor at his past team Discovery reported that as he remembers, Contador was absolutely obsessed with not doing anything strange about his health.
That explanation holds as much water as Armstrong's "I came this close to death, why would I dope?" line. And the mouthpiece of the quote is entirely discredited.
I'm sorry, I just could never buy shares in Squeaky Clean Alberto Inc.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Joel. How can you possibly dope at a race without the knowledge of your team? Who's preserving your dope and cleaning your works?...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0
-
I'm sorry, I just could never buy shares in Squeaky Clean Alberto Inc.
I have already bought them all in any case. Why else do you think I talk my book at every opportunity.Contador is the Greatest0 -
I'm sorry, I just could never buy shares in Squeaky Clean Alberto Inc.
I have already bought them all in any case. Why else do you think I talk my book at every opportunity.
I have to admire your perserverenceIt's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
I think there was a bit more to it than just doping. I doubt anyone who doped and was resurrected at CSC hadn't done so at their previous team.This puts into context Riis' ability to ressurect people's careers. This doesn't look good for Jalabert, Basso, Voigt or the Schleck brothers.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Joel. How can you possibly dope at a race without the knowledge of your team? Who's preserving your dope and cleaning your works?
In case you hadn't noticed there are still a huge number of people involved in cycling with the knowledge and past misdemeanors.
Anyway, bored now. Suffice it to say I have read thousands (no exaggeration either) of pieces over the last few years about doping. It fascinates me. Which is why I have courage in my convictions.0
