Rider down, Bank
Comments
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RIP to the lady who lost her life. Sympathy to her loved ones.
There are so many instances of cyclists sitting in the blind spots of large vehicles. Whether it's that they don't see the problem or whether it's that they assumed/hoped there would be enough room to get past and ahead of the vehicle and then realised that there were already loads of cyclists at the front and they're then stuck alongside...
I see this ALL the time in London when cycling, just about every cyclist is so eager to get to the front, creeping up the side of buses and lorries when they just don't know how much time is left on the lights. I keep back, may one or two vehicles where there's a safe gap in the traffic...wait for the queue to move then move with it. I do think many cyclists have a lot to learn (need to get educated) in order to protect themselves from dangerous situations.
I will only get on the inside of a large vehicle when I'm sure it isn't going to move with me beside it.WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
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RIP to the lady who lost her life. Sympathy to her loved ones.
There are so many instances of cyclists sitting in the blind spots of large vehicles. Whether it's that they don't see the problem or whether it's that they assumed/hoped there would be enough room to get past and ahead of the vehicle and then realised that there were already loads of cyclists at the front and they're then stuck alongside...
I see this ALL the time in London when cycling, just about every cyclist is so eager to get to the front, creeping up the side of buses and lorries when they just don't know how much time is left on the lights. I keep back, may one or two vehicles where there's a safe gap in the traffic...wait for the queue to move then move with it. I do think many cyclists have a lot to learn (need to get educated) in order to protect themselves from dangerous situations.
Thing is we are all berating cyclists, but I've done this. Waited two vehicles back, positioned my bike in the middle of the lane and the motorist behind me took exception to it. Now I'm big and ugly enough for that sort of behavior not to bother me, a more vulnerable/inexperienced cyclist?
They might worry that the guy behind driving into them. If they wait on the right, they could worry about oncoming traffic and the vehicle to their left while they wobble as they set off - lets face it, staying left feels safest, which is a large part of the problem.
The road is a shared space, and while I'm not absolving cyclists from their actions which causes problems there are attitudes from motorists which help fuel those actions (and visa versa).Food Chain number = 4
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just about every cyclist is so eager to get to the front
(I know I'm correcting my own post here as DrLodge quoted me)
just about every person is so eager to get to the front
when cycling
when driving
when queuing for the bus. train. seat on a plane. in a shop
people are stupid and impatient. anticipating the stupidity isn't straightforward as most arguments descend into "Well they shouldn't do that then should they".
No, they shouldn't.
Yes, they still will.
So, in this instance, it's a toss up between people getting killed and lorries (whose drivers are equally impatient and prone to mistakes) being removed from the roads at the most problematic times.
The signs on the back of vans that say "If you can't see my mirrors I can't see you" need to be put on the side of lorries - "If you are alongside this, I may crush you. With a harrowing picture".
I know you posted before me. But my post wasn't meant to berate cyclists. It's people. People on bikes (and as I said above, people in cars and every other situation). It's just that the impatient people in bikes are never going to come off well in these situations.Thing is we are all berating cyclists
So I think I'm actually just blaming people for generally not being able to fully appreciate the danger they might be in. Which is part of our nature. Just that the risk for getting it wrong is quite high.0 -
The road is a shared space, and while I'm not absolving cyclists from their actions which causes problems there are attitudes from motorists which help fuel those actions (and visa versa).
The attitude of many motorists stinks. Many cyclists put themselves in harms way either through arrogance, fear or ignorance, but then they aren't in large metal killing machines. I find the routine aggression towards cyclists simply staggering. Others just don't seem in the least bit aware how their actions impact other road users.
As others have said the real key is education. F-off great big warning signs at junctions would be a start.Kinesis Racelite 4s disc
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Just put red light cameras at each junction and charge MASSHOOF fines every time someone runs a red, multiple repeat offences should x 10 or even 100 any construction company getting those on a regular enough basis should get pretty pissed off and consider WTF their drivers are doing.Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
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just about every cyclist is so eager to get to the front
(I know I'm correcting my own post here as DrLodge quoted me)
just about every person is so eager to get to the front
when cycling
when driving
when queuing for the bus. train. seat on a plane. in a shop
people are stupid and impatient. anticipating the stupidity isn't straightforward as most arguments descend into "Well they shouldn't do that then should they".
No, they shouldn't.
Yes, they still will.
So, in this instance, it's a toss up between people getting killed and lorries (whose drivers are equally impatient and prone to mistakes) being removed from the roads at the most problematic times.
The signs on the back of vans that say "If you can't see my mirrors I can't see you" need to be put on the side of lorries - "If you are alongside this, I may crush you. With a harrowing picture".
I know you posted before me. But my post wasn't meant to berate cyclists. It's people. People on bikes (and as I said above, people in cars and every other situation). It's just that the impatient people in bikes are never going to come off well in these situations.Thing is we are all berating cyclists
So I think I'm actually just blaming people for generally not being able to fully appreciate the danger they might be in. Which is part of our nature. Just that the risk for getting it wrong is quite high.
Very, very well put, and a very balanced view.
It's tragic that these ubiquitous failings have such consequences in many situations (i.e. not specifically this case).Sometimes parts break. Sometimes you crash. Sometimes it’s your fault.0 -
The mention of Education is absolutely correct, bar a cycling proficiency test or your driving licence there is no education. How many people have ever been stopped by the police and given any advice being it cycling or driving, we're just left to get on with it. Every day we all get to see the sh1te standards of driving and cycling on our roads and a bit more segregated infrastructure isn't going to sort that.If I know you, and I like you, you can borrow my bike box for £30 a week. PM for details.0
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The road is a shared space, and while I'm not absolving cyclists from their actions which causes problems there are attitudes from motorists which help fuel those actions (and visa versa).
The attitude of many motorists stinks. Many cyclists put themselves in harms way either through arrogance, fear or ignorance, but then they aren't in large metal killing machines. I find the routine aggression towards cyclists simply staggering. Others just don't seem in the least bit aware how their actions impact other road users.
As others have said the real key is education. F-off great big warning signs at junctions would be a start.
I might even agree with you, but are lorry drivers among those crowds? I have not come across many HGV drivers who do outrageous things on the road... vans yes, cars yet, lorries no... and the problem seems to be HGV, not cars, not vans... so road rage seems an irrelevant point when it comes to deathsleft the forum March 20230 -
It is tragic. for this woman's family and for the all the others, and no one "side" is to blame.
We can't change human nature.
But we can change our streets.
Bank is an example of a junction that's really dangerous. It's disproportionately dangerous to cyclists (to pedestrians too, but we're talking about cyclists here).
Education may have a role in changing that, but nothing compared to what you could do with a decent re-design of the junction to make it safer and better for everyone.
There's actually a City of London document posted online about it - I don't know what the status of this planning idea is, or whether it stands up to close inspection, but it looks interesting:
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/services/environment-and-planning/Documents/Part11-proposals_BankJunction.pdf
There is a real imbalance in central London between the numbers and needs of cyclists and what they are expected to survive with. Addressing those needs would reduce casualties on our streets as well as conflicts between different road users.0 -
in addition the Establishment is positively trying to encourage as many people as possible to get out there[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632240#p19632240]anonymousblackfg[/url] wrote:... bar a cycling proficiency test or your driving licence there is no education ... we're just left to get on with it ...Dolan Titanium ADX 2016
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The redesign of the West bound Millbank junction by Vauxhall Bridge is an interesting one. There is now a filter lane to the left, so cyclists going over the bridge can avoid the traffic. That is good, but I am sure the left turn for other vehicles seems sharper now, leading to more of the swing- out then turn in shape that tipper trucks have to do.
I just don't go anywhere near tipper lorries unless I know 100% that there are no turns in the vicinity - helps to know the route well. That said - they can still drive straight over the top of you in a straight line, or come flying into your lane, and no manner of precaution will prevent that. Both me and IP nearly had that happen at the same place approaching Vauxhall roundabout.0 -
in addition the Establishment is positively trying to encourage as many people as possible to get out there[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632240#p19632240]anonymousblackfg[/url] wrote:... bar a cycling proficiency test or your driving licence there is no education ... we're just left to get on with it ...
Unfortunately this is a nice idea but I'll admit to encouraging my other half to not ride in central London; in fact her bike is locked up in my Surrey compound for social park rides.
I've now racked up nearly 50,000 miles and whilst certainly not infallible, have come a long way since being your typical impatient 'allez' man. There is much that can be done for both infrastructure AND pushing people towards training, the being left to get in with it isn't great and I can recall some very very close shaves in the early days.0 -
I think ultimately the infrastructure isn't really appropriate to make cycling safe enough & be available for necessary traffic for commerce; lorries, vans, trucks etc.
To me, all this education stuff is basically a plaster over that bigger problem. As Dhope says, not everyone will adheed to education around road position etc because it is so often to do with context etc. Not everyone is going to be educated, and not everyone will get the 'answer' right, so to speak. You can't rely on that.
I think broadly speaking most cyclists and drivers generally are sensible most of the time, but it doesn't take much of a mistake for it to be very costly.
That's ultimately it - the margin for error in London is very narrow because of the volume of traffic, the type of traffic, and the infrastructure available.0 -
In an ideal world it would not be a bike shops responsibility to get involved in road safety for cyclists. However, given so many new cyclists are coming onto the streets via an Evan's or Halfords or whatever purchase it would be great if every bike was sold with a simple list of do's and dont's, perhaps accompanied by diagrams. Even better, given most people have smartphones, why not a barcode or whatever on the sheet that then links to online videos on road craft for cyclists? Perhaps then a link to local bikeability classes after the user inputs their post code? Or the shop could provide the details? Just some options really to help new cyclists to be safer where its possible to lean road craft that makes them safer?
I appreciate, this doesn't begin to deal with the crap junctions/roads/drivers we all deal with daily. But it might just help new cyclists feel safer. And be safer. It might also encourage the industry to be more involved in road safety for cyclists as well.0 -
I am all for education etc, but you will struggle to get killed in London other than by being run-over by a construction lorry/HGV. If they were not around, I would think London would stack up as pretty safe - with most accidents at low speed. You do hear of other vehicles causing serious injury and the odd fatality, but the anecdotal evidence is that construction lorries kill...and there is a hell of a lot of construction going on.0
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The stretch between London Bridge and Finsbury Square is chocker with building works and between 8-9am this morning I saw 5 tipper trucks.
I picked my lad up from football training and I was still in my cycling gear and got talking to another Dad - an HGV driver. Not a nasty man by any stretch but I was really surprised at his attitude which was pretty much "there's signs on the back and I can't see cyclists so what do you expect? It's too dangerous to cycle around London - you must be mad". Other Dads nodded sagely in agreement2015 Cervelo S3
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The road is a shared space, and while I'm not absolving cyclists from their actions which causes problems there are attitudes from motorists which help fuel those actions (and visa versa).
The attitude of many motorists stinks. Many cyclists put themselves in harms way either through arrogance, fear or ignorance, but then they aren't in large metal killing machines. I find the routine aggression towards cyclists simply staggering. Others just don't seem in the least bit aware how their actions impact other road users.
As others have said the real key is education. F-off great big warning signs at junctions would be a start.
I might even agree with you, but are lorry drivers among those crowds? I have not come across many HGV drivers who do outrageous things on the road... vans yes, cars yet, lorries no... and the problem seems to be HGV, not cars, not vans... so road rage seems an irrelevant point when it comes to deaths
Sadly I've seen plenty. Speeding. Light jumping. Deliberately pulling out forcing others to stop. Illegal parking. Aggressive use of horn. Aggressive use of the vehicle. Not using indicators.
The fact that they are the most dangerous vehicles on the roads simply means they should be whiter than white in this regard but very many aren't. That said I have some sympathy for their drivers who have to drive with large unmaneuverable vehicles with very poor visibility.Kinesis Racelite 4s disc
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RIP to the lady who lost her life. Sympathy to her loved ones.
There are so many instances of cyclists sitting in the blind spots of large vehicles. Whether it's that they don't see the problem or whether it's that they assumed/hoped there would be enough room to get past and ahead of the vehicle and then realised that there were already loads of cyclists at the front and they're then stuck alongside...
I see this ALL the time in London when cycling, just about every cyclist is so eager to get to the front, creeping up the side of buses and lorries when they just don't know how much time is left on the lights. I keep back, may one or two vehicles where there's a safe gap in the traffic...wait for the queue to move then move with it. I do think many cyclists have a lot to learn (need to get educated) in order to protect themselves from dangerous situations.
I will only get on the inside of a large vehicle when I'm sure it isn't going to move with me beside it.
OK, I give in. How do you know this?
I think your first approach would be safer and never go down the inside of any vehicle...0 -
RIP to the lady who lost her life. Sympathy to her loved ones.
There are so many instances of cyclists sitting in the blind spots of large vehicles. Whether it's that they don't see the problem or whether it's that they assumed/hoped there would be enough room to get past and ahead of the vehicle and then realised that there were already loads of cyclists at the front and they're then stuck alongside...
I see this ALL the time in London when cycling, just about every cyclist is so eager to get to the front, creeping up the side of buses and lorries when they just don't know how much time is left on the lights. I keep back, may one or two vehicles where there's a safe gap in the traffic...wait for the queue to move then move with it. I do think many cyclists have a lot to learn (need to get educated) in order to protect themselves from dangerous situations.
I will only get on the inside of a large vehicle when I'm sure it isn't going to move with me beside it.
OK, I give in. How do you know this?
I think your first approach would be safer and never go down the inside of any vehicle...
Knowing the routes; if there is a clear view of solid & immovable traffic in-front, straight road and no side roads there are places I will pass inside. If said vehicle is near the front of a traffic light, has the freedom to move and or is level with any left turns its a big no and stay behind or go around the outside.0 -
I'd simplify that rule: Never allow yourself to be alongside a moving vehicle unless you're damn sure it knows you're there. By implication this means you should never allow yourself to be alongside a stationary vehicle unless you're damn sure you can get back into a safe position (which includes being clearly visible to anyone behind you) before it starts moving.Pannier, 120rpm.0
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For those worried about cycling in central London, the very safest course of action is of course: don’t do it.
But we do.
How we ride varies, amongst other things, according to our tolerance for and perception of risk.
We all take risk by merely being out there. Sometimes we’re confronted by a situation where a particular course of action is more convenient or quicker, but riskier. We judge the situation and act accordingly, and what we do is highly informed by our experience.
Lack of experience and/or education is where perception of risk is different from the reality:
- Until you (nearly) go over the bonnet of a right-turning car coming through a hidden gap in the stationary traffic, you think that filtering through stationary traffic is pretty safe.
- Until you’re (nearly) alongside the van that suddenly swerves left onto the pavement to avoid a car that’s sitting mid-road and indicating right, you think that being on the left of the van while there’s no left turning is pretty safe.
- etc etc.
One of the great shames of life is that it takes 5 years to get 5 years of experience.Dolan Titanium ADX 2016
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To add:
One thing that leaves me wondering is why there are metal barriers on the corners of some junctions. If there was one where I was I wouldn't have been able to get out of the way.
You may or may not have noticed that the current course of action is to remove railings/barriers on the corners & sides of roads by Local Authorities, precisely for this reason. That's why they put those bell shaped things on corners instead as discouragement to cars/vans/lorries to cutting the now free of obstruction corner.1997 Gary Fisher Big Sur
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Or that van comes out of a side road as you come downhill doing nearly 30 and plough into the side of it. Funnily enough the van driver seemed to think that him pulling out of the side road gave home right of way over a cyclist.
Plenty of ways out there to become a KSI stat.RIP commute...
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In an ideal world it would not be a bike shops responsibility to get involved in road safety for cyclists. However, given so many new cyclists are coming onto the streets via an Evan's or Halfords or whatever purchase it would be great if every bike was sold with a simple list of do's and dont's, perhaps accompanied by diagrams. Even better, given most people have smartphones, why not a barcode or whatever on the sheet that then links to online videos on road craft for cyclists? Perhaps then a link to local bikeability classes after the user inputs their post code? Or the shop could provide the details? Just some options really to help new cyclists to be safer where its possible to lean road craft that makes them safer?
I appreciate, this doesn't begin to deal with the crap junctions/roads/drivers we all deal with daily. But it might just help new cyclists feel safer. And be safer. It might also encourage the industry to be more involved in road safety for cyclists as well.
+1. Before handing over the keys to your spanking new bike, promote bikeability/basic safety awareness. Manufacturers and retailers are minting it at the moment, so it would hurt them one bit to invest money to promote safety awareness to new cyclist.0 -
I don't mean to belittle these shocking accidents at all but it is worth remembering that even with the tipper trucks etc you are still much more likely to die cycling on country roads. As various other people said, London is actually quite safe because of low speeds and safety in numbers (drivers do expect cyclists to be around so usually are looking for us).
If we could just cut down the tipper/cement/skip truck incidents the London would be really good. Honestly I don't know what the answer is but I (like many of us here I suspect) do try to spread the defensive cycling message to anyone I speak to about commuting by bike. I accept that cycling education and best practice will never reach everyone but I also don't think Governments, haulage companies or transport planners can fix it for us (even if they can help).0 -
Lack of experience and/or education is where perception of risk is different from the reality:
- Until you (nearly) go over the bonnet of a right-turning car coming through a hidden gap in the stationary traffic, you think that filtering through stationary traffic is pretty safe.
- Until you’re (nearly) alongside the van that suddenly swerves left onto the pavement to avoid a car that’s sitting mid-road and indicating right, you think that being on the left of the van while there’s no left turning is pretty safe.
- etc etc.
One of the great shames of life is that it takes 5 years to get 5 years of experience.
Actually you can fast forward your learning by watching the videos people link to on here. The first point you mention had never crossed my mind until I saw it happen to someone on this forum.0 -
I worked as a courier in my late teens / early twenties. I don't know what the exact figures are but it seems like there's more than double the number of cyclists on the road in the 12 odd years since then, and quite frankly some people should not be cycling in London period.
HGV's are deadly. So much so that after a death at another company, my controller at the time actually got a rep from a haulage company in to highlight all the blind spots and describe how hard it was for them to manoeuvre through London. Technology's moved on a bit from then but so has the number of road users, and pretty much everyday I see at least one cyclist do something batsh!t crazy.
But it's the little things that bug me just as much, because they can so easily escalate. I like to try and maintain a zone around myself for braking or general evasive action. But when you slow to give yourself space between you and a slowing car, someone else overtakes and then sits in the space between you and the cars bumper? Completely cutting off your options... Or people you've overtaken catching you at lights and then fanning out to sit alongside you. The traffic starts and now they are under pressure from cars, and attempting to pass that pressure on you.
It's just examples that show people in too much of a hurry. People cycling outside their comfort zone. If you're late you should of left earlier.... If you want to race, go find a track.... It ain't rocket scienceCannondale caad7 ultegra
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Brother Swift0 -
You can't expect everyone to always adhere to that though, so that's not a solution.
There's no license to ride bikes, nor do I think there should be, so you can't expect all riders to ride as if they have years of experience under their belt.
It's not like those who do have licenses understand it either.
I got shouted at yesterday by a taxi driver as I was waiting to turn right. There was oncoming traffic so I was stationary towards the right hand side of the lane - as you would be if you wanted to turn right.
Said taxi driver was 'get out of the f*cking road you f*cking c*nt' - and he's a guy who in theory is much more highly qualified to be on the road than your average car driver, let alone cyclist.
So that's not the solution, and putting emphasis on that side is beginning to sound a little heading toward victim blaming.
You can't expect every rider to ride like an experienced 10 year long commuter, so I don't think it's helpful saying 'if only they all rode like they had 10 years of experience'. It's not their fault they don't have the experience.0 -
Sometimes it's not about the length of experience but about taught habits that make that experience, good and bad. One persons bad habits can then be spread amongst others who then think it's the norm or excepted
The reason I never jump lights anymore isn't because it's always dangerous, it's because I'm aware of the perception it gives to other road users. The same should apply to all our actions I believe. Riding a bike gives us more freedom than any other road user but unless we use the road in a more uniform way, ie more predictably, then accidents are more likely to happen. There are rules regarding cars so that they don't climb all over each other. Unfortunately without the same rules for cyclists, we often put ourselves first, without due consideration of how are actions effect those around us.
I'm not advocating some type of licensing system for cyclists. I'm just highlighting the depressing fact that humans often seem to need to be told or controlled in some way so as to work as a collective rather than selfishly.Cannondale caad7 ultegra
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Brother Swift0 -
A good thread this. I have been commuting for just over a year and can remember my early experiences when I had at least one close shave per journey. I sometimes think I should try and advise/coach dangerous cyclists but am put off by the thought of getting an abusive reply0
